A Thread for Small Questions XIV

[Fire_Kiss]

Pate's death - when I read AFFC, the prologue, for the first time, I assumed the FM had used some kind of magic to kill him, or stabbed him in the back, something like that. Re-reading it, I began to think it was the coin he bit, that maybe it had that FM poison and that's how he died. Which is correct?

Going off of Martin's style of writing, where we see an example of (let's say, Rhanes' (spic) kitten, and also the description of Arya chasing the tomcat:) something, then see it used later on...

I'd say the coin was poisoned. I think when Arya is telling the Kindly Man how the insurance guy died, "you replaced one of his coins for one of our own" implies they have a stock of poisoned gold coins. It's common practice for lower-birth (or distrusting) folks to bite gold to test its authenticity.

[Lebronn Jaime]

Re-reading it, I began to think it was the coin he bit, that maybe it had that FM poison and that's how he died. Which is correct?

Poisoned coin. It mirrors Arya's kill in ADWD.

[Where The Weirwood Weeps]

This is my first post ^_^

Good question. I'm gonna take a stab at it and say that it was probably a Targaryen practice. The idea being, the Targs wanted to intermarry to retain their Valyrian features. But in Valyria, everyone in the major families would have had these features (I assume?), so there wouldn't be pressure to practice incest to retain them. In Westeros, there would be. I also subscribe to the idea that the "Baratheon" features as we know them are actually the Storm Kings' features, assimilated into the Baratheon line when Aegon's half-brother married the Storm King's daughter. In that case, incest in the Baratheon line to preserve Targ features might have been seen as useless, given that the Targ features would presumably always fall to the darker Storm Kings' features.

Wasn't their "Dragon's Blood" the only true feature that the Targaryens wished to maintain as it was the source of their affinity and contorl of dragons. If they were only concerned with the Valyrian physical features, the Targaryens would have wed people of House Velaryon more often, as they were another Valyrian blooded family with similar hair and eye color. They only did so 2 or 3 times, right?

The Targaryens may have forgotten the true meaning and advantages of "the Blood of the Dragon" after the last dragon died. The ending results being periodic Targaryens like Aerion (in D&E) and arguably Aerys II, who were obsessed with the idea of themselves being dragons. They had no strong reminders of the volatility of dragons and what actually made the Targaryens special/strong enough to take over most of the continent.

Technically speaking, the Berantheons were Valyrion as well, with their Ancestor being Aegons Bastard half-Brother and inner-marrying with the Targs. a time, or two.

But, it doesn't appear that they practiced incest.

So, was incest a Valyrion practice, or just a Targaryen practice?

To the original question: No because fhe Targaryens practiced incest to preverse the bloodline and maintain contorl of the dragons.

[Where The Weirwood Weeps]

This has been bugging me since I read AFFC. Did I miss somthing? :unsure:

House Velaryon is descended from Valyria, but in what way? Did a Velaryon ancestor follow Aegon I and his sister/wives from Valyria or does the House descend from Targaryens in a similar fashion to how House Baratheon partially does?

[Lady Octarina]

This has been bugging me since I read AFFC. Did I miss somthing? :unsure:

House Velaryon is descended from Valyria, but in what way? Did a Velaryon ancestor follow Aegon I and his sister/wives from Valyria or does the House descend from Targaryens in a similar fashion to how House Baratheon partially does?

I don't think it's ever stated, but it's not completely impossible that other families from Valyria migrated to Westeros before the doom; people with those features don't have to be necessarily descendants from the Targs.

[Where The Weirwood Weeps]

I don't think it's ever stated, but it's not completely impossible that other families from Valyria migrated to Westeros before the doom; people with those features don't have to be necessarily descendants from the Targs.

Thank you for replying so fast.

Why before the doom? Aegon I's half brother Orys(?) Baratheon arrived from Valyria with Aegon and his sisters after the doom. The dragons never let any one but their particular human ever ride them, so no one extra could have jumped on. For Baratheon to come to Westeros, he must have come by boat. Maybe there were a few other surviors on board too, such as a Velaryon ancestor.

In the end we won't know unless GRRM ever decideds to clear that up, but he has bigger priorities.

[Fire_Kiss]

Thank you for replying so fast.

Why before the doom? Aegon I's half brother Orys(?) Baratheon arrived from Valyria with Aegon and his sisters after the doom. The dragons never let any one but their particular human ever ride them, so no one extra could have jumped on. For Baratheon to come to Westeros, he must have come by boat. Maybe there were a few other surviors on board too, such as a Velaryon ancestor.

In the end we won't know unless GRRM ever decideds to clear that up, but he has bigger priorities.

I believe dragons are capable of carrying more than one rider, but no dragon rider ever rode more than one dragon.

[witless chum]

Thank you for replying so fast.

Why before the doom? Aegon I's half brother Orys(?) Baratheon arrived from Valyria with Aegon and his sisters after the doom. The dragons never let any one but their particular human ever ride them, so no one extra could have jumped on. For Baratheon to come to Westeros, he must have come by boat. Maybe there were a few other surviors on board too, such as a Velaryon ancestor.

In the end we won't know unless GRRM ever decideds to clear that up, but he has bigger priorities.

Probably a few old Valyrians came to Dragonstone with the Targs and then followed them to invade Westeros. Not many, but a few seems likely.

[Lady Octarina]

Thank you for replying so fast.

Why before the doom? Aegon I's half brother Orys(?) Baratheon arrived from Valyria with Aegon and his sisters after the doom. The dragons never let any one but their particular human ever ride them, so no one extra could have jumped on. For Baratheon to come to Westeros, he must have come by boat. Maybe there were a few other surviors on board too, such as a Velaryon ancestor.

In the end we won't know unless GRRM ever decideds to clear that up, but he has bigger priorities.

I just assume that migrations between the continent weren't that uncommon, since they are not so distant from one another. I know in our medieval era people didn't move far from home that much, but there were always exceptions, and it's possible that some merchant families moved from Essos to Westeros a few hundred years before the story, for example. I just don't see why all Valyrian migration to Westeros would have to happen after the doom.

[Where The Weirwood Weeps]

I believe dragons are capable of carrying more than one rider, but no dragon rider ever rode more than one dragon.

:unsure: eep... Did I completely switch around the dragon riding legeacy...? I can't remember...

Probably a few old Valyrians came to Dragonstone with the Targs and then followed them to invade Westeros. Not many, but a few seems likely.

I just assume that migrations between the continent weren't that uncommon, since they are not so distant from one another. I know in our medieval era people didn't move far from home that much, but there were always exceptions, and it's possible that some merchant families moved from Essos to Westeros a few hundred years before the story, for example. I just don't see why all Valyrian migration to Westeros would have to happen after the doom.

Everyone, thank you helping me with my question. Clearly I need to continue re-reading the books. I've only read them all once. :read:

[Alia of the knife]

This is my first post ^_^

Wasn't their "Dragon's Blood" the only true feature that the Targaryens wished to maintain as it was the source of their affinity and contorl of dragons. If they were only concerned with the Valyrian physical features, the Targaryens would have wed people of House Velaryon more often, as they were another Valyrian blooded family with similar hair and eye color. They only did so 2 or 3 times, right?

The Targaryens may have forgotten the true meaning and advantages of "the Blood of the Dragon" after the last dragon died. The ending results being periodic Targaryens like Aerion (in D&E) and arguably Aerys II, who were obsessed with the idea of themselves being dragons. They had no strong reminders of the volatility of dragons and what actually made the Targaryens special/strong enough to take over most of the continent.

To the original question: No because fhe Targaryens practiced incest to preverse the bloodline and maintain contorl of the dragons.

Thanks for answering as well. :)

[Dragonfish]

Thank you for replying so fast.

Why before the doom? Aegon I's half brother Orys(?) Baratheon arrived from Valyria with Aegon and his sisters after the doom.

The Targaryens had already been in Westeros for about a hundred years when the Doom occurred, so Aegon was most likely born in Westeros. I don't think we're told when House Velaryon came to Westeros, but for some reason I also assumed it was before the Doom.

[Symon Silvertongue]

In GoT Varys has a conversation with Eddard where he says that LF is the second most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms. Who's nr. 1? My impression is that it's not him. Illyrio is the one doing all the planning.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In GoT Varys has a conversation with Eddard where he says that LF is the second most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms. Who's nr. 1? My impression is that it's not him. Illyrio is the one doing all the planning.

I'd assume that Varys himself is No. 1. I think you're giving Illyrio too much credit in the planning department.

[realitytrip]

Ok, first post. I just finished reading all of the books for the first time. Very helpful, this place. My small question: Was there any hint that I missed about Ser Mandon Moore and who might have told him to slice up Tyrion? I was really hoping one of the Cersei chapters would have a thought about this, but there was nothing that I remember seeing......

[Symon Silvertongue]

Regarding Yoren's pick of the dungeons. What was he thinking when he took this lot? I doubt that he didn't check out what they were charged for. Specifically Rorge, an uncontrollable psychopath and Biter, a cannibal. A lost cause. And then there's Jaqen..

[Lebronn Jaime]

Regarding Yoren's pick of the dungeons. What was he thinking when he took this lot? I doubt that he didn't check out what they were charged for. Specifically Rorge, an uncontrollable psychopath and Biter, a cannibal. A lost cause. And then there's Jaqen..

...And that should give you a very good picture of the amount of prestige the Watch has at the time of the books. Save a few old lords and second/third sons, only the dregs of Westerosi society "join".

[The Shadowbinder]

Regarding Yoren's pick of the dungeons. What was he thinking when he took this lot? I doubt that he didn't check out what they were charged for. Specifically Rorge, an uncontrollable psychopath and Biter, a cannibal. A lost cause. And then there's Jaqen..

I agree, this has always irked me... they certainly don't seem reformable. I know how desperate the Watch is for men but I still think psychopaths and cannibals would be more of a liability than an asset, especially in a perilous military situation.

[Ghost714]

I agree, this has always irked me... they certainly don't seem reformable. I know how desperate the Watch is for men but I still think psychopaths and cannibals would be more of a liability than an asset, especially in a perilous military situation.

Where do you draw the line? It might be that in the past the Watch only took criminals convicted of lesser crimes, but as time went on they might have needed to continue lowering the "bar", so to speak. Till eventually they just said, "screw it, we need every man we can get, all crimes are pardoned".... I really don't know. I do think that the Watch has a wide variety of messed up men at the Wall, and if you break your vows your killed. So I don't think it's to much liability taking men like Rorge or Bitter, as long as there is enough good men to keep the rouges in line. Yet we see that, even with out the likes of R&B, the NW still gets over run with the rouges, so I don't think R&B would have made much of a difference.

[Symon Silvertongue]

When Arya makes her water in the woods and sees the eyes of a wolfpack they retreat. Did they really 'recognize' her?