Jump to content

The Blackfish


crown of gold

Recommended Posts

I'm subscribing to the Blackfish heading to 1 of 3 locals:

2. Greywater Watch - He may know Robb's post-death intentions and is seeking out Howland Reed (with or without a pregnant Jeyne). Robb already sent some bannermen that way in a previous book with his wishes for Jon. If Jeyne is pregnant, those plans could have changed and BF is headed to inform everyone before word spreads to Jon. The only issue I have with this is that there are currently no POVs in that area, so a completely new POV would have to be created to give the storyline. I doubt GRRM wants to install another POV for this purpose, though I am sure Howland Reed will have a part to play soon.

Breinne and Jamie are not too far from there are they, and who said howland has to stay in the neck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

In regards to the Blackfish, he, as I have stated before, is going to stick with his last command given to him by his Great-Nephew/King- Robb, "protect my Queen". The girl that Ser Jaime thinks is Jeyne, is not Jeyne. Also, it has been mentioned by others, Bran's visions from the Weirwood/Gods wood in Winterfell, a woman heavy with child crawling out of the hot-pool as if she had been hiding, praying to the Gods for a son to avenge her. I do not think this is a past lady Stark. I think this is Jeyne in the near future. Which means, the Blackfish intended to get Robb's Queen and unborn Heir (I know, there is no confirmation she was pregnant but "good hips", by Cat says it all) to Robb's ancestorial seat, Winterfell. It makes perfect sense. The Blackfish might be the hooded man in Winterfell, killing Freys (he has motive, would'nt any of you agree?)

What do you people think about this?

Agree. Many plausible theories have been presented on this thread. Although I haven't been through all theories, many do not account for the circumstances under which the Blackfish escapes the siege at Riverrun. Firstly, why escape? Blackfish was being offered the Night's Watch by Jaime, unpleasant as it maybe for him, he would have lived. His escape seems to have a far more solid reasoning than just appearing somewhere in the Vale, Barristan Selmy style, trying to make amends.

Second, If he had to forsake his vow to Robb, and had to abandon Jeyne to the Lannisters. Why not escape before Jaime arrives at Riverrun and the siege swells up?

While these questions stand, two crucial things happened right before the Blackfish's escape. One, Tom o' Sevens from the Brotherhood without Banners (BwB) shows up at Riverrun and is left alone with Edmure Tully (Ref. A Feast for Crows, Pg. 818, Mass Market Paperback Edition) by Jaime. Two, Edmure is sent into the castle to have Blackfish give up Riverrun, Edmure being the then lord of Riverrun.

So, the motive of Blackfish's escape. Thanks to Tom o' Sevens, Edmure and Blackfish know of Lady Stoneheart and the presence of BwB around Riverrun. Discovering the opportunity to keep his oath to Robb, Blackfish escapes Riverrun with Jeyne (Ref. The good hips, narrow hips controversy). The presence of the BwB in the Riverrun area is very much supported by the hanging of Ryman Frey while on his way to the Twins. Unequivocally, an act of BwB.

After delivering Jeyne to Lady Stoneheart, Blackfish would possibly make for Winterfell, at least it seems that is what Lady Stoneheart would ask of him. Consequently, we meet Blackfish as the hooded man in one of Theon's late chapters in DwD. The killing of Little Walder Frey at Winterfell seem his doing since we know Abel's girls weren't responsible for it. Also, the "disappearing" of the three Freys, Rhaegar, Jared and Symond while en route to Winterfell is likely the work of BwB, Blackfish and possibly the Manderlys collective.

What do you guys think?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After delivering Jeyne to Lady Stoneheart, Blackfish would possibly make for Winterfell, at least it seems that is what Lady Stoneheart would ask of him.

I wouldn't put it past Lady Stoneheart to kill Jeyne, pregnant or not....or at least try. This would complete to the cycle from good to evil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't put it past Lady Stoneheart to kill Jeyne, pregnant or not....or at least try. This would complete to the cycle from good to evil.

I would be more concerned for Edmure's wife, Roslyn, Stoneheart knows that she must have known about the plans for the Red Wedding and will probably think that Roslyn went along willingly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't put it past Lady Stoneheart to kill Jeyne, pregnant or not....or at least try. This would complete to the cycle from good to evil.

I am sorry, I seem to have missed your point there. Why would Lady Stoneheart hurt her son's wife who is also most like carrying Robb's heir?

I apologize if there was ambiguity in my original post. I meant Jeyne's deliverance to Lady Stoneheart would be the best scenario for Jeyne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the idea is that as Lady Stoneheart, Catelyn cares only about vengeance, and no longer cares about surviving members of her family. She seems barely interested when Brienne tells her she's found evidence of Arya.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When does Brienne do that? I had forgotten that. The BWB knows about Arya being alive and that she was carried off by the Hound, so it could hardly be a surprise to Catelyn. They know as much as Brienne does, except the bit about the true Hound's presence on the Quiet Isle. That wouldn't really help much in terms of getting anyone to where Arya is now though. I find it ironic actually that Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart is hanging with the BWB, since it is their fault that Arya/Catelyn weren't re-united in the first place. This INFURIATED me in ASOS, even though I knew the RW was coming and it was for the best. The way the BWB treated Arya - a 9-10 year old little girl who had just lived through Hell itself in Harrenhall, who was finally so close to her brother and mother - tying her up and dragging her around and holding her for ransom, was really despicable to me. And I wonder if it's not a coincidence that the most irritating of them - Lem Lemoncloak - is the one in the Hound's helm. I noticed GRRM took care to point out in Brienne's POV that his nose had been broken and "healed badly."

I keep hoping for a little more Catelyn in LS, because Beric wasn't that bad, and I would like to see her achieve a bit of peace before dying. It would be interesting if Blackfish were to meet up with her, but I don't think that's where things are going.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Greywater Watch - He may know Robb's post-death intentions and is seeking out Howland Reed (with or without a pregnant Jeyne). Robb already sent some bannermen that way in a previous book with his wishes for Jon. If Jeyne is pregnant, those plans could have changed and BF is headed to inform everyone before word spreads to Jon. The only issue I have with this is that there are currently no POVs in that area, so a completely new POV would have to be created to give the storyline. I doubt GRRM wants to install another POV for this purpose, though I am sure Howland Reed will have a part to play soon.

Doing a re-read of A Storm of Swords. Just wanted to come back to this thread and point out that the Blackfish never knew of Robb's document. The document was signed during Robb's journey to the Twins for "Edmure's Wedding" while the Blackfish was Riverrun's castellan, as we all know.

EDIT: Of course, Edmure could have told him of it when they met in Feast. Ignore the above argument.

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Vale may be in the best position to fight a war right now, that doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do before Winter. We all know winter is harsh in the vale, the Vale is more than ready for it to survive. The Riverlands are decimated, the North is running thin, why back them in a war against the Lannister and Tyrells who are also very well provisioned with Lannister gold and Highgardens lands haven't been touched by this war. They also think Dorne is on the side of the Lannister, even though we know they truly aren't.

The Vale Lords would be idiotic to go to war, especially for the Blackfishes losing cause, right now. Survive winter, then make your move, because winter is going to wreck havoc on the north and riverlands. Or just bend the knee to whomever wins the Throne and go on about your lives.

I was thinking that Lannisters' gold might become useless in winter. A buyer needs a seller and there may not be very many sellers with winter in full force, at least not locally. You can't eat your money :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am thinking that greywater watch will be involved in some way

I am of the same opinion.

I was thinking that Lannisters' gold might become useless in winter. A buyer needs a seller and there may not be very many sellers with winter in full force, at least not locally. You can't eat your money :)

After A Dance with Dragons, the Lannisters might be done for. The Tyrells may occupy the position the Lannisters have held so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I lean towards the Vale for the Blackfish. The Lords of the Vale of been itching to get into the fight throughout the series, and I think enough of them respect him to follow him to the Riverlands.

I know a lot of people him meeting up with uncat, but he seems like he would see her as a corruption of his niece, not as an ally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know a lot of people him meeting up with uncat, but he seems like he would see her as a corruption of his niece, not as an ally.

Blackfish doesn't have very many allies that he can afford to decline a helping hand from the Brotherhood without Banners. Granted he has allies in the Vale, but they are in the Vale, far away. He will need all the help he can get. With Freys getting hanged between the Riverlands and the Twins, Tom o' Sevens showing up at Riverrun, Blackfish escaping, Jeyne missing. It's just too many coincidences for Blackfish to not meet up with BwB somehow. That being said, since Jaime and Brienne will also be dealing with the BwB, a lot could screw up.

But I just don't see why Blackfish would be mad to see Stoneheart and declare her an abomination.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As it has been suggested, I believe the Blackfish is in Riverrun.

That is a place where he is not alone planning to continue his war of revenge.

We have Edmure's word on a Jaime's chapter to know that the Blackfish got away swimming downstream. Really, he's a middle aged man, not suited to a phisical feat as swimming unaided through an entire enemy sieging army, even at night. Everything is possible, but this is not the most likely thing.

If the assumption that he needs to protect a pregnant, fragile wife of Robb's is correct, he cannot move very far away, and going into hide there is at least as good as anywhere else. And Howland Reed was a friend of Ned's not a friend of Catelyn or the Tully. He was there when Eddard got Jon, whoever fathered him: Catelyn is not likely to speak about Howland Reed as a friend at the family reunions. And by the way, there were no family reunions for a generation. So, the Blackfish cannot be on Greywater's Watch. Could he bring Robb's wife to the Vale? The Blackfish is thick abut people, but he broke his ties with Lysa when he went away with Cat. Maybe he could get there to protect his last surviving landowning parent, Sweet Rob, who is not likely to fare well in Littlefinger's hands. But that would be a risk to Robb's queen: as far as the Blackfish knows, Littlefinger would send her to Cersei and be rewarded for it. The Blackfish doesn't know that Littlefinger couldn't do that while trying to manage Sansa into doing what he hopes. This seems to rule the Vale out. The Blackfish has not forgotten anything up there in the North, and it is a very long and dangerous voyage, in a land full of enemies. Not the safest place to bring his lost king's pregnant and phisically fragile wife. So the North is ruled out in my book. Much the same can be said about the road to Jon Connington's army, or Dorne, or the Summer Islands or anywhere else out of Westers. No interest in getting there, too many risk for Robb's wife to get there.

It seems to me that there is no place like home, for the Blackfish. And if in the whole Riverrun castle there is not a single secret passage to hide in, that is the only fortress in the whole continent not to have it. Bran was able to hide fro Theon, who spent most of his life in Winterfell even if his search parties were undermanned, and my beloved Jaime does not know Riverrun's interiors. And he is looking for the Blackfish downstream, with a lot of men in boats and horse parties. Resourceful search parties that couldn't find a wet, tired, colded middleaged man. They may have been looking in the wrong place. We already know that the Lannister were not very careful when they looked at Riverrun workers. Maybe they stupid, maybe they lacked reliable sources about who was an old servant and who was a Tully loyalist fighter, but there is at least another Lannister's enemy inside Riverrun.

My take: the Blackfish is in Riverrun, in accord with Edmure and in contact with the BWB. And Robb's wife is with him, maybe pregnant.

I vaguely remember, on the subject of this discussion, someone mentioning a SSM that established the difference in description was a mistake by Martin that wasn't corrected when they edited the book.

This subject is a real gamechanger, for my take on the Blackfish. I cling to the "vague references" due to the questions having to be spoiler free to believe it is a misunderstanding between the question maker and GRRM about that.

But still, even if Jeyne is not pregnant and she is in Lannister's hands, there is no reason for the Blackfish to leave the Riverlands. He is not going to anywhere out of Westeros, he's not going to Lysa or to Littlefinger, he's not going to jon Connington as a Beggar, he's not going alone to "save" Winterfell - where he would be in the same situation than in Riverrun, save not haing any friend there, and not knowing the places and the players. He still doesn't know Howland Reed who still isn't a friend of the Tully family, and that rules Greywater Watch away.

So we are struck to the same two choices: did he get through a sieging army swimming by night and then eluding intense search the following day or did he hide in a place he knows far better than his enemies, having friends near and a lot of contacts?

I still bet that, even without the need to protect Robb's wife, the Blackfish is in Riverrun. But this does not rule out his contacts with the BWB, or the other Tully vassals. Most of them didn't have even to formally kneel to King Tommen, just to give their word to the despised Kingslayer - who, if need be, can easily be argued to be a honorless man, to which it is not needed nor honorable to speak true.

This would lead to an interesting situation: what would the "honor of the north" supporters feel if the Tully regained their leading position in the Riverlands thanks to their vassals brake all of the promises made to have their life and possession spared by the winners of the battle in the field? Happy for the Lannister clan fall be caused by their mercy and faith in the oath taken, or betrayed for the followers of the King of the North being oathbrakers and opportunists equal to their despised southern enemies?

Just this dilemma would be a good reason for GRRM to leave the Blackfish in the Riverlands, if not in Riverrun proper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

I think he'll have gone to Greywater Watch: it's hard to get to, but not too far away, and once there, it would be impossible for him (and pregnant Jeyne?) to be found. Also, he probably knew that some of Robb's men were headed there anyway.

He may have headed North, so another possibility is Bear Island. Again, without money it would be very difficult for him to reach it, but it's safer than the rest of the North due to the lack of Boltons.

But, he may run into UnCat and the BWB in the Riverlands. That would be very interesting. We could see it through a Jaime or Brienne POV.

In the books Robb sent envoys to Greywater Watch prior to the red wedding. This seems like a logical place to hide and then seek revenge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no chance LF exposed Sansa's true identity to anyone other than Lysa (only because it was necessary). The BF is more of a threat to his plans than a benefit at this point. However that could change when Dany lands or if LF decides to support Aegon (likely if the Tyrell army is defeated). In such a case I can see LF bringing the BF into the fold.

Everyone in the vale knows that Alayne is Sansa. One of the LD actually told Lyn Corbray to back off because Alayne was 'gently born' and had 'been through much'

I'm sure LF is aware that everyone knows that Alayne is Sansa as well. That's probably one of his hole-cards, the vale has a lot of respect for Ned Stark and LF is running around with his only living progeny.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Brianna and Jaime will get word that Sansa is in the Vale and will rush to protect her from Cercei as for Blackfish I think he will meet up with Lady Stoneheart and Gendry. Gendry will explain how he met Arya and remembers that Arya may of gone to Bravos after finding out that her brother and mother were killd at the red wedding. I could see both Blackfish and Gendry hoping on a boat too Bravos and find Arya.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...