‘I’m not African-American,’ some blacks insist

[fitheach]

Re: fitheach

As I said, if the shoe doesn't fit, then don't wear it.

If you haven't used the ethnicity of your friends to add validity to your argument, or if you haven't used it to deflect criticisms of racism against you, then you are not the type of people that I am talking about.

Did you read the posts by sivin that led to youngwolf's response?

Why would I want to figure out where you stand in the cultural mix? Why wouldn't I just ask you if I were curious? And what does that have to do with what I have been saying?

Because your words lead me to think your assuming... If someone mentions their friend(s) of another race, it isn't necessarily to support the argument- but to give context and personal experience. I'm being honest in my answers and am not trying to prop it up by mentioning some random black people I've overheard talking, but serious conversations my friends and I have had over the years about our lives and experiences. What Young Wolf seemed to be suggesting (and your seeming to support), I didn't see targeted at any poster in particular- but at all the posters who've mentioned having black friends. He's basically saying that no one can mention their experience on this topic unless they are black or a minority..

This is what Young Wolf said:

I love when a race argument comes up, every white person has that "my black friend" story to back up their argument.

So, who was he (she?) talking to- other than every poster who mentioned their black friends? This is offensive no matter how you word it. YW could say- "I love it when race comes up, every Asian person has that "my white friend" story to back up their argument." Either way you cut it, it's flippant and somewhat offensive.

[Balefont]

Well, yeah, but it was the one you gave, so that's why I addressed it. There are other situations where it may be fair to conclude that both the person and the "friend" are racist/bigoted.

I'd agree, because no matter a person's particular taste in sexual attractiveness, the claim that all women of a certain background are unattractive is racist.

I'd agree in some situations. But I think there is an aspect of that which isn't bad at all. The reality is that there are a great many people who are not racists, have friends of different races, and never really give race a second thought. There are also people out there who levy a lot of unjustified accusations of racism. And I could see that if a person who isn't a racist is being accused of it unjustifiably, they may be perplexed by the basis of the accusation. And their natural thought is "what the hell are you talking about -- I don't value people by race, and I've got friends who are black". I don't think there is anything wrong with a response like that, because how else do you respond to someone levying an unjustified charge of racism? How can you prove that you're not?

O.o

What if you're not racist but don't have any friends who are considered a minority? What then?

But there are times it is a valid point because accusations of racism are levied too easily by some. The best argument I've ever heard against affirmative action came from two blacks I knew from law school. They were both strongly opposed to the law school using affirmative action to put minorities on Law Review, because they believed it stigmatized any minority who belonged. Now, if that argument comes from someone who is white, you just know the allegations of racism would be all over the place.

ORLY?

But those allegations couldn't credibly be made against someone who is black, because what's their possible motive? And if it is possible for someone who is black to hold an opinion that isn't based on racism, then it is surely possible for a white person to hold the exact same opinion without being a racist. In essence, the argument that "I know a black person who thinks the same thing" is really nothing more than forcing the accuser to check their premises, and ensure that the inference of racism is justified.

And Cain thought his 9-9-9 tax plan was fair even though it would hurt more people of his minority group. Surely his motives were completely in-line with the black community because he's black!

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

What if you're not racist but don't have any friends who are considered a minority? What then?

Then you just tell the accuser to fuck off.

And Cain thought his 9-9-9 tax plan was fair even though it would hurt more people of his minority group. Surely his motives were completely in-line with the black community because he's black!

What does that have to do with racism? Are you saying that 9-9-9 was racist because it wasn't supported by most blacks?

[TerraPrime]

I'd agree in some situations. But I think there is an aspect of that which isn't bad at all. The reality is that there are a great many people who are not racists, have friends of different races, and never really give race a second thought. There are also people out there who levy a lot of unjustified accusations of racism. And I could see that if a person who isn't a racist is being accused of it unjustifiably, they may be perplexed by the basis of the accusation. And their natural thought is "what the hell are you talking about -- I don't value people by race, and I've got friends who are black". I don't think there is anything wrong with a response like that, because how else do you respond to someone levying an unjustified charge of racism? How can you prove that you're not?

Well, yeah, if you start off with the premise that the person being criticized is not a racist. I don't make that assumption. I assume that most people are racist, to some extent. Not racist as in "I am a card-carrying member of the KKK," for sure. But we make assumptions about people based on their skin color, and sometimes we refuse to let those presumptions go even given counter-evidence. Now, this is just me. I'm sure there are plenty of ethnic minority people out there who don't carry similar world views about this issue.

But, regardless of how the two of us see the world differently, the "I have a black friend" excuse really doesn't mitigate any accusation of racism, be it justified or not. Presumably, we all have mothers, and yet, here we are, plenty of sexists to show for it. Clearly, having mothers doesn't preclude someone from developing sexist views and opinions. Hell, even having daughters and wives are no guarantee that someone is not a sexist. So why should having a black friend be a valid counter-argument against any sort of accusation of racism?

And, really, if people who are ethnic minorities can only make friends with those in the dominant group who are 100% free of racism, we wouldn't have that many friends.

While I was a student in Georgia, plenty of other students put the rebel's flag on their trucks and dorm windows. I still hanged out with them in groups, and I even went to some of their parties. Am I a friend? Yes, loosely speaking. Acquaintance, perhaps. But do I think they're racist? Yes, absolutely. Do they know that I think they're racist? No, because it was not something we talked about.

Now, if that argument comes from someone who is white, you just know the allegations of racism would be all over the place. And the basis would have been the belief that this wasn't the "real" justification for opposing affirmative action, but just one of convenience adopted by someone who is white to hide truly discriminatory motives.

But those allegations couldn't credibly be made against someone who is black, because what's their possible motive? And if it is possible for someone who is black to hold an opinion that isn't based on racism, then it is surely possible for a white person to hold the exact same opinion without being a racist. In essence, the argument that "I know a black person who thinks the same thing" is really nothing more than forcing the accuser to check their premises, and ensure that the inference of racism is justified.

Just because argument X does not require one to be a racist to advance, it does not follow that someone who advances argument X is not a racist, no? For sure, we cannot say that Person A is a racist *because* they advance argument X, but neither does it preclude it.

Also, if your opponent in a debate is going to decide whether an argument is racist or not based on the ethnicity of the person making that argument, you're already going to lose the game, because that's not someone who's rational, and arguing with irrational people is only fun for killing time on the internet.

But yes, I do agree that in some cases, the accusation of racism is levied without sufficient evidence to support it, and that makes the other side defensive. I can also see how, in that defensive mentality, one might try to present oneself in a positive light by showcasing one's friends who happen to be ethnic minority. All of that is understandable.

Far as countering accusations of racism goes, I'd say just challenge their argument. What evidence are they using to say that I'm a racist? Challenge those evidence. If they're saying that my argument about abolishing affirmative action is what makes me a racist, then I will ask them to show me the links, etc.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

But, regardless of how the two of us see the world differently, the "I have a black friend" excuse really doesn't mitigate any accusation of racism, be it justified or not. Presumably, we all have mothers, and yet, here we are, plenty of sexists to show for it.

That is a terrible argument. You don't choose your mother, but you do choose your friends.

Just because argument X does not require one to be a racist to advance, it does not follow that someone who advances argument X is not a racist, no? For sure, we cannot say that Person A is a racist *because* they advance argument X, but neither does it preclude it.

I agree completely with you here. But this issue generally only comes up when someone is making an accusation of racism based on someone advancing such an argument. So as you say, that accusation is not justified by those facts. That really is the only point I'm making.

Far as countering accusations of racism goes, I'd say just challenge their argument. What evidence are they using to say that I'm a racist? Challenge those evidence. If they're saying that my argument about abolishing affirmative action is what makes me a racist, then I will ask them to show me the links, etc.

Well, you're right. And it is possible for reasonable people to have that type of analytical discussion. But I think it is a lot more likely to occur on the internet than in person. In person, those discussions tend to result in a lot of posturing, hurt feelings, and a lack of objective analysis. And of course, that's particularly true when the person being accused really is racist.

[Balefont]

Then you just tell the accuser to fuck off.

hahahha

But seriously, why don't you just do that anyway without saying, "I'm not racist. I have friends who are minorities!"

What does that have to do with racism? Are you saying that 9-9-9 was racist because it wasn't supported by most blacks?

My point is that people can have good and bad ideas/motives regardless of their ethnic background. People should do their best to not assign motive based on the color of the person's skin.

[deleted01]

In what social context? "Southall Black Sisters" is the only time I've ever come across even a sniff of this, and I assume that that's because "Southall Black, Indian, Bangladeshi and Various Other Ethnic Group Sisters" doesn't scan properly.

I don't know, to be perfectly honest. My lecturer is a fool. He also said that I was an ignorant racist because I wasn't aware that Sikhs are allowed to carry a blade as it's a part of their religion. I asked him to enlighten me, and explain in that case, whether religion or law comes first - genuinely interested, seeing as I'm studying policing - and he said he has 'no time for ignorant racists'. Ahh the money I'm paying for the Great British Education System <_<

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

hahahha

But seriously, why don't you just do that anyway without saying, "I'm not racist. I have friends who are minorities!"

Personally, I do use "fuckoff", along with the "ignore" function if it happens here. Other people with more patience, though, may wish to attempt a defense. Honestly, though, I don't think I've ever been called a racist to my face. I think the closest it's come is someone saying that opposing affirmative action (hiring preferences based solely on race) is racist.

My point is that people can have good and bad ideas/motives regardless of their ethnic background. People should do their best to not assign motive based on the color of the person's skin.

I agree completely.

[fitheach]

So what if the person who mentions their black friends, is also a minority?

[Balefont]

So what if the person who mentions their black friends, is also a minority?

Why use their POVs to secure your own argument?

[Nukelavee]

Just because argument X does not require one to be a racist to advance, it does not follow that someone who advances argument X is not a racist, no? For sure, we cannot say that Person A is a racist *because* they advance argument X, but neither does it preclude it.

Also, if your opponent in a debate is going to decide whether an argument is racist or not based on the ethnicity of the person making that argument, you're already going to lose the game, because that's not someone who's rational, and arguing with irrational people is only fun for killing time on the internet.

But yes, I do agree that in some cases, the accusation of racism is levied without sufficient evidence to support it, and that makes the other side defensive. I can also see how, in that defensive mentality, one might try to present oneself in a positive light by showcasing one's friends who happen to be ethnic minority. All of that is understandable.

Far as countering accusations of racism goes, I'd say just challenge their argument. What evidence are they using to say that I'm a racist? Challenge those evidence. If they're saying that my argument about abolishing affirmative action is what makes me a racist, then I will ask them to show me the links, etc.

And then here, Terra, we agree. Mostly. I don't know I'd say everybody is racist, but everybody is biased. I know where some of my biases are, and know I have some I'm not even aware of. Personally, I resist buying into steroetypes as much as I can, conciously, because, well, they simply aren't accurate, and (selfishly, if nothing else), it seems stupid to start any interaction based on information I already know isn't accurate.

As for the "black friend" quote, maybe to you it's a strawman, but.......(heh) you aren't white. And you definately got a different meaning from it than some of us did. I saw it as a "whatever dude, sure, yeah, you have an accurate opinion or valid experience", which, seriously, if you are white, gets tiresome in discussions like this. Why? Because, I don't like racism. But it's pretty common to have anything I say get dismissed (at least on sites like this) because, y'know, I'm white and can't know anything about it, unless a minority tells me, and more back him or her up.

I don't want this to sound like "boohoo, whitey is getting shafted", because that's not my point. My point is, well, how can a solution be reached if one party can't be taken seriously.

So far as it being convenient that some of us ethnic buddies that agree with us, but never mention those that don't...I don't have many friends that I disagree strongly with on things like that. I might know people, but I'm not friends with them. Seriously, if my buddy Mike had a serious issue with me calling him black, when he prefers something else (knowing Mike, something else would either be Canadian, or wealthy), we likely wouldn't be friends.

I can understand not liking people for personal reasons, I can concieve of it for national rivalries (up to , say, historical bitter enemies), basing it on race I simply can't relate to.

[fitheach]

Why use their POVs to secure your own argument?

No, honest question considering where this thread went with Young Wolf's comment. I can't ask this without you thinking my POV is securing an argument? My best friends are black, this is a fact, and they call me white (as well as a Latinacan't).. Not trying to secure anything, just mentioning what they've said.. Juuust passing along what I'm told, never said it's the word of all.. I wouldn't take any issue with my friends mentioning me (or my experiences) in a conversation- and I'm sure they have.. Did you read what I said before Young Wolf's comment? Maybe you should before assuming..

Thanks for doing an ol' switcheroo though.. What's that? I know what you are, but what am I?? Is that what it's called? We all play that.

Remember, this all started with Young Wolf saying (paraphrasing now) how he "loved when whitey says they have a black friend to back up their argument"..

Edit: Grrr! Nevermind, I can't say anything right..

[Balefont]

Easy there, killer, you're sounding like you're taking things a little personally.

My point is, why use a descriptor of you friend's [ insert minority here ] at all when trying to establish validation for your POV? You could just say you have friends who agree with your position. That's all.

[fitheach]

Easy there, killer, you're sounding like you're taking things a little personally.

My point is, why use a descriptor of you friend's [ insert minority here ] at all when trying to establish validation for your POV? You could just say you have friends who agree with your position. That's all.

And if I did that, you (or others) would say- "What does this poster know about this issue?! Why would you say, and what do you know, about some people preferring to be called one thing over another?"

So, to save this step I mention (and some other posters) who the information is coming from, why it matters to my friends- from what they've said to me. That it's only based on conversations with my friends.. So, maybe some people are doing the "I have friends" bit and in fact don't- I don't know and will not assume. So yeah.. I'm not giving statistics, only personal information. But obviously that's not acceptable.

[SI Monster]

In my opinion, the term African-American is incorrect because it's inaccurate. Africa is a continent and not a singular country with multiple ethnic groups living in each country that vary not only by skin tone but by geological region. Me personally, I'm six generations removed from slavery, but x-amount a generations away from my last African born ancestor. The question I pose to people that don't agree with me referring to myself as an American who is Black is, at what point will we be Americans? Hell, if you ask most African born immigrants or even visitors to this country, they often refer to themselves by what specific country in Africa they are from (Ghana, Angoloa, Morocco). But I have noticed that when you speak to a Zulu from South Africa, they don't call themselves South Africans, they call themselves Zulu. So again, at what point will we be Americans?

To close, here's some homework: When's the last time you met an American of any race, creed, color, him or hum, that called themsevles just an American?

[Nukelavee]

I totally agree with Fitheach - If we did say "my buddy Mike says it's fine", odds are you would say exactly that - why does their opinion matter? Because, y'know, all my friends must be white.

[Lightning Lord]

I refer to myself as an American with Ukrainian tendencies.

[fitheach]

What SI Monster said- thumbs up.

[Salome the Persian Witch]

This is the only thing I feel I can add to this conversation.

Oh, and Lightning Lord - isn't you penance coming up for your lost bet with Mya, or are you just taunting us with your avatar now?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

In my opinion, the term African-American is incorrect because it's inaccurate. Africa is a continent and not a singular country with multiple ethnic groups living in each country that vary not only by skin tone but by geological region. Me personally, I'm six generations removed from slavery, but x-amount a generations away from my last African born ancestor. The question I pose to people that don't agree with me referring to myself as an American who is Black is, at what point will we be Americans? Hell, if you ask most African born immigrants or even visitors to this country, they often refer to themselves by what specific country in Africa they are from (Ghana, Angoloa, Morocco). But I have noticed that when you speak to a Zulu from South Africa, they don't call themselves South Africans, they call themselves Zulu. So again, at what point will we be Americans?

To close, here's some homework: When's the last time you met an American of any race, creed, color, him or hum, that called themsevles just an American?

Most "African-Americans" may be more "American" than the majority of whites here, given that they likely have longer roots in this country. None of my ancestors immigrated here until after 1880.

One of the things I personally like most about this country is that there is no particular racial/ethnic background that makes you "American". I mentioned in the other thread the woman who was recently naturalized who stopped the flag-burning. If you look at the members of our military who serve, you see people of every racial and cultural background, all bonded together by the more important things they have in common.

Maybe that is a romanticized view of things, but I'd much rather idealize that kind of world as opposed to one where we divide each other up by our racial differences.