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Best Aegon is a Blackfyre insane-evidence EVER


jurble

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The Golden Company has alot of reasons to invade westeros. many people in the golden company are exiled from westeros and want to go home. many in the Golden Company want lands, titles, wealth and so on. i dont think they care if it is blackfyre or targ.

HedgeWizard, I don't agree with you on this.

The motives you describe may all be correct. But if they have that many reasons, why didn't they do so before? They have been exiled for more than a century. During that time, they ever only came close to returning to Westeros when they were led by a Blackfyre with a claim to the throne. For instance Maelys in the Ninepenny's kings war.

Your argument is the same as JC/Griff believes, but we only get this from his POV. And in my opinion Griff is not the sharpest of observers. His observations are a lot of times heavily coloured by his emotions, his opinions, and his memories.

Not not to forget that it is repeatedly said of the GC that they never break their contract, in contrast to the other free companies. However, it is also said, that they are (only) supposed to break their contract when there is a Blackfyre who makes a claim to the Iron throne around - their mission statement, so to speak.

All this put together it struck me as very odd that the higher officers of GC would now support a Targaryen claimant. Some of them are not Westerosi. I think that the arguments of land and plunder are used for some of those, and that only the commander (Strickland) and maybe one or two of his seconds know the real deal.

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By the way , is there any known heir for Bitterstill ? he is the founder of the GC , so if he has a heir ( mail of female lines) - the heir may play some rule in this plot.

It may be Varys or Illyrio

Also , when thinking of it - I'm not sure if Varys ever did anything for Dany. Illyrio arrange the marrige and send Selmy and the ships.

At best, Varys gave him information

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Also , when thinking of it - I'm not sure if Varys ever did anything for Dany. Illyrio arrange the marrige and send Selmy and the ships.

At best, Varys gave him information

Well, Varys warned Jorah of the impending assassination attempt on Dany so that he could save her. Alright, he arranged the assassination in the first place, but he was ordered to do so... another master of whisperers might have sent the assassin but not the saviour.

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HedgeWizard, I don't agree with you on this.

The motives you describe may all be correct. But if they have that many reasons, why didn't they do so before? They have been exiled for more than a century. During that time, they ever only came close to returning to Westeros when they were led by a Blackfyre with a claim to the throne. For instance Maelys in the Ninepenny's kings war.

Your argument is the same as JC/Griff believes, but we only get this from his POV. And in my opinion Griff is not the sharpest of observers. His observations are a lot of times heavily coloured by his emotions, his opinions, and his memories.

Not not to forget that it is repeatedly said of the GC that they never break their contract, in contrast to the other free companies. However, it is also said, that they are (only) supposed to break their contract when there is a Blackfyre who makes a claim to the Iron throne around - their mission statement, so to speak.

All this put together it struck me as very odd that the higher officers of GC would now support a Targaryen claimant. Some of them are not Westerosi. I think that the arguments of land and plunder are used for some of those, and that only the commander (Strickland) and maybe one or two of his seconds know the real deal.

They're mercenaries, they dont care who they fought for as long as the money is right. The Golden Company has only tried to invade westeros once under a blackfyre. And right now westeros is in total shambles, so it is a perfect time for anyone to invade. Though i believe that aegon is a blackfyre i think you're reading to much into the whole golden company would only follow a blackfyre never a targ. its pretty unlikely all the higher ups of the golden company know aegon's true identity and Jon Connington, the person closest to him, has no idea.

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1. Send Dany and Viserys with the Dothraki to get rid of them. Dany survives and could get her husband to invade Westeros. Proceed to ...

2. Let the Dothraki and Robert decimate each other, leaving both sides weakened. Aegon swoops in and saves the day. Drogo dies before this happens and Dany goes to Slaver's Bay. Proceed to ...

3. Send Aegon to Slaver's Bay to try to win Dany and her dragons to his side. This is still about Aegon being king, even though he wants to win Dany's support and the dragons, plus her sheen of legitimacy. But Aegon says no, I want to go to Westeros. Proceed to ...

4. Aegon takes Storm's End, declares himself and, apparently, does his best to snap up the support of the powerful bannermen. If he's successful, he doesn't even need Dany anymore, and if people believe he's real, his claim trumps hers anyway.

So while the plan may have shifted based on realities, it was always about Aegon, not Dany.

I agree that the focus is on Aegon, but I think that Dany always played a very central role in Illyrio's plans for Aegon. Sending Dany and Viserys off with the Dothraki was about getting rid of Viserys, not his sister. Firstly, Dany has classic Targ looks. It would be useful to have her around to cement in people's minds that Aegon indeed looks like a Targ. Secondly, you don't waste priceless Targ eggs by sending them with someone you expect to die. Even if Illyrio could never guess the eggs might hatch, it's clear that he was still anxious to ensure that Dany be awarded prominent symbols of her Targaryen ancestry. The marriage between Aegon and Dany was a primary goal IMO as well. The marriage to Drogo was necessary to secure the Dothraki warriors, but after this, if war hadn't taken care of Drogo, Varys might have.

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I agree that the focus is on Aegon, but I think that Dany always played a very central role in Illyrio's plans for Aegon. Sending Dany and Viserys off with the Dothraki was about getting rid of Viserys, not his sister. Firstly, Dany has classic Targ looks. It would be useful to have her around to cement in people's minds that Aegon indeed looks like a Targ. Secondly, you don't waste priceless Targ eggs by sending them with someone you expect to die. Even if Illyrio could never guess the eggs might hatch, it's clear that he was still anxious to ensure that Dany be awarded prominent symbols of her Targaryen ancestry. The marriage between Aegon and Dany was a primary goal IMO as well. The marriage to Drogo was necessary to secure the Dothraki warriors, but after this, if war hadn't taken care of Drogo, Varys might have.

Except that Illyrio tells Tyrion he expected Dany to die, too. Was he lying?

Someone posed the idea that Illyrio gave Dany the eggs for Drogo's benefit, to prove to him that Dany really was something "special." Drogo paid extremely well for her, and on a continent when half the whores in Lys apparently look like Dany, I can see why he might want a little extra insurance.

And I'm not arguing that, eventually, Dany became a piece of the puzzle. My point was that her role was always about hoisting up Aegon and putting Aegon on the throne. They were always using her.

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:agree:

And about the eggs... I always assumed Illyrio only gave them to Daenerys as a way of, say, proving his friendship. It's an expensive gift, they had no idea those eggs could be hatched, and it was not hard to guess a 13-year-old would develop an emotional connection to them as last reminders of her line. Therefore, she would probably be softer and be easier to control/follow their plan if she survived and they needed her for putting YG on the Throne. Only she changed too much and became everything but an easy to control girl. Their plans backfired, like so many others on this series.

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Except that Illyrio tells Tyrion he expected Dany to die, too. Was he lying?

Someone posed the idea that Illyrio gave Dany the eggs for Drogo's benefit, to prove to him that Dany really was something "special." Drogo paid extremely well for her, and on a continent when half the whores in Lys apparently look like Dany, I can see why he might want a little extra insurance.

And I'm not arguing that, eventually, Dany became a piece of the puzzle. My point was that her role was always about hoisting up Aegon and putting Aegon on the throne. They were always using her.

But would team blackfyre really want Aegon's wife to be a targaryan? I mean there is serious hatred between them. The dragons screwed everything up. It's my belief that Illyrio wanted Viserys and Dany to invade westeros with the dothraki. Robert and the dragons would seriously wound each other maybe Viserys and Dany win. Then Aegon comes in to save the day from the awful invaders. Thus forever tainting the name targaryan and forever embellishing the name blackfyre. that may just be wishful thinking.

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But would team blackfyre really want Aegon's wife to be a targaryan? I mean there is serious hatred between them.

Yes, if they want to pass off a Blackfyre as a Targaryen. That's why they need Dany — if she says Aegon is Aegon, who's going to argue?

The dragons screwed everything up. It's my belief that Illyrio wanted Viserys and Dany to invade westeros with the dothraki. Robert and the dragons would seriously wound each other maybe Viserys and Dany win. Then Aegon comes in to save the day from the awful invaders. Thus forever tainting the name targaryan and forever embellishing the name blackfyre. that may just be wishful thinking.

I think this was Plan B. Plan A was for Viserys and Dany to just die.

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Plan A was for Viserys and Dany to just die.

Nope, don't agree. If they originally wanted them to die, they would have taken care of that a lot earlier, and in a much more secure way. It is not logical to groom them, keep their dreams alive, then sell them and hope (but not be sure of it) that they die - for no purpose. If you have no purpose for them and want them to die, just kill them straight away...

Varys and Illyrio needed Dothraki to invade Westeros, and that was dany's and viserys' original part, plan A so to speak. Varys and Illyrio talked about this very early on. Dothraki would never have invaded Westeros if both Dany and Viserys were already dead. At least one of them needed to stay alive, at least until after a Dothraki invasion of Westeros.

I do agree they didn't give a rat's ass for Viserys chances (for the throne, for surviving, for whatever) from the outset. But Dany was a different story, so chances are they favored Dany much more for survival than Viserys. They must have thought that through Dany they would have more leverage on Drogo, than through Viserys.

And when they found out that Dany had become a dragon mum, she became (even more) the number one must-have ally for Aegon, and plan B sprung into action.

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But would team blackfyre really want Aegon's wife to be a targaryan? I mean there is serious hatred between them. The dragons screwed everything up. It's my belief that Illyrio wanted Viserys and Dany to invade westeros with the dothraki. Robert and the dragons would seriously wound each other maybe Viserys and Dany win. Then Aegon comes in to save the day from the awful invaders. Thus forever tainting the name targaryan and forever embellishing the name blackfyre. that may just be wishful thinking.

I would think they might, particularly as a way of closing off the divergent bloodlines in to one undisputed line. Plus as the Blackfyre line comes from a claim through a female Targaryen there is sort of a nice coming full circle of using a female Targaryen again to secure the throne.

That said I agree with Apple that involving Dany as Aegon's bride really was Plan B and that Plan A was to just have Dany and Viserys die at some point after they ceased to be useful (at a minimum they were a good way to keep eyes off Aegon though I think they would have played a bigger role in Plan A if it hadn't been derailed by several things). I certainly don't think Dany was thought of as a player in all this (vs. a piece to move around the board) until she'd hatched the dragons and that beyond anything changed the plans.

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Varys and Illyrio needed Dothraki to invade Westeros, and that was dany's and viserys' original part, plan A so to speak. Varys and Illyrio talked about this very early on. Dothraki would never have invaded Westeros if both Dany and Viserys were already dead. At least one of them needed to stay alive, at least until after a Dothraki invasion of Westeros.

I don't remember that - is it in the conversation Arya overhears? (sorry, I don't have the books here...)

But if it's true, that's the most important proof that Varys doesn't really care that much about the welfare of Westeros. Imagine all the chaos that would follow a dothraki invasion... :shocked:

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They're mercenaries, they dont care who they fought for as long as the money is right. The Golden Company has only tried to invade westeros once under a blackfyre. And right now westeros is in total shambles, so it is a perfect time for anyone to invade. Though i believe that aegon is a blackfyre i think you're reading to much into the whole golden company would only follow a blackfyre never a targ. its pretty unlikely all the higher ups of the golden company know aegon's true identity and Jon Connington, the person closest to him, has no idea.

Except that all other anyones are turning to Meereen were there is certain money is to be made, and not to Westeros with a much more uncertain outcome, even in shambles. (Tyrell's army and the Dornishmen both still have much greater numbers...)

Jon Connington is the tragic hero who thinks he is helping his old friend's (and love interest's) son, but is not aware he's being played like a fool by both Illyrio and Harry Strickland. JC kan hardly be seen as a shrewd tactician and keen observer... In his own POV perhaps he thinks he is, but when he is being observed by Tyrion he appears rather rigid and foolhardy.

Why would careful, calculating Harry Strickland agree with breaking a contract and follow a very uncertain scheme, more so when the scheme is supposed to come from a Targ? All very unlikely from the beginning, and it gets more unlikely with every next move the GC makes. Except when Strickland and perhaps some other officers know (from Illyrio) that Aegon is not a Targ but a Blackfyre.

I haven't got any real proof, of course. But it still all makes more sense to me when some of the GC brass knows that Aegon is a BF.

(Except of course if they were double crossed too by Illyrio, and only think that Aegon is a BF. Perhaps Aegon has no Targ/BF blood at all... But so far the zealousness with which Aegon's cause is fought for by both Varys and Illyrio indicates to me that he is a BF.)

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I don't remember that - is it in the conversation Arya overhears? (sorry, I don't have the books here...)

But if it's true, that's the most important proof that Varys doesn't really care that much about the welfare of Westeros. Imagine all the chaos that would follow a dothraki invasion... :shocked:

Yes it is.

And I don't have the books here either, but in my memory that conversation occurs very early on in the story. That is where I deduct from that Dany's role always was to procure the Dothraki.

The good of the realm is not necessarily the same as the immediate future welfare of Westeros...

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He gives the eggs as proof of friendship, and then you would think Viserys or Danny could sell them for boats, and other provisions to get their dothraki army over to westeros. But the 13 yo girl gets obsessed with them, and their plan there goes to pot.

If he is a Blackfyre, they have to admit that he is a Blackfyre or else what is the point of putting him on the throne. That a handful know that he is a Blackfyre? That is not what their revolutions were about, its about putting a Blackfyre on the throne, the kings with the sword, not a fake targ.

Jon C, will go with this for awhile until he realizes the ruse. Then he will somehow learn about Jon Snow, who is named after him, thus proving his parentage, and then its on like Donkey Kong all over again. JonCon is such a tragic hero, poor guy.

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He gives the eggs as proof of friendship, and then you would think Viserys or Danny could sell them for boats, and other provisions to get their dothraki army over to westeros. But the 13 yo girl gets obsessed with them, and their plan there goes to pot.

If he is a Blackfyre, they have to admit that he is a Blackfyre or else what is the point of putting him on the throne. That a handful know that he is a Blackfyre? That is not what their revolutions were about, its about putting a Blackfyre on the throne, the kings with the sword, not a fake targ.

Jon C, will go with this for awhile until he realizes the ruse. Then he will somehow learn about Jon Snow, who is named after him, thus proving his parentage, and then its on like Donkey Kong all over again. JonCon is such a tragic hero, poor guy.

Maybe that is what "the good of the realm" is all about. Putting a Blackfyre on the throne with the populace thinking he is a (good) Targaryen.

Blackfyres always thought that they were more fit to be and also had more right to be on the throne, than other Targs (they see themselves as the strongest Targ line, I suspect).

So the thing might be to put a Blackfyre on the throne first, and later making it known he's not a Targ but a Blackfyre, but only after the powerbase has been secured. That's one of the more important things that Aemon Blackfyre didn't do right in the first BF rebellion. The more effective move usually is: usurp first and demonstrate the rightfulness of your claim later.

Blackfyres always had many fans in Westeros, almost as many as the Targs themselves. That was why the Targs considered them to be so dangerous and were so vehement in exterminating them. Therefore a BF on a throne is not necessarily a ticking time bomb. It's just that the populace and the lords need to be convinced he is a strong and good king.

They did kneel to Aegon when he was the dominant factor, and they followed Robert when he became the alpha male on the ape-rock.

And for something completely different: JC must indeed be the most tragic figure of them all, perhaps with the exception of Doran Martel.

But I'm not sure what you mean by the parentage of Jon Snow. Rhaegar, or JonCon himself (who is supposed to be gay...) ?Please elaborate.

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Except that all other anyones are turning to Meereen were there is certain money is to be made, and not to Westeros with a much more uncertain outcome, even in shambles. (Tyrell's army and the Dornishmen both still have much greater numbers...)

Jon Connington is the tragic hero who thinks he is helping his old friend's (and love interest's) son, but is not aware he's being played like a fool by both Illyrio and Harry Strickland. JC kan hardly be seen as a shrewd tactician and keen observer... In his own POV perhaps he thinks he is, but when he is being observed by Tyrion he appears rather rigid and foolhardy.

Why would careful, calculating Harry Strickland agree with breaking a contract and follow a very uncertain scheme, more so when the scheme is supposed to come from a Targ? All very unlikely from the beginning, and it gets more unlikely with every next move the GC makes. Except when Strickland and perhaps some other officers know (from Illyrio) that Aegon is not a Targ but a Blackfyre.

I haven't got any real proof, of course. But it still all makes more sense to me when some of the GC brass knows that Aegon is a BF.

(Except of course if they were double crossed too by Illyrio, and only think that Aegon is a BF. Perhaps Aegon has no Targ/BF blood at all... But so far the zealousness with which Aegon's cause is fought for by both Varys and Illyrio indicates to me that he is a BF.)

Many in the GC are exiles or the son of exiles and are longing to return home just like Dany...and Viserys. If some Targ or Blackfyre claimant arrives then the GC would jump the bandwagon just to go back home and get rewards for helping said claimant.

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Except that all other anyones are turning to Meereen were there is certain money is to be made, and not to Westeros with a much more uncertain outcome, even in shambles. (Tyrell's army and the Dornishmen both still have much greater numbers...)

Jon Connington is the tragic hero who thinks he is helping his old friend's (and love interest's) son, but is not aware he's being played like a fool by both Illyrio and Harry Strickland. JC kan hardly be seen as a shrewd tactician and keen observer... In his own POV perhaps he thinks he is, but when he is being observed by Tyrion he appears rather rigid and foolhardy.

Why would careful, calculating Harry Strickland agree with breaking a contract and follow a very uncertain scheme, more so when the scheme is supposed to come from a Targ? All very unlikely from the beginning, and it gets more unlikely with every next move the GC makes. Except when Strickland and perhaps some other officers know (from Illyrio) that Aegon is not a Targ but a Blackfyre.

I haven't got any real proof, of course. But it still all makes more sense to me when some of the GC brass knows that Aegon is a BF.

(Except of course if they were double crossed too by Illyrio, and only think that Aegon is a BF. Perhaps Aegon has no Targ/BF blood at all... But so far the zealousness with which Aegon's cause is fought for by both Varys and Illyrio indicates to me that he is a BF.)

Many in the GC are exiles or the son of exiles and are longing to return home just like Dany...and Viserys. If some Targ or Blackfyre claimant arrives then the GC would jump the bandwagon just to go back home and get rewards for helping said claimant.

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Nope, don't agree. If they originally wanted them to die, they would have taken care of that a lot earlier, and in a much more secure way. It is not logical to groom them, keep their dreams alive, then sell them and hope (but not be sure of it) that they die - for no purpose. If you have no purpose for them and want them to die, just kill them straight away...

Then how do you explain Illyrio saying that he expected Dany to die with the Dothraki? It's possible that he expected Viserys to die too and that's why he "let" Viserys go with them instead of staying in Pentos. I think they had the Dothraki plan as a back-up that ended up going into effect before it too was diverted, but it seems like sending Dany and Viserys out into the Dothraki Sea was a way to get them out of the way so that they'd be nowhere near Aegon when he arrived. When it looked like Dany could successfully get the Dothraki to invade, they switched to that plan. But neither would have been fazed if both Targs siblings had died.

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