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Catelyn Stark is a female Dolorous Edd


Planetary

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I kid, I kid. Well, not entirely.

I'm one of those newbies who jumped into the books after watching S1 on HBO, and I was genuinely surprised that HBO actually toned down Catelyn Stark's hatred of Jon Snow. All the same, I thought there was no way her character could possibly be more dour than she was in the series. I was wrong on that count too.

* Potential Spoilers up to Book 3 *

1) Every time the story changes to Catelyn's PoV, it's a misery-fest. And not in a post-capture Jaime sort of way, or even a Samwell despair kind of way. Just abject misery from the PoV of a character who obsesses over perceived slights, imagined problems or the behavior of the always-dissapointing people around her.

2) Catelyn Stark reminds me of a great-aunt, who loved to tell stories, knew everything about the family and was an unofficial local historian. Like my great-aunt, Catelyn Stark's stories are always filled with long-dead people no one knows or wants to hear about. Unlike my aunt, the majority of the stories are petty or miserable.

3) Balon Greyjoy dead? No time to celebrate, let's bring up four dozen other reasons to be miserable. Robb re-sealing the alliance with the Freys? Not to worry, Catelyn's PoV will focus on how much the rain sucks. Her son wins a significant battle? Let's not get our hopes up, it's right back to the misery! Damn. No wonder Robb Stark tried to get rid of her several times. I'd fall on my sword if she was my mother.

4) The "smallfolk." There are a couple of scenes where she's actually annoyed by the fact that they're cheering her. There are several passages where she looks on the commoners with disdain. And when her brother takes in his "smallfolk" behind the walls of Riverrun, she immediately thinks to chide him for it. Mouths to feed and so on. Uh, WTF? Isn't the whole notion of banners, liege lords and keeps centered around the fact that the lord provides protection for the peasants in times of danger? Why would they fight for a lord if he shuts his keep and leaves 'em out to be slaughtered?

I know this is the PoV of a woman who has lost a lot, but damn. I also know that George R.R. Martin is a master of characterization, and well aware of how to gain reader sympathies for a character. The surest way is to write a likable character, make them suffer through a long parade of crappy things and get the reader invested and on their side. But failing that, at least make them relatable. But Catelyn Stark's character reminds me of the main cast in Alastair Reynolds' "Revelation Space," where every PoV character is so revolting, obnoxious, selfish and absurd that it's impossible to relate to any of them.

Of course, maybe this is all a build-up, and maybe there's some big payoff on the back end of Storm of Swords (which I'm about 70% through) or in future books. But right now, I'd have to say Catelyn Stark is by far my least-favorite character in the series, and I'm tempted to skip the chapter every time I turn the page and see "CATELYN."

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LOL your posts make me laugh, very nicely written!

Catelyn is a woman that (in my opinion) is slowly going insane and is so overcome with grief that her descisions are not rational. Robb is right to try and put her away somewhere safe but then she will have lost yet another child and I really think that she would crack completely with another loss....

Yes, her treatment of Jon is just spiteful but I do cut her some slack, the man she ad just married goes off to fight a war. She gives birth to his 'first born' son while he is away and then when he returns he presents her with a bastard and insists the child should be raised in his house-hold. I know, it's not Jon's fault but I can sort of understand her upset there!

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She's my favorite character, and I think she's one of the most relatable characters in the novels, since very few of us are master swordsmen, terrifyingly brilliant dwarves, precocious murderous kids, etc. She's certainly the most realistically depicted character, I think. Is she depressed? Yes, she is. Her life is one tragedy after another, and she's often Cassandra, seeing it coming but no one listens to her. It's enough to drive a person mad.

Though, that said, I don't believe she is in fact going insane over the course of the novels. The only time she isn't rational is the period after Bran's fall to her surviving the attack by the footpad. Otherwise, she's very clear-eyed about what she needs to be doing to save her family.

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I am not going to defend Catelyn here since there are a million threads about that already.

But I have to ask - what's wrong with liking reading well written scenes of tragedy and depression? Especially when it's clear that the author is really good at that, as Martin definitely is. Catelyn chapters has some of the very best examples of this - really powerful and moving scenes. Is Catelyn depressed and dour most of the time (but not always by any means)? Of course she is, but in a believable and well shown way. It's not like she went into depression over something minor, she's had a string of major tragedies to deal with. Was martin supposed to make her shrug off all those griveous losses she suffered in a short period of time?

And for the record, I find her totally relatable as a character, much more than the chosen saviours,the super badasses or the "cool" characters whose every second line is a carefully crafted witticism, which make up the majority of PoV characters.

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Oh no this thread again.

This fandom is fantastic, while its ok to murder, rape, comitt incest, you jus cant treat your husand's bastard badly, what a terrible person you are for that!!!

Pretty sure my post said nothing about rape, incest or murder, let alone condoned any of it. That's a straw man argument.

SPOILERS for Storm of Swords:

Just read the chapters dealing with the wedding at the Twins. Catelyn's PoV is typically miserable: The music is bad, the singing is bad, the feast is "niggardly," the wine sucks, she's disappointed with the dude to the left of her who is drinking too much wine, she's disappointed with the dude to the right of her who is drinking too much wine, her brother Edmure is a dumbass for being so elated over his new bride's looks, speaking of his new bride she doesn't have child-bearing hips or big huge nursing breasts...and on, and on, and on.

That's not relatable. That's awful. It got to the point where I thought, "Fantastic, no more Catelyn PoV chapters" when they killed her off, even though I didn't want to see the deaths of Robb, the Greatjon, and so on.

I'm also going to throw this out there, and I'm sure it won't be popular, but...Martin is not particularly good at writing "scenes of tragedy and depression." I give him huge props for his mastery of characterization (for the most part) and plot, but like almost every novelist he has deficiencies. The good far outweighs the bad, which is why I'm still reading.

And lastly, I think my opinion is at least partially shaded by Michelle Fairley's portrayal of Catelyn, which was dour even before the Starks started dropping like flies. Part of that has to do with the actress, and part of it has to do with HBO's decision to rewrite Catelyn's early scenes so she's against Ned's appointment as Hand, whereas in the books she's much more supportive.

Ah well. What I should have noted in my first post is...at least Dolorous Edd is hilarious.

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Pretty sure my post said nothing about rape, incest or murder, let alone condoned any of it. That's a straw man argument.

SPOILERS for Storm of Swords:

Just read the chapters dealing with the wedding at the Twins. Catelyn's PoV is typically miserable: The music is bad, the singing is bad, the feast is "niggardly," the wine sucks, she's disappointed with the dude to the left of her who is drinking too much wine, she's disappointed with the dude to the right of her who is drinking too much wine, her brother Edmure is a dumbass for being so elated over his new bride's looks, speaking of his new bride she doesn't have child-bearing hips or big huge nursing breasts...and on, and on, and on.

That's not relatable. That's awful. It got to the point where I thought, "Fantastic, no more Catelyn PoV chapters" when they killed her off, even though I didn't want to see the deaths of Robb, the Greatjon, and so on.

I'm also going to throw this out there, and I'm sure it won't be popular, but...Martin is not particularly good at writing "scenes of tragedy and depression." I give him huge props for his mastery of characterization (for the most part) and plot, but like almost every novelist he has deficiencies. The good far outweighs the bad, which is why I'm still reading.

And lastly, I think my opinion is at least partially shaded by Michelle Fairley's portrayal of Catelyn, which was dour even before the Starks started dropping like flies. Part of that has to do with the actress, and part of it has to do with HBO's decision to rewrite Catelyn's early scenes so she's against Ned's appointment as Hand, whereas in the books she's much more supportive.

Ah well. What I should have noted in my first post is...at least Dolorous Edd is hilarious.

I did said fandom not just you, text comprehension is required.

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You wrote, "Oh no, this thread again!" and described it as "this fandom." Your words. My reading comprehension is fine, thanks. Ease off on the straw men.

Oh my, do i have to drawn it for you?

When i said this fandom i wasn't talking about your personal view of the character, but the most common bullshit thats trown against Cat in this forums, about the kind of accusations there are about to be trown against Cat in this thread in the near future, and i know this by my past experience in other Cat threads similar to yours.

Text comprehension is, indeed, required.

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I see the point on both sides. I mean yeah she can be kind of a drag but who isn't annoyed by a bad party foul? She's still remarkably strong through all she has to deal with and she's very loyal to her family. I like her and I feel like she's entitled to have a few cases of the Mondays ... everyday...

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Sure but she's nowhere near as funny as Edd.

Even if these are my least favorite chapters, I can't begrudge her feeling this way, considering how many family members she has lost or thinks to have lost.

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Of course, maybe this is all a build-up, and maybe there's some big payoff on the back end of Storm of Swords (which I'm about 70% through) or in future books.

I understand the temptation but don't skip her chapters. I used to and I missed out on interesting plot points and on a certain major event in ASoS. Also, not sure how spoilered you are... there is a big Catelyn payoff but I'm not sure how you will like it.

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I actually found that HBO's switch to make her opposed to Ned becoming the Hand should have made her more likeable..her urging of Ned to head to King's Landing in the book always struck me as annoying, especially when he clearly didn't want to go and felt that his place was in the North. It should have, but it didn't (at least for me). It felt grasping to me, all the "think what it'll mean for the children, our family" bit..I get it, I really do...but I felt like she was thrusting Ned into a dangerous political situation that he was ill-equipped to handle.

I do relate to Catelyn and I do have sympathy for her, but I just don't think she's very likeable. In the books or in the HBO series.

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I know her chapters are depressing, but GRRM wrote her character beautifully. I like how proud and determined she is, but she gives way to honor and respect for Ned and Robb when the situation calls for it (even if begrudgingly). Though it was incredibly stupid of her to send Jaime back to KL, I totally related to how she felt. She had lost her husband and two of her children (not actually true, but that's what she thought), and Robb was becoming his own man, thinking for himself. She only wanted to see her girls again, hold them close, and be safe somewhere far from war. I can imagine that many people (men and women) feel this way during times of strife and war, and if we had a chance, however small, to do whatever it took to get a family member back, we would take it. That's why I think Catelyn is a great character.

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She is my least favorite character, and her chapter really are depressing, I admit, but a little bit of understanding here she lost her husband, her son was crippled, her daughters were being hostages for the family that beheaded her husband, and her teenager fist-born was in a war, so I think she has a reason to be falling apart. And she is after all one of the most human characters in the book, not many people can be a witted dwarf, or a young assassin, or be a princess who give birth to dragons. And I wouldn't skip her chapters if I were you, there's important events to come that are in her chapter

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Oh, the love for Cat we see in these forums is unique.

:lol:

Yeah, it's pretty tough for a lot of the oldtimers, though. Many here have been defending her character for 10+ years. I figured it was my turn to take up the staff. (And she's not even near my "favorite".)

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