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Crackpot- The Others and Jon Snow's fate


Morky_Pep

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Jon's Nissa nissa will be his sacrifice of the iron throne after learning he is a targ.

What do you mean by that? If it's that he'll destroy the throne with fire and Lightbringer will be revealed as one of the sword that made the throne in the first place, I would really love that! ^.^

But wouldn't he need Lightbringer before getting to the Throne?

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I agree they'll probably be shown in their complexity, but why would we need Jon for that? I think it's much more likely we'll learn more about them from Bran, who's in a good position for that, and Sam, who was already researching them at the Wall. Or maybe the maester (Marwyn?) finally reaches Daenerys (or Tyrion or Victarion, any POV character in Slaver's Bay) and explains a little more about the Others? He might know something, being into magic and all.

Ya but the problem with Bran is that hes stuck in his cave, and i kinda thought he would be used for fleshing out the past(roberts rebellion ect) and also he seems to be fiddling around in and around Winterfell, with the ravens saying Theon and there was more references to that in the sample chapter. I feel that we need to have a firsthand account, so when the others come into the main story plot, readers are intrigued and care about the outcome.

I can only see Jon learning about the Others, in two ways, either through Ghost, or Bran.

While Jon is recovering/waiting to be resurrected, he will most likely be spending that time inside Ghost. What better way to learn about the Others, save through the eyes of a Direwolf. Ghost can travel around North of the Walll relatively fast, so it will not take a lot of time. Ghost can survive such harsh conditions, and it won't be just Ghost, Jon will be capable of making the more intuitive decisions.

Or while Jon is in a "coma like state", with the help of Bloodraven Bran could communicate with Jon, thus allowing Jon to know all there is to know about the Others. Bran can now see through the Weirwoods, and there are lots of Weirwoods North of the Wall(or can Bran see through any tree?). Also not only can Bran see what the Others are doing, Bran can also look back into time, and that could offer some more valuable insight, on the Others.

I really can't buy into the whole idea that,"Jon will be resurrected, and then Jon will join the Others, to learn more about them". Number one, Jon already did that with the Wildlings, but that's not even the real reason of why that idea is so ridicules. Jon would be "resurrected" via fire, from Melisandre. So this whole idea that the Others would just accept Jon, because he is dead, or was dead... That just does not make sense. Last I checked fire is the death of ice, and the Others won't be cool with accepting someone who is resurrected "via fire". Also like I said, we have already heard that tune before, with Jon and the Wildlings. So I just really don't think there is any way in seven hells that, that will happen. Same goes for Jon becoming the "Great Other", and leading The Others..... There are so many things that do not make sense with that theory, and it would make most of Jon's story a complete waist. So if anyone honestly believes that will happen, all I can say is, really, really think about it. Like for real, and you will see it does not make any sense....at all.

Another way for Jon(and the other people fighting the Others), to learn more about the Others, is through Benjen Stark. That could be a cool way to uncover the mystery, of what happened to the missing First Ranger. For everyone to find out that Benjen has been on a black-ops- recon-mission, learning about the Others??? I think it's possible Benjen is alive, I don't know how likely it is, but it's possible. For those of us who believe Benjen is Coldhands, then it could still be Benjen educating Jon about the Others. So that would kill two birds with one stone, we learn about the Others, and what happened to Benjen Stark. I think it's possible, though I lean more on the Jon through Ghost theory, or the Jon through Bran theory myself.

How do you know he will be resurrected by fire? Obviously Castle Black is going to be in disarray after the stabbing. Maybe Melisandre cant get to Jons body and he is resurrected as a wight, but has intelligence and some of his former self like Cold Hands. Everyone trips out and tries to kill him (even Mel) and he is forced to fleee and can only get beyond the wall. At that point he would have nowhere else to go. Obviously this is very crackpot.

I do like that idea about Benjen though.

Another thing about the others is the question as to whether they are just on Westeros or affect the whole world. I mean the Red Priests know about them, but their religion(Azor Ahai) come from Asshai, so why do they care? Maybe the wights can travel across water. That note Cotter Pyke sends Jon mentions "dead things in the water". Every religion has some form of Azor Ahai. TPTWP, The Last Hero. It seems liek the Others must have an impact on the rest of the world, but nothing in the history of Essos that we have heard of so far has implied anything like that.

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I haven't read this whole thread so i don't know if this has been mentioned, but i could totally see a POV that gives us more insight about the others coming from the Prologue. GRRM did say that although he isn't adding any new POV's, that the Prologue and Epilogue don't apply. I think we could definitely see something in there, just like we saw that 7 Skins guy in the prologue but then never really saw him. Just throwin it out there...

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How do you know he will be resurrected by fire? Obviously Castle Black is going to be in disarray after the stabbing. Maybe Melisandre cant get to Jons body and he is resurrected as a wight, but has intelligence and some of his former self like Cold Hands. Everyone trips out and tries to kill him (even Mel) and he is forced to fleee and can only get beyond the wall. At that point he would have nowhere else to go. Obviously this is very crackpot.

I actually don't think Jon will be resurrected (and I hope he won't), I think Jon will simply survive his wounds(with or without magic). However in the unfortunate outcome that Jon is resurrected , I think there are strong indicators that it will be done by fire, via Melisandre.

Wasn't there an SSM, about all the resurrections (Catelyn and Beric), leading up to one huge resurrection? I don't know if I'm making this up or not, but if GRRM did say something like that, then I defenetly believe he was talking about Jon, and if he was then I believe it will be a redirection via fire. Otherwise what was the build up with Cat and Beric about?

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What do you mean by that? If it's that he'll destroy the throne with fire and Lightbringer will be revealed as one of the sword that made the throne in the first place, I would really love that! ^.^

But wouldn't he need Lightbringer before getting to the Throne?

No no i does not mean lightbringer would be a real sword. I am a believer of the theory which says nightwatch being the lightbringer and the commander of NW will be AA. First AA made 3 attempt to forge lightbringer so already jon had made his first attempt to strengthen NW and he failed. Likewise he will make two more attempt and as a 1000th LC he will make NW so strong that they will be able to defeat the other. Also Nissa Nissa does not have to be a real person it represent the thing you value most in your life and being a bastard Jon always wanted recognition he always wanted to have a decent parent. so if he cast aside the iron throne to fight the other after learning R+L =J then it will be his sacrifice equivalent to NN sacrifice.

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I have a theory, and nobody is going to like it:

Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised/The Last Hero will not be anybody in the series. Not Jon, not Stannis, not Aegon, not anybody. They will not appear.

I'm basing this on two of the most familiar tales/religious beliefs/myths known to people from Western Europe, and Britain/France in particular: those of King Arthur and of course, Jesus. You don't need to be Christian to know the prophecy about how Jesus will return in the world's greatest moment of need, that he rose from the dead on Easter after being crucified, etc. Likewise, King Arthur is also prophesied to return in Britain's greatest moment of need. King Arthur is probably the closer comparison for the return of some awesome guy in ASOIAF due to the parallels of the uber sword, and the general issue that Jesus apparently wouldn't hurt a fly, but they both serve the notion of different peoples holding beliefs that if shit hits the fan in the future, a past hero will return to bring salvation (I say different peoples because King Arthur predates Christianity in Britain, and is a Celtic hero, despite his Christianization in later adaptations of the myth). One of the titles afforded to Arthur is "The Once and Future King," which is remarkably reminiscent of "The Prince That Was Promised".

There have been countless supposed "returns" of these two men throughout history, with Jesus pretenders more common than Arthur ones. But in the time period of British history which GRRM draws on fairly heavily for his series (the Wars of the Roses), the return of King Arthur is a big question that is posed, especially at the very end, when Henry VII takes the throne in 1485. Arthurian legend was dramatically stimulated by the publication of Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur in 1485, being the most complete rendition of the mythology since Geoffey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britain in the 12th century. Malory's version is the one we grow up with, as its enormous popularity caused it to be the main source of almost every Arthurian tale published in the years after. Malory wrote the story while imprisoned, as he watched England being torn apart during the Wars of the Roses, and it is imbued with many thematic and tonal elements that reflect those events.

Now, when Henry VII comes to the throne, he has his court historians compile his ancestry, and they trace his heritage back to King Arthur, and place the original location of the city of Camelot at Winchester, the location supported by Malory's text. When it is clear that Henry's wife, Elizabeth of York (York as in the White Roses of the Wars of the Roses; Henry is descended from the Red Roses, i.e., the Lancasters... As York is in the north, and the Lancaster territories are comparatively south, I suppose a case could be made for Henry VII and Elizabeth of York being Rhaegar and Lyanna) is pregnant, Henry proclaims that she will birth a son who will bring a golden age to Britain, and he moves his entire court to Winchester (a.k.a. "Camelot") so that his son can be born there in honour of his ancestor, King Arthur, whose great feats the new heir apparent would equal. Sure enough, a baby boy is born in 1486, and Henry duly dubs him Arthur Tudor. Everyone rejoices, because Arthur has returned, and when he comes to the throne, he will heal the hurts of Britain, and be a good and gracious king, because you know, second coming and all.

Arthur grows up, and in one of the most promising of political alliances, marries Catherine of Aragon, a Princess of Spain, at the age of 15. About five months later, he dies of some sickness, which is not known, but possibly tuberculosis, or the sweating sickness. As a result, his younger brother, Henry, is made the new Prince of Wales (heir to the throne), and eventually Henry marries Catherine, his brother's widow. When Henry VII dies in 1509, the prince who was not promised is crowned King Henry VIII (as in the one with all the wives).

Now, we can try to fit all of the characters into the actual history, in which case it seems that Aegon is Prince Arthur Tudor, and then his younger brother would be Jon, who currently is repping Henry VIII (assuming that both are real); Rhaegar believed that his first son, Aegon, was TPTWP, just as Henry VII believed Arthur was the Once and Future King. In both situations, that beacon of hope is snuffed out before they reach the throne. Aegon has possibly escaped his infantile fate, but there is also the strong argument that he's fake, and I'm not going to debate for either. But if we are following the historical model I've set out here, Aegon's probably going to marry Daenerys, die of Westeros' version of sweating sickness or TB (grey scale or the Pale Mare) shortly thereafter, and then Jon marries Dany, his brother's wife. Re: IF we follow the historical model.

Regardless of whether Aegon and Jon are Arthur and Henry, or whether Aegon or Jon is supposedly TPTWP, or AA, or whatever, the history that I'm pushing here is that there never is a second coming of King Arthur. People prophecy that he's going to come back, they name princes after him, saying that they are Arthur reborn, and it is a major feature of the Wars of the Roses and the victorious Tudor dynasty. But Arthur never comes back, and I don't think AA/TPTWP will either. It doesn't mean that Aegon or Jon or whoever won't come to the throne, but the one that does won't be the returned hero.

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I think the true AA and/or TPTWP may never show up in the story. Rather, becuase of the character's knowledge of these prophecized heros, the characters are molding their decisions (conciously or unconciously) to fit into the propheicies. Many stories that deal with prophecies like the ones in ASOIAF at some point awknowledge that prophecies come true because the actors are making them come true through their choices and actions (Harry Potter being a very good example of this). Just a thought, first time posting and all...

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@Landis

I actually loved your theory and the comparisons you drew, and I don't doubt Martin might have had it in mind while creating ASoIaF. On the other hand, we're talking about a fantasy series, and like it happens in many other series, "King Arthur" could come back this time to save "Britain". Then ASoIaF would be another metaphorical "What if" story, which is a very pleasant idea, don't you think?

^ I would rather it be no one than have it be Dany. Not kidding.

:agree:

Hope she actually dies in this series, or at least returns to Slaver's Bay after whatever chaos she'll cause in Westeros...

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I have a theory, and nobody is going to like it:

Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised/The Last Hero will not be anybody in the series. Not Jon, not Stannis, not Aegon, not anybody. They will not appear.

I'm basing this on two of the most familiar tales/religious beliefs/myths known to people from Western Europe, and Britain/France in particular: those of King Arthur and of course, Jesus. You don't need to be Christian to know the prophecy about how Jesus will return in the world's greatest moment of need, that he rose from the dead on Easter after being crucified, etc. Likewise, King Arthur is also prophesied to return in Britain's greatest moment of need. King Arthur is probably the closer comparison for the return of some awesome guy in ASOIAF due to the parallels of the uber sword, and the general issue that Jesus apparently wouldn't hurt a fly, but they both serve the notion of different peoples holding beliefs that if shit hits the fan in the future, a past hero will return to bring salvation (I say different peoples because King Arthur predates Christianity in Britain, and is a Celtic hero, despite his Christianization in later adaptations of the myth). One of the titles afforded to Arthur is "The Once and Future King," which is remarkably reminiscent of "The Prince That Was Promised".

There have been countless supposed "returns" of these two men throughout history, with Jesus pretenders more common than Arthur ones. But in the time period of British history which GRRM draws on fairly heavily for his series (the Wars of the Roses), the return of King Arthur is a big question that is posed, especially at the very end, when Henry VII takes the throne in 1485. Arthurian legend was dramatically stimulated by the publication of Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur in 1485, being the most complete rendition of the mythology since Geoffey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britain in the 12th century. Malory's version is the one we grow up with, as its enormous popularity caused it to be the main source of almost every Arthurian tale published in the years after. Malory wrote the story while imprisoned, as he watched England being torn apart during the Wars of the Roses, and it is imbued with many thematic and tonal elements that reflect those events.

Now, when Henry VII comes to the throne, he has his court historians compile his ancestry, and they trace his heritage back to King Arthur, and place the original location of the city of Camelot at Winchester, the location supported by Malory's text. When it is clear that Henry's wife, Elizabeth of York (York as in the White Roses of the Wars of the Roses; Henry is descended from the Red Roses, i.e., the Lancasters... As York is in the north, and the Lancaster territories are comparatively south, I suppose a case could be made for Henry VII and Elizabeth of York being Rhaegar and Lyanna) is pregnant, Henry proclaims that she will birth a son who will bring a golden age to Britain, and he moves his entire court to Winchester (a.k.a. "Camelot") so that his son can be born there in honour of his ancestor, King Arthur, whose great feats the new heir apparent would equal. Sure enough, a baby boy is born in 1486, and Henry duly dubs him Arthur Tudor. Everyone rejoices, because Arthur has returned, and when he comes to the throne, he will heal the hurts of Britain, and be a good and gracious king, because you know, second coming and all.

Arthur grows up, and in one of the most promising of political alliances, marries Catherine of Aragon, a Princess of Spain, at the age of 15. About five months later, he dies of some sickness, which is not known, but possibly tuberculosis, or the sweating sickness. As a result, his younger brother, Henry, is made the new Prince of Wales (heir to the throne), and eventually Henry marries Catherine, his brother's widow. When Henry VII dies in 1509, the prince who was not promised is crowned King Henry VIII (as in the one with all the wives).

Now, we can try to fit all of the characters into the actual history, in which case it seems that Aegon is Prince Arthur Tudor, and then his younger brother would be Jon, who currently is repping Henry VIII (assuming that both are real); Rhaegar believed that his first son, Aegon, was TPTWP, just as Henry VII believed Arthur was the Once and Future King. In both situations, that beacon of hope is snuffed out before they reach the throne. Aegon has possibly escaped his infantile fate, but there is also the strong argument that he's fake, and I'm not going to debate for either. But if we are following the historical model I've set out here, Aegon's probably going to marry Daenerys, die of Westeros' version of sweating sickness or TB (grey scale or the Pale Mare) shortly thereafter, and then Jon marries Dany, his brother's wife. Re: IF we follow the historical model.

Regardless of whether Aegon and Jon are Arthur and Henry, or whether Aegon or Jon is supposedly TPTWP, or AA, or whatever, the history that I'm pushing here is that there never is a second coming of King Arthur. People prophecy that he's going to come back, they name princes after him, saying that they are Arthur reborn, and it is a major feature of the Wars of the Roses and the victorious Tudor dynasty. But Arthur never comes back, and I don't think AA/TPTWP will either. It doesn't mean that Aegon or Jon or whoever won't come to the throne, but the one that does won't be the returned hero.

So basically ASoIaF is war of the roses + dragons + environmentalists spiced with sex and gore?

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So basically ASoIaF is war of the roses + dragons + environmentalists spiced with sex and gore?

Sort of. Martin draws on a lot of things as he well should, but the Wars of the Roses are the main framework for ASOIAF. He doesn't follow the same order of events or anything, but a lot of what happens in his books are embellished and tweaked versions of history from that time period. I'm sure Apple Martini can back me up on this.

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I agree that the others are more complex than we think right now (or than most people think I should say), but I don't think a resurrected Jon could join them. Others have hinted on this, but I'll put my two cents in. It seems that R'lhor is fire and the Great Other is Ice. They seem to be opposed to one another. So the worshipers of the Great Other (the Others) use ice magic, while the worshipers of R'hlor use fire magic. I don't think there's any way the others would accept someone resurrected in the name of the god who is likely their arch enemy.

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I think the true AA and/or TPTWP may never show up in the story. Rather, becuase of the character's knowledge of these prophecized heros, the characters are molding their decisions (conciously or unconciously) to fit into the propheicies. Many stories that deal with prophecies like the ones in ASOIAF at some point awknowledge that prophecies come true because the actors are making them come true through their choices and actions (Harry Potter being a very good example of this). Just a thought, first time posting and all...

These are extremely good points.

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Also, I for one would be very disappointed if Jon was resurrected by Melisandre. It's been done too much already, I think. Plus we don't have any proof that Melisandre is even capable of doing it. Just because one R'lhor follower can do something, it doesn't necessarily mean any of them could.

I think it's more likely Jon will warg ghost, and then eventually warg a human. He could warg one of the corpses in the ice cell. Then, maybe he'd be able to become a spy for the others. However, it's been done already with the wildlings, so hopefully Martin can come up with something new.

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Sort of. Martin draws on a lot of things as he well should, but the Wars of the Roses are the main framework for ASOIAF. He doesn't follow the same order of events or anything, but a lot of what happens in his books are embellished and tweaked versions of history from that time period. I'm sure Apple Martini can back me up on this.

I think there are both some obvious similarities (York=Stark=white rose; Lancaster=Lannister=red rose) and a significant difference: whereas in the War of the Roses they were fighting to occupy the same throne, the Lannister-Stark war is more separatist: the North figthing to stablish its own kingdom, and the Lannisters and its allies figthing to prevent it.

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I think there are both some obvious similarities (York=Stark=white rose; Lancaster=Lannister=red rose) and a significant difference: whereas in the War of the Roses they were fighting to occupy the same throne, the Lannister-Stark war is more separatist: the North figthing to stablish its own kingdom, and the Lannisters and its allies figthing to prevent it.

Lol, the similarities I'm thinking of are more along the line of actual events, not name similarities, though those are there too ;)

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Somebody on one of the DwD threads posted something that I thought was interesting: the idea of Jon flipping "sides" to the White Walkers. I don't currently see how this could be manageable unless he was turned into a wight somehow, but I like the notion of Jon becoming one of the White Walkers, perhaps even their king. There's no way we could really flesh out that theory in terms of how possible it is until we get more information on what the White Walkers are, how Coldhands happened, and those sorts of things, but definitely something I'll ponder about. I reckon it would make an interesting parallel with the Night King, and if Jon White Walker Snow were to fall in love with Dany, it would be an even more literal depiction of the union between ice and fire. Meh, crackpot theories.

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^ you clearly didnt read my original post.

I dont think Jon will become the leader of the Others but may join them and learn about them. The author implies so far that the others are the bad guys, and I dont see Jon being an antagonist. Although it would be a pretty cool way of showing that they are not EVIL and that there are no true antagonists in this story

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