[TWoW, TMK Spoilers] Bran, Bloodraven, Theon & Dragons

[Ghost714]

I agree, noboby want to hear such bad things about family, but my point is when you not have personal memories, you can bear the truth with more objective look? (I'm not sure if that makes sense, english is not my native language) If you are intelligent person and you know that something really bad and important happen to your family what influenced your life, and you know that your family can be really crazy (even with the "bad traitors" in the background), I'm assuming you just want the whole truth, no matter how it would hurt.

I'm remember the end of ASOS, when Dany was thinking about amazing possibility to hear real story from Barristan - and I waited impatiently for this to happen in ADWD!

and in the whole ADWD she not found time for little chat with Barristan? despite the fact that she was so thrilled by the prospect? I get the feeling that Dany has this irritating attitude "I'm the blood of the dragon, daugther of the rightful king so whatever"; I'm not sure if she really cares about truth.

but, for reader's sake it's so much entertaining possibility to see Tyrion tells the whole story "I really don't care about your precious non-existing memories about your father" ;)

I completely understand what your saying, and you have a great point. I guess I just am willing to give Daenerys the benefit of the doubt. I think Dany still wants to learn the truth from Barristan , just like she did in ASOS, but in ADwD she had her hands really full. She was dealing with a lot of stuff that could really wear her down mentally. So that's why I don't think she could learn the truth about her father, because she already had enough bad stuff to think about. I'm not saying it doesn't make me angry that she didn't learn the truth yet, but I can also understand why she hasn't. I think Dany knows subconsciously that her father wasnt all that great. So Dany doesn't want to set down and listen to all that just yet, because she has enough bad things to think about trying to rule Meereen.

Also maybe GRRM has been waiting for Dany to learn the truth, so Dany could learn it from Tyrion. Maybe there is a specific reason GRRM wants Dany to not learn the full truth, until Tyrion can be the one to tell her?

[TheeMikeHoncho]

N+A=J does not have more concrete evidance than R+L=J, I'm sorry but N+A=J just isn't possible. Also you said you believe in N+A=J is very possible based on the evidence from Ser Barristan, the most honorable man in the entire realm. Its partly because of Ser Barristan and his honorable nature, why I believe N+A=J is impossible. Your basically putting a lot of stock in what Ser Barristan said about Ned and Ashara, yet the funny thing is, Ser Barristan said Ashara Dayne had a stillborn girl. So what do you make of that? How do you put so much credibility in what Ser Barristan said in ADwD, and then forget the part about Ashara's baby being a stillborn girl??? I mean you said it yourself that Ser Barristan is the most honorable man in the entire realm, why would he lie about it being a stillborn girl? Furthermore why would Ned lie about Jon's mother saying she was Wylla to Robert? When do you think Ned got Ashara pregnant? Because we know when Jon was born and the timeline doesn't add up.

It only makes since that Ned would lie to Catelyn and Robert, if Ned was trying to cover up R+L=J. None of it makes any sense with N+A=J.

What would be the point of Lightbringer if its just a glamored sword? If that was the case then Stannis would have Lightbringer. The only reason why you think Lightbringer will be Dawn the ancestral blade of the Dayne family, is because you believe that Jon is halo Dayne. There is absolutely nothing to support Dawn being Lightbringer. It is really only wishful thinking, if Lightbringer is just any old glamored Sword, then why not Longclaw?

And if Lightbringer is just a glamored sword, then it wouldn't radiate heat, so then that means it wouldnt actually be Lightbringer, and it would be just some glamored sword. I'm not even sure Lightbringer is an actual sword, but If it is, then it makes no since at all for it to be just a glamored sword.

I put stock in Barristan more than about everyone else, his life has been on built upon duty and honor. Just because you have a stillborn baby does not mean that you are infertile. R+L=J is built on justified speculation. Hope it is right R+L=J, but with Martin you never know. I am not trying to argue that your opinion is wrong. I am just speculating that N+A=J.

Go back and read in AFFC before Master Aemon and Sam take off, Aemon mentions to Sam that "Lightbringer" radiated no heat. Stannis' goal is not to be the one in the prophecy, but the King of the realm.

[Ghost714]

I put stock in Barristan more than about everyone else, his life has been on built upon duty and honor. Just because you have a stillborn baby does not mean that you are infertile. R+L=J is built on justified speculation. Hope it is right R+L=J, but with Martin you never know. I am not trying to argue that your opinion is wrong. I am just speculating that N+A=J.

Go back and read in AFFC before Master Aemon and Sam take off, Aemon mentions to Sam that "Lightbringer" radiated no heat. Stannis' goal is not to be the one in the prophecy, but the King of the realm.

It's impossible to fit the timeline, for Ashara to have another child after the stillborn one, and for that child to be Jon. This is all assuming what Barristan said is accurate, and I share the same view as you, I don't think of Barristan as the type of guy to get the facts wrong. Especially when those facts concerned someone Barristan really liked. In ADwD Barristan is still thinking "what if" when he thinks of Ashara, that to me shows he really cared for her. Barristan wonders had he won the tourny if Ashara would still be alive. One thing I think your forgetting despite the timeline, and that's the fact that Barristan said Ashara killed her self after the stillborn girl she had. So how does that fit into your theory that Ashara had another baby after the first one, when according to Barristan she killed herself after the first one?

Also do you think it was Ned who "also" fathered the first one?

Again despite the timeline, why do you think Ned allowed Catelyn to think Ned cheated on her, because you believe Ashara to be Jon's mother, and Ned was with Ashara way before he even knew he would marry Catelyn? Also if Ashara was Jon's mother, why all the lying? Why all the secrecy? None of it makes sence with N+A=J, but it all makes complete sence with R+L=J.

There is a reason why your one of the only people who still think N+A=J is possible, that reason being that everyone else has already thought about everything and realized its not possible.

Your brought up what Aemon said to Sam, and that is exactly my point. Aemon asked to see Stannis's sword "Lightbringer", and Aemon and Sam figured out that Stannis's sword doesn't put off any heat, it just puts of light.

Before Maester Aemon left the Wall, he told Jon that he had Clidas mark a page in a book, and Aemon told Jon he should read it. Later on in ADwD Jon recalls reading that page, and the book that Aemon had Jon read said that the first Lightbringer actually radiated heat. So that's how you know Stannis does not have the real Lightbringer. That's why it makes no sence for Lightbringer to be a glamored sword, because a glamor just makes it look like the sword is real. Without the heat, without the actual fire the real Lightbringer is suppose to have, it won't be that effective in fighting the Others(who hate fire, and the sun)

That's why it is about as useless as nipples on a breast plate, for Lightbringer to be just a glamored sword.

And there is absolutely nothing to suggest Lightbringer is Dawn.

And I'm not sure what your point is about Stannis's goal not being the one in the prophecy, but the King of the realm. What exactly do you mean by that? And Stannis does want to be the King of the realm, but he also believes that he is Azor Ahai.

[girlfrommonday]

But I like your theory that Bloodraven's sword and egg could be at the Wall. I kind of like the idea of Jon getting an ancestral Targaryen Valyrian Steel sword because of who Jon's father was (R+L=J), but at the same time Jon already has Longclaw. I would be kind of sad of Jon stopped using Longclaw because The old Bear gave Jon that sword. Maybe Jon can use both, one representing his Stark side(Longclaw), and one representing his Targaryen side(Dark Sister). Maybe Jon could wear Longclaw on his belt, and Dark Sister across his back, how bad ass are you if you have to Valyrian Steel Swords? Especially if one of those swords gets turned into Lightbringer? lol

I also like the idea of Jon founding Dark Sister [i have a big weakness for ancestral swords in the story ;)], but if this happen, maybe Dark Sister will be only sword in the hands of Jon? When Jon is 'dead', warging into Ghost, Melisandre taking his body [or whatever happens] maybe no one will take care of Longclaw for Jon and somebody will take this sword? especially, when everybody thinks Jon is dead?

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

I also like the idea of Jon founding Dark Sister [i have a big weakness for ancestral swords in the story ;)], but if this happen, maybe Dark Sister will be only sword in the hands of Jon? When Jon is 'dead', warging into Ghost, Melisandre taking his body [or whatever happens] maybe no one will take care of Longclaw for Jon and somebody will take this sword? especially, when everybody thinks Jon is dead?

true, long claw could get misplaced in the chaos, and then, when he is in need of a sword, boom, ancient valyrian sword for him

[ZeDisDeaD]

i like to think there is a ice dragon inside the Wall. fully formed, not a hatchling. but i know it is not likely because when Bran the Builder built the Wall, there was no dragon around in Westeros.

and i dont think Bran will just warg into dragon if he is actually one of three heads. i think he'll mount it(try atleast). all that pages about "flying" couldn't be about warging into some crow or eagle. there must be something more i guess.

one last thing; i am almost sure that Horn of Joramun is in Sam's hands. i know this is obvious but after searching through this forum, i couldn't find any threads about that. now i'm thinking maybe i missed something.

everyone agrees that, what Jon found in The Fist of the First Men was Horn of Joramun, right?

[darkwing duck]

I agree about Sam having the Horn of Joramun, I convinced my bf of that too :) About the Aor Ahai prophecy, I don't think the 2nd prophecy about Azor Ahai re-born specifically says anything about having a sword. It just says Azor Ahai 'is come again to wake the dragons from stone.' Nothing about a flaming sword. I think the wording on that is very specific for a reason, and that reason being that the waking of dragons from stone takes the place of Lightbringer.

[Prince of the North]

The theory that I currently subscribe to is that the dragons are Lightbringer this time around. Also, I don't think there is a single AAR this time around but three people who will help to fill that role. The Dragon has three heads after all ;)

[WightWolf]

could the waking of dragons from stone be some gargoyle/statue creation? these could be the 'false' dragons hinted at in the prophesy. im not thinking there are dragons in the wall. if that were to happen, back when the wall was built, i think that it would be some kind of legend, or documented well enough in the nwatch's records (but maybe sam just didn't get to it yet, but aegon would have known).

there is a lot of talk of the dragon sigil having three heads and the symbolism surrounding it. does the three heads have a meaining? at least back when there were many dragons? or perhaps after, with the mad king?

anyway, i also throw support behind the theory that rhagar and lyanna are jon's parents. ned the secret keeper because robert would freak out if he new about the kid. ned the nephew protector. benjen may know, whenever he turns up.

so i don't think there will be ice dragons. i think that "ice vs fire" is going to be the others/wights vs the realm after the targarians gain favor and followers, in which they will gain the throne. winter is coming right? the others will bring the cold with them and invade, massing wight troops. and there will be the battle of battles. im also guessing that the 3 dragon heads do have meaning. your three dragon riders are dany to drogon, jon to rhaegal (for his pops) and aegon to viserion. heads will roll.

i don't like it when the weather is too cold, i don't like it when the weather is too hot. its gonna be a mix.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

ultimately, i think the dragons are going to have to be the ones to defeat the others. (or Bran). I am excited to see how many Others there actually are. from the scenes north of the wall with the reeds and bran they seem to be rising out of the snow by the dozens. Think the wall will hold 100,000 Others..?

[Ghost714]

ultimately, i think the dragons are going to have to be the ones to defeat the others. (or Bran). I am excited to see how many Others there actually are. from the scenes north of the wall with the reeds and bran they seem to be rising out of the snow by the dozens. Think the wall will hold 100,000 Others..?

What Bran, Hodor and the Reeds encountered were not the Others, they were Wights. Wights are reanimated corpses(people and animals).

Here is a discription of the "The Others", or "The White Walkers" from the aSoIaF Wiki page...

" tall and gaunt with flesh pale as milk and blue eyes, deeper and bluer than human eyes, burning like ice, while the White Walker who married the Night's King is similarly described as having skin as pale as the moon and eyes like blue stars. They wear reflective armor that shifts in color with every step rather like the stealth armor once said to have been worn by the Children of the Forest. They appear to be superior swordsmen, wielding thin crystal swords that said so cold as to shatter any object they touch, including the steel blades favoured by the Night's Watch.[1] Their language is unknown, although it may be the Old Tongue, when one spoke in the prologue his voice was said to sound like the cracking of ice, but this was probably a figure of speech. The Free Folk believe the Others and their Wights can smell life, or rather its warmth."

I don't think there are that many Others, based on how few we have seen in the books. It seems to me that there are thousands upon thousands of Wights, so there probably won't be as many Others. However I could be very wrong, but considering the Others can turn man and beast into Wights, there won't need to be that many Others.

As to your question of, can the Wall hold against 100,000 Wights, I think it can. The Wall can hold back any number of enemies, the question is, will there we enough men to hold the Wall. As long as the Wall is fully manned, I think they can beat the Others back. It will be hard, very hard, but I think it can be done. That is, as long as the Wall is fully manned when the Others and Wights make their full on attack.

Most people think that the Wall will have to fall, in order for the Others to be a real threat. Most people think the fight against the Others won't matter unless the Wall falls, and they think that The Others will have to fully invade Westeros, or what's the point? I don't believe that the Wall has to fall for the Others to be a Threat. Mance Rayder was still a threat, when there was still a Wall. It will still be amazing reading if the Wall doesn't fall, that's not to say the Others can't breach the Wall in places, or that's not to say some of them wont make it over the Wall. In ADwD Cotter Pyke wrote a letter to Jon saying "dead things in the woods, dead things in the Water". So some Wights can probably swim around the Wall.

All of that is why I don't believe the Wall will actually have to fall for the Others to be a real threat to Westeros.

Saying the entire Wall must fall for the Others to be a real threat to Westeros, that to me is like saying all the walls of Storm's End must fall for an army to be a real threat to the people inside the castle.

Again that's why I don't think the Wall will actually fall, it's still going to be an amazing fight between man and The Others.

[ZeDisDeaD]

Saying the entire Wall must fall for the Others to be a real threat to Westeros, that to me is like saying all the walls of Storm's End must fall for an army to be a real threat to the people inside the castle.

The Wall must fall if there will be any Others invasion, because spells are woven into the wall to keep certain entities such as Others, from passing. For Mance Ryder, these spells meant nothing because wildlings are human beings.

Think about Storm's End for example. Melissandre needed Davos to get her inside the walls of Storm's End, because there is ancient spells woven on that walls. According to myth, Bran the Builder was the one who helped building Storm's End.

That makes perfect sense for the wall to be enchanted with these spells and others will need to destroy it in order to go further south.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Saying the entire Wall must fall for the Others to be a real threat to Westeros, that to me is like saying all the walls of Storm's End must fall for an army to be a real threat to the people inside the castle.

Again that's why I don't think the Wall will actually fall, it's still going to be an amazing fight between man and The Others.

I agree with you 100%. I do not believe the Wall will fall. The Others will be stopped beyond the Wall with Dany's dragons & Jon Snow involved. This storyline may even conclude in TWoW.

I still believe this series is more about the game of thrones than supernatural fantasy stuff. The fantasy stuff in the background adds some cool flavor and atmosphere, but the game of thrones is much more interesting to read about.

In the end the supernatural threat will be defeated, then quickly forgotten by men as they go back to their eternal power struggles.

[Ghost714]

The Wall must fall if there will be any Others invasion, because spells are woven into the wall to keep certain entities such as Others, from passing. For Mance Ryder, these spells meant nothing because wildlings are human beings.

Think about Storm's End for example. Melissandre needed Davos to get her inside the walls of Storm's End, because there is ancient spells woven on that walls. According to myth, Bran the Builder was the one who helped building Storm's End.

That makes perfect sense for the wall to be enchanted with these spells and others will need to destroy it in order to go further south.

Thank you for putting that into perspective for me. So the Others won't be going through the Wall because of the magic within the Wall, but does that also mean the Others can't go over the Wall? Or if not the Others, can the Wights climb over the Wall? I am thinking of Jon's dream when he is fighting by himself on top of the Wall, against all manner of dead things. Was that a dream with meaning, or just a dream? Could that dream mean Wights can climb over the Wall?

Cotter Pyke sent a letter to Jon from Hardhome, saying send help by land, dead things in the wood, dead things in the water(something like that). So could that mean that the Wights can swim around the Wall at Eastwatch-by-the-sea?

If the Wights can go over the Wall, and around it, then I still don't see a need for the entire Wall having to fall. I think something will happen to wear there might be a threat of the Wall falling. The Watch/Wildlings/Northmen will have to fight to hold the Wall long enough for Dany and her Dragons. Or I could see Jon leading an attack north of the Wall, in order to stop the Others/Wights from getting to the Wall. The reason being, if the Others get to the Wall, then they could possibly bring it down.

I dont know really whats going to happen, I just don't think the whole Wall will fall.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

It's impossible to fit the timeline, for Ashara to have another child after the stillborn one, and for that child to be Jon. This is all assuming what Barristan said is accurate, and I share the same view as you, I don't think of Barristan as the type of guy to get the facts wrong. Especially when those facts concerned someone Barristan really liked. In ADwD Barristan is still thinking "what if" when he thinks of Ashara, that to me shows he really cared for her. Barristan wonders had he won the tourny if Ashara would still be alive. One thing I think your forgetting despite the timeline, and that's the fact that Barristan said Ashara killed her self after the stillborn girl she had. So how does that fit into your theory that Ashara had another baby after the first one, when according to Barristan she killed herself after the first one?

Also do you think it was Ned who "also" fathered the first one?

Again despite the timeline, why do you think Ned allowed Catelyn to think Ned cheated on her, because you believe Ashara to be Jon's mother, and Ned was with Ashara way before he even knew he would marry Catelyn? Also if Ashara was Jon's mother, why all the lying? Why all the secrecy? None of it makes sence with N+A=J, but it all makes complete sence with R+L=J.

There is a reason why your one of the only people who still think N+A=J is possible, that reason being that everyone else has already thought about everything and realized its not possible.

Your brought up what Aemon said to Sam, and that is exactly my point. Aemon asked to see Stannis's sword "Lightbringer", and Aemon and Sam figured out that Stannis's sword doesn't put off any heat, it just puts of light.

Before Maester Aemon left the Wall, he told Jon that he had Clidas mark a page in a book, and Aemon told Jon he should read it. Later on in ADwD Jon recalls reading that page, and the book that Aemon had Jon read said that the first Lightbringer actually radiated heat. So that's how you know Stannis does not have the real Lightbringer. That's why it makes no sence for Lightbringer to be a glamored sword, because a glamor just makes it look like the sword is real. Without the heat, without the actual fire the real Lightbringer is suppose to have, it won't be that effective in fighting the Others(who hate fire, and the sun)

That's why it is about as useless as nipples on a breast plate, for Lightbringer to be just a glamored sword.

And there is absolutely nothing to suggest Lightbringer is Dawn.

And I'm not sure what your point is about Stannis's goal not being the one in the prophecy, but the King of the realm. What exactly do you mean by that? And Stannis does want to be the King of the realm, but he also believes that he is Azor Ahai.

Your points are all well received and I agree with you on most. Your points about the child are good, but this is westeros. How do we know that the baby died? I know it is farfetched but in the westeros all things must be considered.

Maybe i am not that smart, which is entirely possible, but you have two different stances on stannis and lightbringer. Your first response is that Lightbringer is not a glamored sword and made no sense for it to be, yet in your second respose you said it was not the real Lightbringer. Pick your poison brother! I

think that it is not farfetched enough to see that Stannis would use any means possible, including assassinating his own brother, to become King. Mel was the one who told Stannis he was the Azor Ahai. That seems to be a convenient thing to be, especially if one wants to be King. His movement to the wall was really the only strategic option that he had.

The only thing that suggests that Lightbringer of the legend is Dawn, is the fact that the two swords are identical. Both glow radiant light and burn. Magic swords are not that common in Westeros. That is why i came to the conclusion.

[Ghost714]

Your points are all well received and I agree with you on most. Your points about the child are good, but this is westeros. How do we know that the baby died? I know it is farfetched but in the westeros all things must be considered.

Maybe i am not that smart, which is entirely possible, but you have two different stances on stannis and lightbringer. Your first response is that Lightbringer is not a glamored sword and made no sense for it to be, yet in your second respose you said it was not the real Lightbringer. Pick your poison brother! I

think that it is not farfetched enough to see that Stannis would use any means possible, including assassinating his own brother, to become King. Mel was the one who told Stannis he was the Azor Ahai. That seems to be a convenient thing to be, especially if one wants to be King. His movement to the wall was really the only strategic option that he had.

The only thing that suggests that Lightbringer of the legend is Dawn, is the fact that the two swords are identical. Both glow radiant light and burn. Magic swords are not that common in Westeros. That is why i came to the conclusion.

Okay again with your N+A=J theory, first you said that you are going off of the information we get from Barristan in ADwD. You said Ser Barristan is the most honorable person in the story etc etc, and I agree, and that's why you were trusting his information for your theory. Yet now when I brought up the fact that Barristan thinks about Ashara having a still borne baby girl, you then change sides. You said "How do we know that the baby died", and I agree, but before you were basing your theory on Barristan being a reliable source of information, but now your saying "how do we know the baby died", so I guess your doubting Barristan's credibility after all, now that it no longer fits with your theory.

So who needs to "pick their poison" my friend?

Now back to Lightbringer, and for the record I never contradicted myself. When you first said that Lightbringer is going to be a glamored sword, I immediately said that it makes no sense at all for Lightbringer to be a glamored Sword. I said if Lightbringer could be just any old glamored sword, then Stannis would have "Lightbringer", because the sword Stannis has is just a glamored sword, that was glamored to look like Lightbringer, but that doesn't mean it is Lightbringer. I then reffered to proof pointed out by Maester Aemon, that the original Lightbringer not only radiated light, but heat also, and that's why we know that Stannis doesn't have the new real Lightbringer. Again because there is nothing special about the sword Stannis has, it is just a glamor. So this whole time I have been saying it makes no sense at all that Lightbringer would be just a glamored sword. A glamored sword just looks special, but there is nothing special about it, if it doesn't put of heat, then it won't be any better than any other sword, when fighting against the Others/Wights. So I never said that Tge sword Stannis has is Lightbringer. Again I was just saying that if Lightbringer can be any glamored Sword, then why would Stannis's be fake, and we know Stannis's is a fake, because of what Aemon had Jon read in that book.

If you go back and reread my posts, I assure you that this is what I have been saying this whole time, this whole time I have been arguing against your theory that Lightbringer will be just some glamored sword.

Now about Dawn, the Sword of the Morning, I am sorry to burst your bubble, but you are wrong about the comparison between Dawn and Lightbringer.

You said that you came to the conclusion that Dawn was Lightbringer, because "Both glow radiant light and burn." I apologize, but that is completely made up in your head, and not true at all.

If you look up Dawn in the A Song of Ice and Fire Wiki page, it gives a discription of Dawn.

Here is that discription...."Dawn is the ancestral greatsword of House Dayne. It is said to be made from metal forged from the heart of a fallen star.[1] Its blade is as pale as milkglass.[2

It doesn't say anywhere that Dawn glows or that Dawn radiates light or heat. It just says that Dawn is as pale as milkglass, which does not match the discription of Lightbringer. Maybe you got the discription of Dawn wrong because it could easily be subconsciously associated with Azor Ahai and the battle for the Dawn?

This is why I have been saying that there is absolutely nothing that suggests Dawn will be Lightbringer, and why that is only wishful thinking.

Here is a link to that Wiki page about Dawn, if you want to check it for yourself.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dawn

[The Blood Eyed Crow]

I agree with what many of you are saying: that the Others do not necessarily need the Wall to fall in order for their powers to be utilized across the Wall or for them to invade Westeros. If you look at the map provided in the hardcover addition of A Dance With Dragons you'll notice that the island of Skagos is partially in the territory of the Wall and partially beyond the Wall. With the knowledge we were left with at the ending of ADWD we know that Cotter Pyke is seeing dead things in the water. My assumption is that the power of the Wall literally ends at the Wall, so once the Wall reaches the sea everyone is S*** out of luck. I don't imagine Bran the Builder had any way of preventing the Others from swimming on dead sea creatures to reach Westeros or any way of charming the water. If the Others can come by sea they can literally find go anywhere. Skagos is supposedly where Rickon and Osha are. Is it possible our first true perspective and clear vision of the Others will come from Osha and Rickon or Davos Seaworth as he tries to find them? Perhaps Rickon is the one we need to worry about as becoming a key figure in the world of the Others instead of Bran who many believe is their leader in the making. Just a thought.

[The Blood Eyed Crow]

My two cents about Jon's parentage aren't worth more than two cents, but here they are anyway. It is possible Ashara's baby lived and that child was Jon (GRRM is known for twisting around our expectations at the last minute), but why would Ned have brought Jon back to Winterfell and not left him with Ashara's people, especially after her suicide. They would've wanted her child I assume. Typically, the "bastard" children of Westeros stay with their mothers. Ned is a man of honor and I believe he would've been more compelled to leave the child with his mother or her family instead of bring shame to his new wife and her house. That is unless there was no other place for a baby Jon to go or his life was in danger. It is my belief that Ned went to great lengths to cover up Jon's true parentage to save his life as part Targaryean. He spread a lie from one end of the country to the other, so no doubt would come upon Jon as to who his father and mother really were. He also never revealed to Catelyn Jon's true parentage. If it was indeed Ashara who is dead and holds far less controversy than L+R, wouldn't he have told her? Also, Lightbringer isn't a passed down sword, but a sword forged by the owner. If the Dayne's had possession of a magical sword wouldn't they have been quite the challenge to the Targaryeans? I imagine Lightbringer's power is connected to its owner Azor and Azor to Lightbringer. Once the first Azor died, Lightbringer died with him.

[Ghost714]

My two cents about Jon's parentage aren't worth more than two cents, but here they are anyway. It is possible Ashara's baby lived and that child was Jon (GRRM is known for twisting around our expectations at the last minute), but why would Ned have brought Jon back to Winterfell and not left him with Ashara's people, especially after her suicide. They would've wanted her child I assume. Typically, the "bastard" children of Westeros stay with their mothers. Ned is a man of honor and I believe he would've been more compelled to leave the child with his mother or her family instead of bring shame to his new wife and her house. That is unless there was no other place for a baby Jon to go or his life was in danger. It is my belief that Ned went to great lengths to cover up Jon's true parentage to save his life as part Targaryean. He spread a lie from one end of the country to the other, so no doubt would come upon Jon as to who his father and mother really were. He also never revealed to Catelyn Jon's true parentage. If it was indeed Ashara who is dead and holds far less controversy than L+R, wouldn't he have told her? Also, Lightbringer isn't a passed down sword, but a sword forged by the owner. If the Dayne's had possession of a magical sword wouldn't they have been quite the challenge to the Targaryeans? I imagine Lightbringer's power is connected to its owner Azor and Azor to Lightbringer. Once the first Azor died, Lightbringer died with him.

I imagine something similar to your previous post, about the Others going around the Wall by sea. That's an intersting thought about Davos, Rickon, and Osha being out first POV, when dealing with the Others/Wights in the water.

However I disagree with you, about Ashara Dayne possibly being Jon's mother. It just isn't even a possibility.

You said that maybe Ned took Jon and created this huge lie to keep Jon safe, because if Jon's mother was Ashara, then Jon would be part Targaryen. Yes the Dayne's have some Targaryen blood in them, but so do a handful of other houses, The Martell's, the Baratheon's etc.

It makes no sense for Jon's life to be in danger just because he has Targaryen blood, through his mother Ashara, hypothetically speaking, because there are other Dayne's with more Targaryen blood than Jon would have, and they were not in any danger from Robert because of it. I am thinking of Ned Dayne, or Darkstar, why would they have not been in danger also?

So when you factor in the fact that Robert had nothing against the Dayne's, then there is no reason for Ned to hide Jon, or to lie to Robert about Jon's mother. There Is definitely no reason to lie to Catelyn? Why would Ned even say he cheated on her? When the truth was Ned was with Ashara way before he even knew he would marry Catelyn.

Then there is the timeline, which is the biggest thing that makes it impossible for Ashara to be Jon's mother.

The lies, the secrets, all of it, when you really actually consider everything, and I mean everything, none of it makes any sense if Ashara is Jon's mother, and it's just not possible for Ashara to be Jon's mother. Yet everything makes sense if R+L=J is true, and I believe without a doubt that it is.

I do agree with you about Lightbringer though.

[AlexKerscher]

What Bran, Hodor and the Reeds encountered were not the Others, they were Wights. Wights are reanimated corpses(people and animals).

Here is a discription of the "The Others", or "The White Walkers" from the aSoIaF Wiki page...

" tall and gaunt with flesh pale as milk and blue eyes, deeper and bluer than human eyes, burning like ice, while the White Walker who married the Night's King is similarly described as having skin as pale as the moon and eyes like blue stars. They wear reflective armor that shifts in color with every step rather like the stealth armor once said to have been worn by the Children of the Forest. They appear to be superior swordsmen, wielding thin crystal swords that said so cold as to shatter any object they touch, including the steel blades favoured by the Night's Watch.[1] Their language is unknown, although it may be the Old Tongue, when one spoke in the prologue his voice was said to sound like the cracking of ice, but this was probably a figure of speech. The Free Folk believe the Others and their Wights can smell life, or rather its warmth."

Am i the only person that after reading their description automatically think "Aliens. With lightsabers".

I mean, a sword transparent as crystal that shatters things could pretty much be something lightsaberish seen by a more primitive mind. I know its total crackpot but I just can't help to think about it. GRRM used to write sci fi after all.