‘I’m not African-American,’ some blacks insist

[Sci-2]

In my mind, "political correctness" is overrated. Your skin color doesn't really matter, so why dance around the issue? You're black, you're black. You're white, you're white. Who the fuck cares?

It's the same as I feel about gays. It's just a descriptive, other than that it shouldn't mean anything.

As TP says, you're reducing prejudice to something overt, rather than the institutional forces that are in place. It is the latter that is the greater issue.

ETA: To say you are gay takes a lot of courage in many, many circles. In many places, just for safety's sake, or least peace of mind, it requires you to keep mum even while others can feel free to go on about their sexual exploits, dating lives, marriages, etc.

[The Anti-Targ]

Well I'm classed, for census purposes, as European. But I was born and raised in the Pacific and I don't identify at all with Europe.

If someone asks my ethnicity I don't express it in terms of colour. I express it in terms of a small flightless bird with a long skinny beak: Kiwi. Though if someone wanted to look for ancestral origins it would be Kiwi of English, Scottish, Welsh & Maori descent. I'd never say I was white.

The only time anyone really needs to mention skin colour is when the person is a wanted criminal / suspect and there's a public notice issued for the pueposes of telling the public what a potentially dangerous person looks like. In that context it's useful to know what sort of skin tone the person has, so you can automatically eliminate anyone who isn't of that skin tone who also happens to be acting suspiciously, or otherwise looks a bit dodgy.

I know a few Solomon Islanders who are way blacker than most / all people of African origin. I'm sure they'd prefer "black" over African American. Though I imagine they'd actually prefer Melanesian, or Solomon Islander.

[Ormond]

Is this necessarily a good thing, though? Couldn't that easily lead to a preference for dealing with members of your own "subgroup" over others? For example, if you're Irish-American, and like thinking of yourself as "different" from other Americans because of that, wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable to prefer other "Irish-Americans" for jobs, opportunities, etc.? And that would necessarily mean prefering them over blacks, asians, hispanics, etc.

No, it's not a bad thing.

I teach cross-cultural psychology, and the research on this among immigrants is that people who have a dual identity, who are proud both of being American (or Canadian or wherever else they have immigrated to) AND proud and still identifying with their original culture are the ones who do the best and are the most mentally healthy.

Both people who try to assimilate completely and forget about their original culture, and people who keep to themselves in enclaves and don't learn how to deal with the culture of the new country, do less well. And I don't know of any evidence that those who do maintain the "dual" identity are likely to discriminate over others in terms of jobs or other irrelevant issues.

[Sivin]

Re: Sivin

Since you're not great friends with them, did you have a chance to ask them how they feel about the subject? Or does their self-determination matter nothing to you and you feel that your prescription to what they should be called trumps their own decision?

You're implying that very few people care about people's skin colors. The reality of the pervasiveness of racism in the U.S. says otherwise.

I apologize, I should have been more clear with my statement. The people I was referring to actually didn't like the term either.

Example: I went to school with a guy named Samuel, he was born in America, and disliked being called anything other than an 'American'. Samuel is one of the most intelligent people I've ever met, (I'm not sure, but he might actually have a higher IQ than me) and he was open to conversations on race. He really thought it was disrespectful to imply that he wasn't just another American. And he felt that saying he was black was just like saying that I (for example) have brown hair. Everyone can see it, but it doesn't matter.

I was going to go on about a co-worker and a few other people I know (I don't like throwing the 'friend' word around), but I'll leave off at Samuel. I just wanted to explain that my position is something that a few black people I know support.

As for the second statement. That's pretty much just my opinion.

[fitheach]

As a Canadian i can tell you only the people trying to separate all the time from Canada call themselves French Canadians, the rest are quite happy being called Canadian.

My husband calls himself French Canadian (because he is Francophone), and isn't at all interested in separation.. Same with his family, they call themselves French Canadian and couldn't give two shits about separation. Soooo Ice Crow, maybe you need to update your thinking.

As to African American vs. Black American (or pretty much anyone here), it's complicated. AA/Black Americans are usually more than African heritage, many are also Native American and European decent.. So African American doesn't cover it.. But I understand why African American was the choice for the past 30 years, since black doesn't really say much either. I grew up in the south where people still said colored or high yellow into the late 80's, and can tell you African American had a better, positive, feel. My two closest friends are black American, and prefer being called black American.

I personally have issues with people who call themselves "pure" Irish or German (or whatever) American- who's family immigrated to North America 100 years ago and never even visited the country of their great grandparents.. It's silly, your North American!

Now I have a

in my head..

[Sixshells]

I suppose the reason you "don't see the point" is because you yourself have completely assimilated into what might be called "general American culture." There are lots of people who still identify with their ethnic subcultures even after a couple of generations and who don't want to minimize how they and their relatives continue to be different from

"general Americans."

And the descendants of pre-Civil War slaves certainly do have a culture which is different from that of the "majority Whites" whose preferences determine "general American culture."

I certainly think I am assimilated in my country's general culture, although that doesn't prevent me from still being aware of my ancestry and what cultural heritage has come to me from it. However I would find it ridiculous, or even offensive, to be described as Filippino-French just because my grand-father came from the Philippines.

I don't think it right when people having centuries of ancestry and history in a country still are not sharing, or perceived as sharing, in that country's "general culture", although I can see how such perception of separation and difference may have historically come to be in the case of African-Americans, between slavery and segregation that lasted until well into the XXth century.

[voodooqueen126]

You considering that slavery has been illegal since the Civil War, and the British Navy tried to prevent the International slave trade by capturing slave ships.

Most "African" Americans have actually been in America since long before the Civil War.

Which is longer than most white Americans (unless your family came out on the Mayflower).

[voodooqueen126]

oops

[Nukelavee]

Ok, is it just me, or does TP sound a bit odd in his arguements?

I'm troubled.

My dad's Black Irish, but he's pretty white, really.

I'll be totally honest, generally, I just say whatever comes to mind. So far, it's never been racist, or caused me a problem.

[Zoë Sumra]

In a perfect world I could just say I'm American. But inevitably the "So...what are nationality are you?" question comes up. I could answer "AMERICAN" since I was born here. But then it leads to, "Oh, haha, um, I meant which ethnicity are you?" Latino or Hispanic isn't even good enough. "Well, which kind?" It just saves a lot of time and irritation to just say Mexican-American.

Thereby proving that people are rather rude at times.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And I don't know of any evidence that those who do maintain the "dual" identity are likely to discriminate over others in terms of jobs or other irrelevant issues.

I see that all the time. There are blacks who overtly state a preference to do business with other blacks, the same with some Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, etc. I actually have a case right now representing three black guys who (essentially) were terminated by an Italian-American moving company that only wanted to hire other Italians. They were used only for one job that involved moving someone in a housing project. I've got another case against a black city official who is on record as telling his subordinate managers to hire more black employees because they need to look out for each other.

Shit, that's the basis of most forms of discrimination -- I'm going to stick with "my kind".

[TerraPrime]

Example: I went to school with a guy named Samuel, he was born in America, and disliked being called anything other than an 'American'. Samuel is one of the most intelligent people I've ever met, (I'm not sure, but he might actually have a higher IQ than me) and he was open to conversations on race. He really thought it was disrespectful to imply that he wasn't just another American. And he felt that saying he was black was just like saying that I (for example) have brown hair. Everyone can see it, but it doesn't matter.

If Samuel prefers a different term, then that's his prerogative.

However, I question the validity of assuming that attaching an ethnic origin as a descriptor to "American" is a form of diminishing the "American" part. I know that some people feel this way, but I don't see why it must be so. If we look at other linguistic examples, like American car or Japanese car, the terms have pejorative meaning only in specific contexts, e.g. "I don't buy Japanese cars because I support U.S. industries" or "American cars are pretty shitty so I stick with buying foreign cars." In the same way, African-American, or Chinese-American, or Latino-American, will only diminish the meaning of "American" if we ascribe a pejorative connotation to the ethnic descriptor.

I was going to go on about a co-worker and a few other people I know (I don't like throwing the 'friend' word around), but I'll leave off at Samuel. I just wanted to explain that my position is something that a few black people I know support.

I am not arguing that there aren't people who think like that. The survey result linked clearly showed that there are.

As for the second statement. That's pretty much just my opinion.

You're welcome to your opinion, of course. I am suggesting, strongly, that the opinion is not based entirely on facts, or reality. "Nobody cares" about people's skin color? Really? That's not a valid opinion at all, far as I can tell.

[Nukelavee]

I find myself agreeing with Terra right now.

The issue isn't the term, it's the reason behind using the term. If I use the term black, it's likely a physical description, or possibly a "cultural" one.

Plus, I've found refering to some men as "dusky" results in free drinks I really didn't want.

And, yes, skin colour matters to people, some more than others, just like religion or language. I'm fairly certain it doesn't matter much to me, but, y'know, I could be wrong.

[Young Wolf]

I love when a race argument comes up, every white person has that "my black friend" story to back up their argument.

[Ormond]

I certainly think I am assimilated in my country's general culture, although that doesn't prevent me from still being aware of my ancestry and what cultural heritage has come to me from it. However I would find it ridiculous, or even offensive, to be described as Filippino-French just because my grand-father came from the Philippines.

I don't think it right when people having centuries of ancestry and history in a country still are not sharing, or perceived as sharing, in that country's "general culture", although I can see how such perception of separation and difference may have historically come to be in the case of African-Americans, between slavery and segregation that lasted until well into the XXth century.

I don't think you understood my point. It is not that they "don't share" the general culture, it's that they are ALSO part of an ethnic subculture.

Calling oneself "African-American" does not imply that you don't also think of yourself as "American".

[Ormond]

I see that all the time. There are blacks who overtly state a preference to do business with other blacks, the same with some Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, etc. I actually have a case right now representing three black guys who (essentially) were terminated by an Italian-American moving company that only wanted to hire other Italians. They were used only for one job that involved moving someone in a housing project. I've got another case against a black city official who is on record as telling his subordinate managers to hire more black employees because they need to look out for each other.

That's the basis of most forms of discrimination -- I'm going to stick with "my kind".

My point is that there is no evidence that people who like to be called "Italian-American" would be MORE likely to want to "stick with their kind" than people who prefer to say they are "just American" will. Note that the way you have phrased it yourself is that the moving company only wants to hire "Italians." That doesn't imply to me that the term "Italian-American" is contributing to their prejudice. I probably think these people are NOT the sort who really have a "dual identity" in the way I am describing it, but are closer to having a non-assimilating Italian identity.

Personally I think having more than one culture to identify with should make most people less likely to discriminate against others. If you appreciate cultural differences within your own self, I would think that would correlate with appreciating them in others.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

My point is that there is no evidence that people who like to be called "Italian-American" would be MORE likely to want to "stick with their kind" than people who prefer to say they are "just American" will. Note that the way you have phrased it yourself is that the moving company only wants to hire "Italians." That doesn't imply to me that the term "Italian-American" is contributing to their prejudice. I probably think these people are NOT the sort who really have a "dual identity" in the way I am describing it, but are closer to having a non-assimilating Italian identity.

Here is the comment you made that I questioned regarding whether or not it was a "good thing":

There are lots of people who still identify with their ethnic subcultures even after a couple of generations and who don't want to minimize how they and their relatives continue to be different from "general Americans."

What you described there is more than just the grammatical/semantic use of a hyphenated descriptor, which I just used as a shorthand to describe your concept. It is a mindset of wanting to emphasize youre differences from "general Americans". And I think that tips very close to a preference for members of your own "ethnic subculture", which in practice amounts to discrimination in favor of your subculture, and against those not in your subculture.

Now, I'd agree that it is possible to have that kind of ethnic pride without it spilling over into preferences for members of your ethnic group. But I think that's a very fine line that a significant number of people cross, and the overall effect among the members of that group is going to make discrimination more likely. I know that just in my field, there are some law firms that are known to heavily prefer jewish people, or Irish, or italian, or any other group.

Personally I think having more than one culture to identify with should make most people less likely to discriminate against others. If you appreciate cultural differences within your own self, I would think that would correlate with appreciating them in others.

Well, in evaluating that, consider the flipside. If you're not someone who places value on cultural or ethnic differences, it seems that would almost be the definition of someone who doesn't discriminate.

FWIW, I think this is a really interesting subject. In my city, there's the perception of an "Irish Mafia" of political/legal figures who tend to go to certain presitgious local prep schools, and who look out for each other professionally, etc. One of my friends is pretty heavily involved in that. What it boils down to is that he truly doesn't believe that preferring members of his own ethnic groups is the same as discriminating against others not in that group. And I think it is.

[TerraPrime]

I love when a race argument comes up, every white person has that "my black friend" story to back up their argument.

That's why I collect a set of friends that represent all spectrums of importance. To keep my shelf space manageable, I particularly go for multiple category-friends, like a black lesbian or a Christian conservative.

[Young Wolf]

That's why I collect a set of friends that represent all spectrums of importance. To keep my shelf space manageable, I particularly go for multiple category-friends, like a black lesbian or a Christian conservative.

That's why I keep you as a friend, because anytime I want to sound intelligent I say,"I have a friend TerraPrime, and he says...". And you cover multiple categories as well. :P

[Hereward]

Oh, so I'm only here in case you need to pull the incredibly-suave-yet dashing-aristocratic-Englishman card.

I'm so offended. Though oddly excited.