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No more POV, or are there?


protar

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(but if I have to choose, I'd like a few Euron chapters - a pity we'll never get to understand the only interesting Greyjoy, it's unfair he'll remain just another mad guy in a mad world...)

Totally agree !

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I think we will need no new POV in KL. The only way I see Cersei leaving is when she burns it to the ground.

For the rest, I only want a new POV with Obara and Ser Balon, but a prologue or epilogue would suffice it.

I wasn't suggesting that Cersei leave KL, just that it's such a multifacted location that we need at least 2 POV's to cover it.

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If Marg wins her trial, my money is on a Marg epilogue. We'll get a brief glance into Tyrell plans, but not enough to reveal too much, and then Cersei (who has been found innocent in her own trial, but is still a fallen queen in the eyes of the public) will pay her a visit as she tucks herself into bed, after supposedly being shipped off to Casterly Rock. She'll kill Marg and leave with a sinister smirk, thinking she's killed off the "more beautiful queen".

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If Marg wins her trial, my money is on a Marg epilogue. We'll get a brief glance into Tyrell plans, but not enough to reveal too much, and then Cersei (who has been found innocent in her own trial, but is still a fallen queen in the eyes of the public) will pay her a visit as she tucks herself into bed, after supposedly being shipped off to Casterly Rock. She'll kill Marg and leave with a sinister smirk, thinking she's killed off the "more beautiful queen".

It's as good a guess as any. I don't really know if we'll even get an epilogue though. We could instead, for example get like a single Bran chapter revealing some big secret (I don't think Bran will be a POV otherwise but hey there's another thread for that.). A Margaery epilogue would be good though, although I'd like her to survive. Would be good if she was the more beautiful queen.

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I wasn't suggesting that Cersei leave KL, just that it's such a multifacted location that we need at least 2 POV's to cover it.

You weren't. But there are many who believe she will.

Also, I don't feel the need of another POV in KL at the moment. If Cersei isn't broken, she will keep tabs at the small council and and the Faith. And it's more interesting to see the Sand Snakes from the outside; it keeps them more mysterious. Only Obara seems simple enough at the moment.

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I think we should assume Martin will add at least two POVs, even if they're brief. The question is less who he adds and more who he takes away.

With all the established POV characters we have plus one or two semi-new that are definitely continuing in WoW (Theon, Arianne), Martin's either not giving POV chapters to some people or he's writing a 2000+page book.

Many people are either desperately hoping or genuinely believe Brienne and Jaime are going to be written out early into WoW (shortly followed by the Hunter, Mage, and Death Knight) and if that does occur that'd be two POVs down. Davos will most likely be written out or die after retrieving the Stark Childs. Bran isn't likely to get many explicit POV chapters though he'll get a few, plus lots of mysterious winds and trees blowing to get us all jumping up and down speculating on what he's up to.

Guh. Short of a J.K. Rowling 'Must Kill All Characters' rampage I get the feeling Winds might be pretty damn unwieldy. So many plotlines juggling in the air and so few of them anywhere near obvious completion (unless Jaime/Brienne are about to die).

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Well to reiterate here are some calcualtions I did, copy pasted from the other POV thread.

I've been doing a little bit of thinking about how Martin can give us a more even spread of POV's as in the older books, and while my maths isn't great, I think it could work. Lets say TWOW is absolutely huge, like 1100 pages (I think that's just about doable.). Martin's chapters average 10 pages but due to some being quite a bit longer (and fewer being shorter.) lets make that 100 chapters. 98 excluding the prologue and epilogue. Now lets say we've got 16 main POV's. For each of them to have 5 chapters each we'd need aproximately 80 chapters. So by that maths we could have each POV have five chapters and then the remaining 18 could be distributed around the characters that require more. Then the remaining two are the prologue and the epilogue. So five chapters would be the absolute minimum amount of chapters for the POV characters. And for maximum profit we could get 16 POV's and 110 chapters, leaving 28 spare chapters to be distributed. I have no idea if that checks out as my maths skills are awful but it seems good to me. So using the absolute most amount of chapters (110 (including prologue and epilogue with 16 main POV's,)

Edit: I made some maths miscalculations so I'll do them tomorrow. But the POV's without chapter numbers will be I think:

Dany

Tyrion

Jon

Sansa

Cersei

Theon

Jaime

Arianne

Melisandre

Tyene

Arya

Victarion

Davos

Aeron

Samwell

Griff

Obara (prologue so my calculations account for her.)

An unknown epilogue (again calculations account for them.)

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We only had two epilogues so far, so I'm not sure Winds will have one!

That's true of course. I think if Winds doesn't have an official epilogue it will instead have a single Bran chapter, where some major secret is revealed.

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It is pretty crazy how badly I want a Howland Reed chapter just to know what happened at the Tower of Joy.

I think its pretty accepted in the fandom that he will never have POV, and also Wylla won't get a POV. They know too much.

Guh. Short of a J.K. Rowling 'Must Kill All Characters' rampage I get the feeling Winds might be pretty damn unwieldy. So many plotlines juggling in the air and so few of them anywhere near obvious completion (unless Jaime/Brienne are about to die).

I think George RR Martin will handle everything perfectly. There are lots of POVs that will be unnecessary. Like Barristan the only reason he is a POV is because Dany was the only POV in Mereen, and once she left Martin needed a POV in Mereen to explain things. Quentyn was dead from the beginning. I don;t see why we might need a Asha POV if Theon is in the same place.

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I think George RR Martin will handle everything perfectly. There are lots of POVs that will be unnecessary. Like Barristan the only reason he is a POV is because Dany was the only POV in Mereen, and once she left Martin needed a POV in Mereen to explain things. Quentyn was dead from the beginning. I don;t see why we might need a Asha POV if Theon is in the same place.

The question is: how long will they be at the same place? If Theon takes the black, he will be sent to Castle Black. If he dies, well, he won't be a POV anymore. Anyways, he won't fight, so the only way we can see the battle of Ice from the POV of a fighter.

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The question is: how long will they be at the same place? If Theon takes the black, he will be sent to Castle Black. If he dies, well, he won't be a POV anymore. Anyways, he won't fight, so the only way we can see the battle of Ice from the POV of a fighter.

Who says we need to see it from the POV of a fighter? And besides what about Jon? or rather Ghost. I think they've got some stuff to do around Winterfell. I think Theon is headed to The Wall (not necessarily as a black brother.) but not for some time after the battle of ice. And there's still Davos to take into account. He could be back at any time. And even without him, it would hardly be the first time we can't see what Stannis is up to. Asha simply isn't necessary

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Who says we need to see it from the POV of a fighter? And besides what about Jon? or rather Ghost. I think they've got some stuff to do around Winterfell. I think Theon is headed to The Wall (not necessarily as a black brother.) but not for some time after the battle of ice. And there's still Davos to take into account. He could be back at any time. And even without him, it would hardly be the first time we can't see what Stannis is up to. Asha simply isn't necessary

First, a POV from a fighter during a battle is always interesting. You want to see the fall of SE so much, why not the battle of ice?

Second, Jon is dead, or almost so. Our POV at the Wall is Melisandre. I hope Jon comes back as a POV, but there is also the chance that he never will, just as what happened to Cat. And I wasn't saying Theon will go to Castle Black immesiatly, but there is the possibility.

Third, Davos is going to Skagos. I really wish to see a few chapters there, so no Davos with Stannis until halfway through the book.

Fourth, Stannis is one of the 4 kings and I want to see what are they doing in this book. We don't need someone with him all the time, but it would be great to see what he does after conquering Winterfell, if he does, of course.

Lastly, I really like Asha as a character and enjoyed her POVs. I don't want to see a full arc around her, but few chapters, to get a vision we wouldn't have otherwise would be nice. You, Protar, seems to think that all POVs should have a full arc, or at least as many chapters as possible. I think GRRM should use the ones he has the best way possible, even if that means to have a single chapter for one character. I think Asha will stay as a secondary POV, with a few chapters to show what is happening around her and what she is doing. It's better than add a POV of a character that should be menacing and under a disguise in a city where we already have a stabilished POV.

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He has made it through five books without needing to look in on the faith, so I don't see why he would need to start now when it is also contrary to a statement he made about no new POVs.

I think Cersei is just going to have more POVs than most of the other chapters, and she is going even crazier when she realizes she has one sandsnake on the small council and sees another with her dealings with the faith. Cersie's POV will be by far the most interesting way to reveal what is going on with those three characters along with Frankengregor. This mentality of needing a first person glance at every event is what got his POVs out of control in the first place.

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I do wonder what happens if YG conquers King's Landing. Because that would probably mean we lose Cersei as a pov, and than we would only have Jon Connington, whose disease is spreading so fast I barely see him surviving the battle in KL. So who would be our pov? Would we have to depend on Arianne, or is that the place where Martin might decide he needs a new character to tell the story?

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He has made it through five books without needing to look in on the faith, so I don't see why he would need to start now when it is also contrary to a statement he made about no new POVs. I think Cersei is just going to have more POVs than most of the other chapters, and she is going even crazier when she realizes she has one sandsnake on the small council and sees another with her dealings with the faith. Cersie's POV will be by far the most interesting way to reveal what is going on with those three characters along with Frankengregor. This mentality of needing a first person glance at every event is what got his POVs out of control in the first place.

Yes it would contradict Martin's statement on no POV's but I distinctly remember him saying ADWD would be out a year after AFFC. Me breaks his promises on schedules all the time so there is no reason to take his word on this one. He will try to not add POV's I'm sure but if he feels it's necessary he will.

The reason we haven't had a POV in The Faith before now is because it's only in AFFC that it's been stirring up, and in Feast we had Cersei as a captive of The HS. Now Cersei is free, and her political power is significantly reduced. Furthermore Tyene would add to the political intrigue as well as The Faith. AFFC's is the only book with only 1 POV in KL (even Dance had Kevan.) and while I enjoyed her chapters I felt the location was missing something: Another POV. And as to those that say having a Tyene POV would ruin the menacing nature of the sand snakes and The Faith, the same could be said for Cersei. She's gone from being a significant threat to being almost laughable. And it was amazing. Not saying Tyene should be made laughable, just that Martin can pull this off.

First, a POV from a fighter during a battle is always interesting. You want to see the fall of SE so much, why not the battle of ice? Second, Jon is dead, or almost so. Our POV at the Wall is Melisandre. I hope Jon comes back as a POV, but there is also the chance that he never will, just as what happened to Cat. And I wasn't saying Theon will go to Castle Black immesiatly, but there is the possibility. Third, Davos is going to Skagos. I really wish to see a few chapters there, so no Davos with Stannis until halfway through the book. Fourth, Stannis is one of the 4 kings and I want to see what are they doing in this book. We don't need someone with him all the time, but it would be great to see what he does after conquering Winterfell, if he does, of course. Lastly, I really like Asha as a character and enjoyed her POVs. I don't want to see a full arc around her, but few chapters, to get a vision we wouldn't have otherwise would be nice. You, Protar, seems to think that all POVs should have a full arc, or at least as many chapters as possible. I think GRRM should use the ones he has the best way possible, even if that means to have a single chapter for one character. I think Asha will stay as a secondary POV, with a few chapters to show what is happening around her and what she is doing. It's better than add a POV of a character that should be menacing and under a disguise in a city where we already have a stabilished POV.

I do want to see the Battle of ice, more than the fall of SE's. I'm just saying that it doesn't need to be from a fighter's POV. Look at all the battles with Tyrion as the POV. Sure he's not completely useless but he's not a fighter. We could easily have Theon sneaking around Winterfell during the battle, stabbing at people and such.

I think we're definitely getting a Jon POV. His situation is very different to that of Uncat. Firstly she was rotting in a river for three days before being ressurected, which is why she turned so crazy. Jon's body can be preserved in the ice cells and his mind through warging. I think being ressurected will have effects more like with Beric than with Cat. And to clarify with what I meant, I think that for a lot of the book Jon will warg into Ghost and head towards Winterfell. Depending on when certain events play out, Ghost!Jon could easily be there for the battle of ice. As a Direwolf!

I agree that Davos probably won't be at the battle, but he could arrive later (Although is anyone else getting a bad feeling about him?).

I too want to see what Stannis is up to, but sometimes it's not going to be practical for the story or necessary. Besides which I think Theon will be staying at Winterfell for some time after the battle so we can see what Stannis is doing. Then if Davos does survive, he can arrive shortly after Theon leaves. No need for Asha.

I liked Asha as well and I would like to see more of her as a POV, but I just think it will bloat the story to much. I just don't like all these characters with like 1 or 2 chapters, it just makes the books feel fragmented. IMO each POV character should have at least 5 chapters and their own arc. Maybe if Asha lives past TWOW (Though I don't think so :(.) She can return as a POV once three or four have been killed off. But at the moment she's in the same area as Theon, with possibly Jon and Davos making their way to Winterfell as well and maybe even Melisandre at somepoint . All four of these are more important to the story to Asha so unfortunately logic dictates she will be displaced unless Martin wants a ridiculously bloated story.

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I'm getting tired of this discussion, but let's try one more time.

Yes it would contradict Martin's statement on no POV's but I distinctly remember him saying ADWD would be out a year after AFFC. Me breaks his promises on schedules all the time so there is no reason to take his word on this one. He will try to not add POV's I'm sure but if he feels it's necessary he will.

Okay, I get it. You don't trust GRRM. Many people don't. But I don't think you should give up on him before he even tries. It's too early to tell if he'll need another POV, but when it happens, he will say so and we can discuss this further.

The reason we haven't had a POV in The Faith before now is because it's only in AFFC that it's been stirring up, and in Feast we had Cersei as a captive of The HS. Now Cersei is free, and her political power is significantly reduced. Furthermore Tyene would add to the political intrigue as well as The Faith. AFFC's is the only book with only 1 POV in KL (even Dance had Kevan.) and while I enjoyed her chapters I felt the location was missing something: Another POV. And as to those that say having a Tyene POV would ruin the menacing nature of the sand snakes and The Faith, the same could be said for Cersei. She's gone from being a significant threat to being almost laughable. And it was amazing. Not saying Tyene should be made laughable, just that Martin can pull this off.

A few things. Cersei wasn't the only POV in KL in AFfC. Jaime was there for two or three chapters, more than Kevan was in ADwD.

Also, I don't think we need Tyene at all. The most important thing about KL is the small council meetings. If Cersei manages to stay as one of the councelors, that will be enough. We don't need a view inside the Faith because the new High Septon seems very simple and that simplicity is what makes him dangerous. And Tyene seems to be the most dangerous and deceiving of the Sand Snakes and she should remain so, so we can't trust any of the septas in KL.

I do want to see the Battle of ice, more than the fall of SE's. I'm just saying that it doesn't need to be from a fighter's POV. Look at all the battles with Tyrion as the POV. Sure he's not completely useless but he's not a fighter. We could easily have Theon sneaking around Winterfell during the battle, stabbing at people and such.

Tyrion comanded his own troops. He wielded an axe. He killed people. He was injured and almost lost his head. So he was a fighter. He fought both battles, which I doubt Theon will do at the moment. Hopefully, he can still shoot his bow (I'm not sure how many fingers you need), but he won't in the battle of Ice. There should be no way he can survive and still fight for Stannis at the moment.

I think we're definitely getting a Jon POV. His situation is very different to that of Uncat. Firstly she was rotting in a river for three days before being ressurected, which is why she turned so crazy. Jon's body can be preserved in the ice cells and his mind through warging. I think being ressurected will have effects more like with Beric than with Cat. And to clarify with what I meant, I think that for a lot of the book Jon will warg into Ghost and head towards Winterfell. Depending on when certain events play out, Ghost!Jon could easily be there for the battle of ice. As a Direwolf!

I hope we get a Jon POV. And not as Ghost. Okay, maybe one. And we have to remember that Beric did change after his death. He became more focused on his mission and forgot his life before. We can't see that as well because he never did anything before. Or at least, that's what Martin said in one of the SSM.

I too want to see what Stannis is up to, but sometimes it's not going to be practical for the story or necessary. Besides which I think Theon will be staying at Winterfell for some time after the battle so we can see what Stannis is doing. Then if Davos does survive, he can arrive shortly after Theon leaves. No need for Asha.

Stannis has to go to the Nightfort at some point, so he won't linger long, i guess.

I liked Asha as well and I would like to see more of her as a POV, but I just think it will bloat the story to much. I just don't like all these characters with like 1 or 2 chapters, it just makes the books feel fragmented. IMO each POV character should have at least 5 chapters and their own arc. Maybe if Asha lives past TWOW (Though I don't think so :(.) She can return as a POV once three or four have been killed off. But at the moment she's in the same area as Theon, with possibly Jon and Davos making their way to Winterfell as well and maybe even Melisandre at somepoint . All four of these are more important to the story to Asha so unfortunately logic dictates she will be displaced unless Martin wants a ridiculously bloated story.

This is a matter of taste. I won't change your opinion on this. But for me, it's more enjoyable to have a few chapters of some interesting characters, than focusing in a smaller amount of neverchanging ones. For example: I enjoyed much more JonCon's chapters in ADwD, who only had 2 of them, than Brienne story in AFfC. And I liked Brienne, but 8 chapters were too much. And GRRM could also pull a region arc, like the Dorne arc and the Iron Islands in AFfC, where multiple (in both cases, 3) POVs narrated a single event and its consequences. I think that's what will happen in Meeren.

And to end my part in this discussion, I don't think Asha needs many chapters. Her part in the series is already decided, but it's fun to see some things from her POV.

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