Who do you think was the Little Crannogman?

[Shaggy Rickon]

I just re read that chapter. And meera keeps asking bran if Ned ever told this story. Also meera says that the night before the tourney the crannogman bunks with the quiet wolf who we understand to be Ned. We know howland reed rode with Ned to war. I mean I like the idea of the knight being lyanna but in my opinion the signs point to Ned.

[Rockroi]

The Crannogman is almost certainly Howland Reed.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree (KotLT for short) is almost certainly Lyanna Stark.

The evidence for Lyanna is compelling; of the little evidence we have none of it points away from Lyanna; of all the evidence we have, it all points towards Lyanna; of all the evidencne we have most other candidates have severe doubt cast onto them.

Here is my “fast and dirty” evidence as to why the KotLT is Lyanna Stark:

1) It had to be SOMEBODY! What I mean by this is that the KotLT did not just appear- it had to be one of the people who Howland interacted with that day- so, the list of suspects is decidedly small: Lyanna, Ned, Benjen, Brandon, Robert, Rhaegar, one of the KG, and possibly a few others like Ashara Dayne.

(interestingly, although some people claim a young- and we mean YOUNG –Sandor Clegane could have been the KotLT, there is not one scintilla of evidence that suggests Sandor was even AT Harrenhal that day).

2) Why the helmet? There had to be a reason that EVEN AFTER the KotlT’s victory s/he did not show his/her face. I have often said that this fact alone eliminates almost every male suspect.

3) Why is this even important? Or rather why does Martin keep coming back to it?

4) The Reed children seem perplexed that Bran does not know the story of the KotLT;

5) Lyanna was willful, prideful, honorable, tough, and decent (at least from what we know from tangential characters, including Ned and Arya). She was also a risk taker (Ned) who seems the type who would do an act such as the KotLT;

6) Lyanna had no formal training on how to fight and that Rickard refused to let her train. I want to say that in order for Rickard to “refuse” to let her fight, that would mean at some point, Lyanna ASKED for the training- and we know she is willful enough to ignore her father’s orders. Anyway, in Meera’ story to Bran it specifically states that when Howland was being attacked by the squires Lyanna “laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all” One girl against multiple enemies- probably some shock value in her attacks, but she did scatter them all. So, she can fight and WITH a sword; and has some basic knowledge.

We also now know from a Bran chapter in ADwD that Bran sees a young girl- almost assuredly Lyanna -fighting at sticks with another boy almost assuredly Benjen (could have been Eddard). This shows again that Lyanna would like to fight a little

7) The rider in the passage is described as slight, in ill-fitting armor. Smaller people make smaller targets in a joust. Finally, the rider does not take off his/her helm indicating he/she did not want to be identified. The slight part leaves, really, only Ashara Dayne, Lyanna, and Howland Reed. Ned and Brandon were not slight and would have NO reason to hide their identity.

(Some people claim that Benjen Stark could be the KotLT, but there is a subtle hint that it was NOT Benjen. In the story, Reed and Lyanna muse about Howland entering the lists. In SoS, “the pup” says to Howland that if Howland wanted to enter the list, he had some armor he could let him use that might fit him. Howland only thanks him. Well… if Benjen Stark had armor he could fit in that “might” fit Howland, why the Hell is the KotLT out there in “ill-fitting” armor? Unless, of course, it wasn’t Benjen but somebody who “might” fit into his armor… like Lyanna).

8) This is an “if-after-this-than-therefore-because-of-it” argument BUT (big, big BUT), if Rhaegar has to fall in love with Lyanna (big, big IF), then he needs an opportunity to actually meet her. The Starks do not go to Court; Rheagar did not go to the North; the Starks do not attend tournies (often). The tourney at Harrenhal seems to be the perfect opportunity. Well, how did they meet? Very little evidence suggests that they ever had an overt opportunity to do so. However, RHEAGAR is sent by Aerys to find the KotLT who "is no friend of mine." Rheagar is dispatched; he returns CLAIMING he never found the KotLT. Well, what my theory "presupposes is, maybe he didn’t" (Thank you Owen Wilson and the Royal Tenenbaums) Maybe Rheagar found who he was looking for. I think this is PLAUSIBLE (read: does not mean it happened).

9) If you support R+L=J and that R did not RAPE L then it seems HIGHLY PROBABLE that this is the time R+L first fell for one another. They seem to need an opportunity. As I said before, if only there was some way that Lyanna could have disguised herself … hmmm...

10) On combat. Tournaments are OVERWHELMING described as unsure, tricky and almost random events. This is NOT to say that skill is not involved; merely to identify that strange things happen (like Selmy being NINE at his first tourney). Selmy, Jaime, the Hound, Ned, Mormont (both of them), and others have opined that tourney fighting is NOTHING like war. To have a woman unhorse three lords seems plausible (but not Probable, I grant you). Again- seems like something that would take a lot of guts.

11) Jaime, Ned, Robert, etc all describe jousts as being more about hoursemanship than about the ability with a lance. Its been suggested in much of the books that Lyanna was an incredible horse-rider (Ned says as much and so does the Northernman Arya runs into who servees Dondarion). Lyanna's skill as a rider would be a huge bonus to her in the lists.

This is explained again in ADwD when LAdy Dustin- whose husband was slain while fighting the last three KG'ers at the ToJ- says that Lyanna was "half a centaur"; and IIRC Lyanna's riding ability is commented on again in another chapter

Breakdown of candidates:

In order to be the KotLT the character would need to be:

-present at Harrenhal (eliminates 99.99999% of the population of Westeroes)

-Old enough to sit a horse and ride with a lance (really hard to think it could still be Howland Reed here- the story specifically says that the little Crannogman was terrible at riding a horse; Benjen may have been too young);

-Be small of build enough that their small stature is noticeable (eliminates Ned and Brandon);

-Someone who would have some reason to hide their identity (re-eliminates the Stark boys, Rahegar, and several others);

-Someone who interacted with Howland Reed (eliminates Ashara Dayne, Robert Baratheon, etc etc etc);

At the END of all this we come BACK to the beginning. There is something STRANGE going on when the Reeds tell Bran the story; Reed children cannot FATHOM why Bran does not KNOW the story already (they ask him twice if he is SURE he does not know the story). If the Reed children are telling Bran a story about Lyanna, this makes sense; it seems out of place that they would expect Bran to know a story about Ashara Dayne a woman he has no connection to at all. One could argue that the character is Howland Reed. This is plausible, but it does not explain why the Reed kids find it odd that Bran has not heard the story; Reed has never even met Bran so why would it be EXPECTED that he would know a story about him? And its kind of presumptuous of them to think that Ned would not tell them a story about the KotLT if he were Howland, their own father. The Reed kids do not strike me as presumptuous.

All signs (scant as they may be) point away from all other characters and keep coming back to Lyanna Stark.

[TyrionFan82]

I think Howland Reed too. We know he rode to war w/Ned and they were close so it makes sense since Meera asks if Ned had told him. I like the Lyanna theory as well, but think it all points to Howland.

[KOM]

The Knight of the Laughing Tree (KotLT for short) is almost certainly Lyanna Stark.

gj

[T0mBombadil]

I think Howland Reed too. We know he rode to war w/Ned and they were close so it makes sense since Meera asks if Ned had told him. I like the Lyanna theory as well, but think it all points to Howland.

Rockroi just clearly explained in significant detail that it all points to Lyanna lol. IMO there is no evidence that it was Howland, and the fact that Martin put this background story in here and had it told to bran thru the reeds confirms that it was indeed the "lil pup." But then again I could be wrong i dont know everything Martin does or what he plans to do with the Harrenhal story later on because it is clearly a very important story if I is told through many POV's.

[The King Breaker]

I noticed something not that relevent to this topic. at one point it says that the quite wolf (ned) dances with a maid with silvery hair. could this be the dayne girl who some think to be Jon snows mother? it makes sense that she would be there because her brother was and if this is true and she really is jon snows mother wont that be an anti climax.

[Luthien Targaryen]

I think the Knight was Howland Reed. Meera starts the story explaining that the Crannogman has a lot of skills, some of which are magical. He comes across as an older, and slightly tougher version of Meera herself. We know he can handle a small boat (something like a coracle i feel), has quick reflexes (he hunts frogs and fish with his spear, presumably) and is probably quite strong. A couple of years later he's one of only two survivors of the fight between Eddard Stark's party and some of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, and apparently he saved Ned's life. So i reckon he's quite handy in a fight. And who knows what he learnt on the Isle of Faces?

My theory is that Ned overheard Howland praying to the Old Gods and offered to help, giving him a crash course on Tourney-craft, which Howland may have discovered he had a talent for or found his marsh-skills were transferable to the lists. (I've never tried fishing using a spear from a coracle, and my horseriding experience is fairly limited, but i'd imagine that it's easier to learn to joust if you're used to moving targets and unsteady footings, especially if you have good hand to eye coordination).

I can see why people think that Lyanna might have been the knight, but i think that she'd have even less experience of jousting than Howland Reed. Maybe she is handy with a sword (i'm sure i remember Bran witnessing Lyanna and one of her brothers, Benjen i guess, playfighting in the weirwood when he's "possessing" the heart tree.), and she can ride well (as Harwin tells Arya) but using a lance or a spear is speculation. I think she would have been missed from the crowd as well, chances are that Robert Baratheon and Prince Rhaegar would have been watching out for her throughout the tournament, possible many more young men too, even if her brothers were complicit in her plot.

Of course it could be a Green Man, or something else sent across from the Isle of Faces.

And yeah, i think that the silver haired maid was Ashara Dayne, but i don't think she's Jon's mother.

But who won the 7 sided Melee?

[JLE]

I don't think the Knight of the Laughing Tree could have been Lyanna, because "he spoke with a booming voice"... unquestionably a man's voice. I know there are voices where a woman's and man's can be mistaken, but not a "booming" male voice - a loud, low-pitched woman's voice would still sound at best like a medium-to-high-pitched man, it wouldn't "boom" in a way that could possibly be qualified by the pronoun "he" in the same sentence. Lyanna might be able to ride, she might be able to fight with swords, she might even be able to joust after a fashion, but what she could never do is actually sound like a man when talking.

On the other hand, I would definitely not put it past Ned to ride incognito as champion to his own subject. It's the kind of thing he just might do.

If Ned rode under his own name and arms, everything would be his to lose - as a nobleman of a great house, he would be *expected* to win, so it would be no shame to the bullying knights and their squires if he did beat them, and a lot of embarassment to him if he lost.

Whereas riding as incognito, as champion to his own comparatively unknown bannerman, he has nothing to lose if he loses - no name or fame to lose, not even his best horse and armour (since he would wear gear that was fit for the station he purported to be, rather than the station he really occupied) and everything to embarass *them* if he wins, three knights being beaten by a complete unknown would be far more humiliating than being beaten by the Lord of Winterfell.

[ImTHATGuy]

I never thought it was Lyanna. I thought it was either Ned or Reed.

[The guy from the Vale]

I don't think the Knight of the Laughing Tree could have been Lyanna, because "he spoke with a booming voice"... unquestionably a man's voice. I know there are voices where a woman's and man's can be mistaken, but not a "booming" male voice - a loud, low-pitched woman's voice would still sound at best like a medium-to-high-pitched man, it wouldn't "boom" in a way that could possibly be qualified by the pronoun "he" in the same sentence. Lyanna might be able to ride, she might be able to fight with swords, she might even be able to joust after a fashion, but what she could never do is actually sound like a man when talking.

On the other hand, I would definitely not put it past Ned to ride incognito as champion to his own subject. It's the kind of thing he just might do.

If Ned rode under his own name and arms, everything would be his to lose - as a nobleman of a great house, he would be *expected* to win, so it would be no shame to the bullying knights and their squires if he did beat them, and a lot of embarassment to him if he lost.

Whereas riding as incognito, as champion to his own comparatively unknown bannerman, he has nothing to lose if he loses - no name or fame to lose, not even his best horse and armour (since he would wear gear that was fit for the station he purported to be, rather than the station he really occupied) and everything to embarass *them* if he wins, three knights being beaten by a complete unknown would be far more humiliating than being beaten by the Lord of Winterfell.

I suggest you reread the chapter in ACoK where Renly holds the tourney at Bitterbridge. Brienne's voice from inside the helmet is described as... "booming". So booming voices are not proof against the speaker being female.

[PrinceRobotIV]

woah.

The Crannogman is almost certainly Howland Reed.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree (KotLT for short) is almost certainly Lyanna Stark.

The evidence for Lyanna is compelling; of the little evidence we have none of it points away from Lyanna; of all the evidence we have, it all points towards Lyanna; of all the evidencne we have most other candidates have severe doubt cast onto them.

Here is my “fast and dirty” evidence as to why the KotLT is Lyanna Stark:

1) It had to be SOMEBODY! What I mean by this is that the KotLT did not just appear- it had to be one of the people who Howland interacted with that day- so, the list of suspects is decidedly small: Lyanna, Ned, Benjen, Brandon, Robert, Rhaegar, one of the KG, and possibly a few others like Ashara Dayne.

(interestingly, although some people claim a young- and we mean YOUNG –Sandor Clegane could have been the KotLT, there is not one scintilla of evidence that suggests Sandor was even AT Harrenhal that day).

2) Why the helmet? There had to be a reason that EVEN AFTER the KotlT’s victory s/he did not show his/her face. I have often said that this fact alone eliminates almost every male suspect.

3) Why is this even important? Or rather why does Martin keep coming back to it?

4) The Reed children seem perplexed that Bran does not know the story of the KotLT;

5) Lyanna was willful, prideful, honorable, tough, and decent (at least from what we know from tangential characters, including Ned and Arya). She was also a risk taker (Ned) who seems the type who would do an act such as the KotLT;

6) Lyanna had no formal training on how to fight and that Rickard refused to let her train. I want to say that in order for Rickard to “refuse” to let her fight, that would mean at some point, Lyanna ASKED for the training- and we know she is willful enough to ignore her father’s orders. Anyway, in Meera’ story to Bran it specifically states that when Howland was being attacked by the squires Lyanna “laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all” One girl against multiple enemies- probably some shock value in her attacks, but she did scatter them all. So, she can fight and WITH a sword; and has some basic knowledge.

We also now know from a Bran chapter in ADwD that Bran sees a young girl- almost assuredly Lyanna -fighting at sticks with another boy almost assuredly Benjen (could have been Eddard). This shows again that Lyanna would like to fight a little

7) The rider in the passage is described as slight, in ill-fitting armor. Smaller people make smaller targets in a joust. Finally, the rider does not take off his/her helm indicating he/she did not want to be identified. The slight part leaves, really, only Ashara Dayne, Lyanna, and Howland Reed. Ned and Brandon were not slight and would have NO reason to hide their identity.

(Some people claim that Benjen Stark could be the KotLT, but there is a subtle hint that it was NOT Benjen. In the story, Reed and Lyanna muse about Howland entering the lists. In SoS, “the pup” says to Howland that if Howland wanted to enter the list, he had some armor he could let him use that might fit him. Howland only thanks him. Well… if Benjen Stark had armor he could fit in that “might” fit Howland, why the Hell is the KotLT out there in “ill-fitting” armor? Unless, of course, it wasn’t Benjen but somebody who “might” fit into his armor… like Lyanna).

8) This is an “if-after-this-than-therefore-because-of-it” argument BUT (big, big BUT), if Rhaegar has to fall in love with Lyanna (big, big IF), then he needs an opportunity to actually meet her. The Starks do not go to Court; Rheagar did not go to the North; the Starks do not attend tournies (often). The tourney at Harrenhal seems to be the perfect opportunity. Well, how did they meet? Very little evidence suggests that they ever had an overt opportunity to do so. However, RHEAGAR is sent by Aerys to find the KotLT who "is no friend of mine." Rheagar is dispatched; he returns CLAIMING he never found the KotLT. Well, what my theory "presupposes is, maybe he didn’t" (Thank you Owen Wilson and the Royal Tenenbaums) Maybe Rheagar found who he was looking for. I think this is PLAUSIBLE (read: does not mean it happened).

9) If you support R+L=J and that R did not RAPE L then it seems HIGHLY PROBABLE that this is the time R+L first fell for one another. They seem to need an opportunity. As I said before, if only there was some way that Lyanna could have disguised herself … hmmm...

10) On combat. Tournaments are OVERWHELMING described as unsure, tricky and almost random events. This is NOT to say that skill is not involved; merely to identify that strange things happen (like Selmy being NINE at his first tourney). Selmy, Jaime, the Hound, Ned, Mormont (both of them), and others have opined that tourney fighting is NOTHING like war. To have a woman unhorse three lords seems plausible (but not Probable, I grant you). Again- seems like something that would take a lot of guts.

11) Jaime, Ned, Robert, etc all describe jousts as being more about hoursemanship than about the ability with a lance. Its been suggested in much of the books that Lyanna was an incredible horse-rider (Ned says as much and so does the Northernman Arya runs into who servees Dondarion). Lyanna's skill as a rider would be a huge bonus to her in the lists.

This is explained again in ADwD when LAdy Dustin- whose husband was slain while fighting the last three KG'ers at the ToJ- says that Lyanna was "half a centaur"; and IIRC Lyanna's riding ability is commented on again in another chapter

Breakdown of candidates:

In order to be the KotLT the character would need to be:

-present at Harrenhal (eliminates 99.99999% of the population of Westeroes)

-Old enough to sit a horse and ride with a lance (really hard to think it could still be Howland Reed here- the story specifically says that the little Crannogman was terrible at riding a horse; Benjen may have been too young);

-Be small of build enough that their small stature is noticeable (eliminates Ned and Brandon);

-Someone who would have some reason to hide their identity (re-eliminates the Stark boys, Rahegar, and several others);

-Someone who interacted with Howland Reed (eliminates Ashara Dayne, Robert Baratheon, etc etc etc);

At the END of all this we come BACK to the beginning. There is something STRANGE going on when the Reeds tell Bran the story; Reed children cannot FATHOM why Bran does not KNOW the story already (they ask him twice if he is SURE he does not know the story). If the Reed children are telling Bran a story about Lyanna, this makes sense; it seems out of place that they would expect Bran to know a story about Ashara Dayne a woman he has no connection to at all. One could argue that the character is Howland Reed. This is plausible, but it does not explain why the Reed kids find it odd that Bran has not heard the story; Reed has never even met Bran so why would it be EXPECTED that he would know a story about him? And its kind of presumptuous of them to think that Ned would not tell them a story about the KotLT if he were Howland, their own father. The Reed kids do not strike me as presumptuous.

All signs (scant as they may be) point away from all other characters and keep coming back to Lyanna Stark.

WOAH. thank you. I was wondering who it was and it occurred to me that it could have been Lyanna, but I decided to see what the forums had to say. I am convinced that it was Lyanna.

[First of My Name]

Howland. He is after all the Most Interesting Man in Westeros.

[lightbringer vs ice]

I like the Benjen theory. Can anyone recall at which time Benjen is recruited for the nights watch? Meera states that a black brother is present at the feast looking for knights to take the black. He is also referred to as the pup, maybe still a youngster which would possibly explain the shortness of the KotLt and the badly fitting armour.

[Winterz]

I don't think it was Lyanna at all. She could've mounted well but she was no badass rider.

As for being Howland sounds a bit bad considering how he got beat up and it was reconned that he was no knight. My domestic theory is that it was a Stark or maybe an improved Howland with COTF magic.