Heresy 6

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

Old Nan's stories

Book 5

Dance with Dragons

Bran, p. 73 (out of 916)

Bran found himself remembering the tales Old Nan had told him when he was a babe. Beyond

the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she

would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall

stands strong and the men of the Night’s Watch are true.

Bran, p. 399

“Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once

he had returned to his own skin. “Some girl. I felt her.”

“A woman, of those who sing the song of earth,” his teacher said. “Long dead, yet a part of her

remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow.

A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.”

“Do all the birds have singers in them?”

“All,” Lord Brynden said. “It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by

raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and

so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never

shared their skin.”

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered.

Jon, p. 408

The wind was gusting, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan had told when Jon was a boy.

Jon, p. 455

Wun Wun was very little like the giants in Old Nan’s tales, those huge savage creatures who mixed blood into their morning porridge and devoured whole bulls, hair and hide and horns.

Arya, p. 526

Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell

when she had still been Arya Stark. “After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the

wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and

carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart

and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhome to make

repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn’t have room for all of them, so

they said they’d just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent

out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below

and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the

ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the

Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto’s think that she’ll return with more ships.

The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at

Hardhome.”

Jon, p. 563

The snowfall was light today, a thin scattering of flakes dancing in the air, but the wind was

blowing from the east along the Wall, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan used to

tell.

Theon, p. 585

Theon would have laughed if he had dared. He remembered tales Old Nan had told them

of storms that raged for forty days and forty nights, for a year, for ten years … storms that buried castles

and cities and whole kingdoms under a hundred feet of snow.

I know there are a lot of stuff not really relevant so feel free to merge all into one more useful post. I have just picked it all out.

[protar]

Sorry if I'm intruding. This is my first post in the heresy threads. Haven't read all of them of course and they're interesting but I'm not really sure what to think. Has the horn of Joramun been discussed? I have a few ideas on that but I don't want to be off topic.

[Lummel]

Sorry if I'm intruding. This is my first post in the heresy threads. Haven't read all of them of course and they're interesting but I'm not really sure what to think. Has the horn of Joramun been discussed? I have a few ideas on that but I don't want to be off topic.

be bold, be bold, but not too bold least your heart's blood run cold!

Welcome to the heresy threads! Don't be shy, share your idea with us and then we can all discuss it. Please have a look at some of the older threads too if you are interested ( Heresy 5 Heresy 4 Heresy 3 Original heresy ).

[mrazny]

Sorry if I'm intruding. This is my first post in the heresy threads. Haven't read all of them of course and they're interesting but I'm not really sure what to think. Has the horn of Joramun been discussed? I have a few ideas on that but I don't want to be off topic.

We have discussed in part the idea that Joruman's horn is the broken horn that Sam still has. We've also started to think it odd that Joruman, who has the horn that can bring down the wall, cared enough to help the Stark of Winterfell defeat the Night's King. Joruman's horn also wakes the sleeping giants, giants perhaps helped build the wall, and Joruman has the horn that brings down the wall...

So when was the horn created? As part of the Night's King ordeal? Or at the onset of the building of the wall? If we take as true that the NK was the 13th LC, with the 1st LC starting his term at the building of the wall, that would mean Joruman was important enough to have a horn at that time, and live as leader through the first 13 Lord Commanders. Still sounds like a LONG time by any standard short of the LC is sacrificed every year.

I forget if the quote said a hundred years in the first go around of building the wall, or if it said hundreds... Yes that could have left large sections along the line that hadn't been built yet, or it could have been the first building was a target of a 20ft, or 30 ft. stone wall before it had ice added to it strategically. In that sense, how did they go about it? build the first 5 ft for the length of the wall, then double back? Build it at the full 20-30 ft and slowly extend from east watch to the shadow tower? Start at the Night Fort building slowly in each direction?

We need the biography of joruman

[protar]

Well my theory was that there are dragons (perhaps ice dragons) beneath The Wall, and that the horn wakes them. It seems odd to me that the horn is constantly described as bringing down The Wall, and yet the line used to describe it is:

"And Joramun woke the horn of winter, and woke giants from the earth." The myths contradict. So I thought that overtime Dragons were mistranslated as giants, and that by waking dragons beneath The Wall, The Wall is destroyed. The above phrase would suggest that Joramun has already blown the horn however, perhaps in response to the whole Night's King thing? But that would mean The Wall has already been destroyed and rebuilt. Or maybe the dragons came before The Wall, which was built over it. My theory hasn't really been built around these Heresy threads so it doesn't really fit, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Well my theory was that there are dragons (perhaps ice dragons) beneath The Wall, and that the horn wakes them. It seems odd to me that the horn is constantly described as bringing down The Wall, and yet the line used to describe it is:

"And Joramun woke the horn of winter, and woke giants from the earth." The myths contradict. So I thought that overtime Dragons were mistranslated as giants, and that by waking dragons beneath The Wall, The Wall is destroyed. The above phrase would suggest that Joramun has already blown the horn however, perhaps in response to the whole Night's King thing? But that would mean The Wall has already been destroyed and rebuilt. Or maybe the dragons came before The Wall, which was built over it. My theory hasn't really been built around these Heresy threads so it doesn't really fit, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

Welcome Protar! I have had the same thoughts as well, with the giants being ice dragons because of the line used to descibe the horn. I really don't know if the horn has been used anytime except what it says in the line you provided. Also the way Jon goes on about Old Nan's ice dragon stories made me wonder if there might be something to it. I believe in ADWD Jon refers to ice dragons alot, like "it's as cold as an ice dragon's breath" (or something like it) so there may be actual ice dragon's, or it might be possible that Jon is the ice dragon. What ever it turns out Old Nan knows to much and she is a treasue!

Btw Cap Ou Pas Cap Thank you so much, I have wanted some one to put Old Nan's stories together like this so much!!! And thank you FanTansy for asking some one to do it! Now why didn't I think of that?

[Elaena Targaryen]

The Night's King-one thing stuck out to me. So most of us suspect that the Night's Watch oath has been changed from the original oath, adding take no wives, father no children, hold no lands, shall wear no crowns, ect. I always assumed it could be connected to the Andals and them joining the watch/accepted in the north. So maybe it can be connected to the Night's King instead, he took a wife, maybe fathered children that were the "sacrifices", maybe wanted or tried to hold land, and as a king he may have had a crown. What do you guys think? Probably not a new idea so I wondered if it was hashed out already.

I think it can be viewed as romantic on the abnormal part, maybe the NK did not want to sacrifice himself (like may have been the normal thing) because he wanted to stay with his bride. Silly I know but I'm a romantic. :)

One more thing stuck out to me, the "with strange sorceries he bound the Sworn Brothers to his will" now I always assumed that it was his queen that did this so maybe she taught or helped him, but this might point to some thing else entirely. Any ideas? I have some but this may not be too important.

[the average Other]

I know some of it is not really relevant (wizards and knights and galleys), but I have listed all of it just in case.

Don't worry, our twisted minds can make anything relevant. :)

The Night's King-one thing stuck out to me. So most of us suspect that the Night's Watch oath has been changed from the original oath, adding take no wives, father no children, hold no lands, shall wear no crowns, ect. I always assumed it could be connected to the Andals and them joining the watch/accepted in the north. So maybe it can be connected to the Night's King instead, he took a wife, maybe fathered children that were the "sacrifices", maybe wanted or tried to hold land, and as a king he may have had a crown. What do you guys think? Probably not a new idea so I wondered if it was hashed out already.

I played earlier with the idea that the Watch started out as an independent organization, as someone's (the Night King's?) private army, and the vows were added after their original leader had been removed by other lords to make the Watch safer - like pulling teeth of a captured bear before keeping it as a pet and making it dance for you.

Assorted thoughts about Old Nan's stories:

- Lots of blood drinking beyond the Wall, but I don't think we've seen any (yet).

- "This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old". What's this all about? King of what, why was he located at the Wall, and why did he want to curse the Andals? Are Andals "of old" somehow different from the later Andals? What was the curse?

- Night's King was a normal man by day, but ruled the night. Another strange snippet of info. Does she mean that his magic didn't work by day? But then why didn't his ensorcelled men escape or turn against him during the day? Could he summon the night? How did he change at dusk from normal to abnormal?

- Old Nan seems to be super-knowledgeable, not only of old traditional stories, but also new contemporary stuff, like Dagmer Cleftjaw. Is she secretly a dreamer? It's also interesting that she's told about every other story in existence, but not the stories of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell and the Harrenhall tournament. But maybe that's a subject for the R+L=J thread.

[History of Westeros]

*standard massive thread disclaimer that this suggestion may not be new*

Have we considered the possibility that the man sacrificed in Bran's vision was one of the NK's predecessors? This would fit in with theory that the NK was breaking tradition by refusing to be sacrificed.

[Lummel]

Thanks for Night's Kings ideas I have made some additions to the Night's King post.

On Joramun's horn...I wonder if it was a horn given to Joramun by the King of Winter (hence the name, the Horn of Winter). Or maybe the awakening the giants was part of the war or struggle between the giants and their allies (the ancient wildings) against the those who enslaved the giants and used them in building the Wall such as the children and the other first men?

In other words maybe the significance of the horn is not about what it can do in the future but about what it did in the past, rather like the sword Dawn?

But all this is just a raven flight of fancy of course...

[Aluminum Link]

We have discussed in part the idea that Joruman's horn is the broken horn that Sam still has. We've also started to think it odd that Joruman, who has the horn that can bring down the wall, cared enough to help the Stark of Winterfell defeat the Night's King. Joruman's horn also wakes the sleeping giants, giants perhaps helped build the wall, and Joruman has the horn that brings down the wall...

So when was the horn created? As part of the Night's King ordeal? Or at the onset of the building of the wall? If we take as true that the NK was the 13th LC, with the 1st LC starting his term at the building of the wall, that would mean Joruman was important enough to have a horn at that time, and live as leader through the first 13 Lord Commanders. Still sounds like a LONG time by any standard short of the LC is sacrificed every year.

I forget if the quote said a hundred years in the first go around of building the wall, or if it said hundreds... Yes that could have left large sections along the line that hadn't been built yet, or it could have been the first building was a target of a 20ft, or 30 ft. stone wall before it had ice added to it strategically. In that sense, how did they go about it? build the first 5 ft for the length of the wall, then double back? Build it at the full 20-30 ft and slowly extend from east watch to the shadow tower? Start at the Night Fort building slowly in each direction?

We need the biography of joruman

This has probably been mentioned elsewhere before, but isn't it also possible that the Horn of Joruman is not a musical instrument at all, but a horn of gunpowder.

http://en.wikipedia....28ammunition%29

If such a horn were blown (up) it might certainly be capable of bringing down a large chunk of the wall. It would also make a sound big enough "to wake giants". Finally, the Wall is ice. Gunpowder could be considered a form of fire. It seems more fitting that fire (rather than music) would bring down the Wall.

I'll leave it to others to speculate on where the gunpowder might have come from. But, I will point out that if this theory were true, it would be awfully similar to events surrounding Helm's Deep in Lord of the Rings where Saruman (I think) managed to create something like gunpowder which had previously been unknown in that world.

[FanTasy]

- Old Nan seems to be super-knowledgeable, not only of old traditional stories, but also new contemporary stuff, like Dagmer Cleftjaw. Is she secretly a dreamer? It's also interesting that she's told about every other story in existence, but not the stories of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell and the Harrenhall tournament. But maybe that's a subject for the R+L=J thread.

Yes, that is something that struck me as well. We know from Catelyn's chapter in AGOT that when she asked Ned about Jon's origin, he commanded her to tell him the source. Then the rumours stopped. In a later book, when Arya meets one of the Winterfell lads (Harwyn?) he also says that this is not to be spoken about. So I suspect that Old Nan was instructed by Ned to tell no stories that could connect to Jon's origin.

[Black Crow]

I'm genuinely humbled at what has been produced by my suggestion that we who are grown old in heresy should summarise what we've been discussing, particularly Lummel's very solid piece on the Night's King and Cap's concordance to Old Nan's tales - this really should be pinned for future reference. :bowdown:

[protar]

This has probably been mentioned elsewhere before, but isn't it also possible that the Horn of Joruman is not a musical instrument at all, but a horn of gunpowder.

http://en.wikipedia....28ammunition%29

If such a horn were blown (up) it might certainly be capable of bringing down a large chunk of the wall. It would also make a sound big enough "to wake giants". Finally, the Wall is ice. Gunpowder could be considered a form of fire. It seems more fitting that fire (rather than music) would bring down the Wall.

I'll leave it to others to speculate on where the gunpowder might have come from. But, I will point out that if this theory were true, it would be awfully similar to events surrounding Helm's Deep in Lord of the Rings where Saruman (I think) managed to create something like gunpowder which had previously been unknown in that world.

I would really love gunpowder to come about in ASOIAF at some point, but if the horn of winter was a horn of gunpowder, would it still work after thousands of years? Would be kind of pointless to mention it and then have it not work. Personally I think that Measters have invented gunpowder secretly, though that's kind of OT.

[Eyron]

Hi folks!

Great Night's King post Lummel, and Cap, that Old Nan summary will be extremely useful, thanks a lot!

I have been a little to busy so I haven't made an essay on anything yet, I'll get back to it when more free time comes my way, hopefully in a day or two...

The Night's King-one thing stuck out to me. So most of us suspect that the Night's Watch oath has been changed from the original oath, adding take no wives, father no children, hold no lands, shall wear no crowns, ect. I always assumed it could be connected to the Andals and them joining the watch/accepted in the north. So maybe it can be connected to the Night's King instead, he took a wife, maybe fathered children that were the "sacrifices", maybe wanted or tried to hold land, and as a king he may have had a crown. What do you guys think? Probably not a new idea so I wondered if it was hashed out already.

I think it can be viewed as romantic on the abnormal part, maybe the NK did not want to sacrifice himself (like may have been the normal thing) because he wanted to stay with his bride. Silly I know but I'm a romantic. :)

One more thing stuck out to me, the "with strange sorceries he bound the Sworn Brothers to his will" now I always assumed that it was his queen that did this so maybe she taught or helped him, but this might point to some thing else entirely. Any ideas? I have some but this may not be too important.

You're not silly, one of the themes in these books has been how love destroys men. Cheerful isn't it ;)

I also think that part of the oath could have come from this event, from him trying to establish a house in his name at the Nightfort, having sons and a wife. I think it' possible she could have been something else than a WW, but I will leave that for now, there is no good reason to think so at the moment.

The sorcery bit, I'm not convinced there was any sorcery going on, since we had no other example of this kind of sorcery. It has been suggested that the queensmen are under spell by Melisandre, but I have not found anything that implies that in the text so I doubt that.

That said... he bound his brothers to his will sounds a little like making wights, the wights seem bound to somebody else's will, and resurrected by some kind of sorcery. And, as recently discussed in the last thread, wightifying = resurrection may be the actual sacrifices of the Ice lot (thanks to FanTasy), so that could be the sacrifices he did to the Others. Well, maybe ;) It's the best explanation I can think of so far.

I mean if his wife indeed was a WW, wouldn't she need to surround herself with that cold white we hear so much about? Would that cold not kill off the Night's Kings sworn brothers and make them into wights just by proximity? The Night's King himself could be immune, like some people in the present time in the story might be. Maybe Coldhands, the Children and Starks? Just a thought...

[FanTasy]

<Night's King was a normal man by day, but ruled the night>

Good catch, this could have given him his name Nights King. I always thought he was called as that because he considered himself the king of the Nights Watch. That he only ruled the night could mean he was a kind of 'Spike' (like Buffy's Spike :wub: ).

All this associations of drinking blood ... before we know it this turns into a vampire story ...

But that the Nights King ruled the night could mean that he somehow was afflicted by his spouse, the pale cold woman with eyes like blue stars.

That by being her consort he was not able to live in daylight, to face sunlight.

ETA By day he seemed a normal man, something happened during the night. Because he gave his soul to the pale woman?

[Black Crow]

That would of course imply that he himself was become a White Walker - of ice and liable to melt if he felt the wearmth of the sun.

- really must sort out Professor Crow's dissertation on the Walkers...

[Elaena Targaryen]

Thanks for Night's Kings ideas I have made some additions to the Night's King post.

On Joramun's horn...I wonder if it was a horn given to Joramun by the King of Winter (hence the name, the Horn of Winter). Or maybe the awakening the giants was part of the war or struggle between the giants and their allies (the ancient wildings) against the those who enslaved the giants and used them in building the Wall such as the children and the other first men?

In other words maybe the significance of the horn is not about what it can do in the future but about what it did in the past, rather like the sword Dawn?

But all this is just a raven flight of fancy of course...

Yes I forgot (to mention in my other post) that this is what I believe now. It may very well have been you that convinced of this in earlier threads. :)

On the Night's King I thought you layed out a wonderfull summary on the NK and it was only appropriate to start the disscusion. It is very kind of you to credit others for their thoughts and I would like to point out the original posters from the first three threads have gotten us so far in the analysis so thanks everyone!

I agree Eria, FanTansy, and Black Crow, that information does seem to suggest the Night's King and his Queen must have been WW, or some thing very similar.

[Lummel]

A horn of gunpowder wouldn't be very much, you'd want something much more explosive than gunpowder if you wanted to bring part of the wall down :dunno:

Eira, it just struck me that getting people to swear an oath is another way of binding people to your will. If the Winterfell Stark and Joramun wanted to blacken the name of the Night's King then isn't magic the kind of excuse they would envoke to explain how he could get away with what he did?

But yes I agree that 'normal man by day but ruled the night' is fascinating. Are White Walkers associated with the night? What about if he was a warg? His beasts might be active even while the 'normal man' slept. I did wonder since the Night's King saw the woman from the top of the wall if maybe that implied that he was warging an eagle or similarly sharp eyed beast?

[Eyron]

Oooo good thinking Lummel!

An oath, having men swear to HIM rather than the weirwoods?

That could piss plenty of people off, including Joramun the wildling who may have been threatened by this (if he lived beyond the Wall)... The Stark in Winterfell who may have been in charge of keeping the pact, and the Children. I agree that sorcery is a very good excuse. But, is it not odd that his name had to be erased if this was true? There are plenty of LC's that have gone rogue but they are named, would it be only because he was a Stark?

The other thought I had about the accusation of sorcery was that the NK was a skinchanger, but I think it would be very very hard to possess many men at the same time, and to skip and jump between them and manage to keep them friendly seems impossible. That's why I think that the brothers being wights makes more sense (perhaps also through skinchanging). Maybe the tales should say so if this was the case, but we know other information has been obscured about the NK so this could also be tweaked a little.

And, the white walkers are indeed associated with the night, they hid in the shadows and the darkness, hating the sun. Or brought the dark with them, it's a bit fuzzy.

Black Crow, I also think the Night's King was something else than the average bloke. How else would he survive that cold Lady...

That "normal man by day" is curious, I wonder if it meant a regular every day - every night kind of change, or if it was a long summer - long winter deal... Or if he was a halfling? Half man-half WW? Curiouser and curiouser...

Fantasy, good point about the soul, he gave her his seed and by that he gave his soul to the Cold Lady. So what did she do with it? Children? White mists? To make a parallel to Melisande and Stannis, and that ice preserves as opposed to consumes, Stannis' flame of life faded with every shadow baby, did the Night's King's life force become stronger from his *union* with the Cold Lady?

What would that lead to? A longer life? Increased strength? Increased powers, such as skinchanging abilities?

Another idea about the opposite effects/processes, Melisandre tapped into Stannis' *flame* in the process, weakening him, did the Cold Lady strengthen the Night's Kings *ice*, making him cold and strong?

The night is the time for ghosts, the white morning mists are ghosts returning to their graves according to Old Nan, the "stalking shadows" seem to be synonymous with the white walkers according to her (see Cap's post, top of this page, first paragraph) and in other cases shadows are synonymous with ghosts or dead spirits. Well, I am not sure where I am going with this but it seems connected to the WWs.

And last but not least it seems connected to the dead Starks in their crypts, that are kept in their tombs with iron, possibly.

If the Night's King had children, would the Stark in Winterfell have the nerve and heart to have them killed? I have suggested before that maybe they were taken as wards to Winterfell, if there were any children, since kinslaying is baaaad. At some point they could have been made part of the Stark line, or married into it, or made heirs from lack of other children. If so their traits would be part of the Stark heritage. This is pure speculation though, with the theme of brothers, siblings, cousins and wards, and the changing loyalties in mind.

Oh dear, I'm having a thinking spree...