Dany's visions in House of the Undying

[rmholt]

It certainly seems that GRRM wants us to associate Stannis with this prophecy. And casting no shadow can mean, seen in false light.

I like this wording.

Mel says there cannot be shadows without light so shadows are good. Maybe it is Stannis, a false king, since he casts no shadow and therefore is not real or not part of the "good"

[rmholt]

Stannis would not necessarily have to die as a result of a "lie" being slain. It could possibly just mean that the slayer of the lie being presented as the true AA would override alternative claims, thus causing the Stannis = AA thesis to fade away.

.

Ah. this makes me think Slayer of Lies means she will get rid of all the false kings and queens! Thanks!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I'm curious about the rat faced men, perhaps a reference to Gregor Clegane's men?

The cloth dragon, I take to mean that the now living Aegon may indeed be a false dragon, as Stannis, the other 'false dragon' is not one to be cheered.

The blue flower in the Wall of Ice seems to be another arrow at Jon Snow being a Targ.

I think that the rat faced men are the 4 alive claimants of the throne.

Aegon being a Blackfyre is the cloth dragon. But Stannis is not a false dragon, he never said that he was a dragon after all.

The blue flower in the Wall of Ice is Jon.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Daario was pitched over the wall via trebchet, wasnt he?

Those were diseased corpses, to infect the city

[rmholt]

Those were diseased corpses, to infect the city

Really? I am pretty sure they are the remaining hostages. I'd put $0.25 on it.

[Saltwater]

Hello all :)

I'm new here and wanted to add my humble two cents ;)

English is not my first language, so I hope you might forgive some misspelling.

I do think the slayer of lies, which is in german strangely translated as death of lies, is actually about lies she's been told.

11) a blue-eyed king with a red sword in his hand who cast no shadow;

I think that's just Azor Ahai. The Red priests will most likely reach her and tell her that it is her, but I believe that to be untrue.

12) a cloth dragon amidst a cheering crowd;

I think that is her. I know many believe it to be Aegon. But why would she believe to be someone else to be a dragon? And secondly, isn't Barristan telling her that Westeros is waiting for her, secretly knitting dragon banners? So he is kinda saying, there is a cheering crowd waiting to parade her through the streets, which is a lie....

13) a great stone beast flying from a smoking tower, breathing shadow fire;

This is getting a little crackpot, so please excuse ;)

Normally castles have things called pitchnoses. They sometimes look like gargoyles, with their claws holding to the wall, pretty wide reaching out forward, some have even wings. They actually do look like about to take flight. They were used for throughing down boiling oil, which came out their mouths. Of corse that oil was no salad oil, that was far too expensive ;) They used tar/pitch mixed with animal fat, so it was black. Fits with shadow fire.

So where is the lie?

It might be that in one of the next books they might expect safety, when a Loras Tyrell might just pop up unexpected in their back.

And all those lies, if not "slayn" before could proof pretty awkward/dangerous to her.

And for those 4 Visions.

1. The house with the red door and Derry, she can confirm herself to be true/the real past.

2. Aerys and the king over ashes

3. I don't think it is the full RW with it's meaning, I think it is just a "still image" of the head-swapping incident.

4. Aegon being TPTWP

At first look they make no sense. But I think it will have to do with Tyrion.

He will be the one telling her about Aegon and might add he is fake. He might even fill her in about Westeros "news" and mention the RW and the head-swapping, a bizarre image hard to miss! And as Jaime's brother he most likely can also validate the truth over the Aerys scene. So I believe there is the lie about Aegon hidden under 3 true visions, and it might happen she will think them all to be true.... it would also fit with slaying the first lie, with saying it is him and not her, just to be wrong about it again.

[Lord Gautham Girishankar]

My Take

1) a scene where four men with rat faces are raping a beautiful woman;

To take place, I believe this is going to be Margaery or Cersei's end, I hope its not Sansa's

2) a feast of corpses, where many of the bodies were savagely slaughtered, and many of the corpses have cups or spoons in their hands; above them sits a dead man on a throne with the head of a wolf, wearing an iron crown and holding a leg of lamb like a king would hold a scepter;

Red Wedding

4) a scene where an old man with long silver hair sits on a barbed throne in a great hall with dragon skulls, and says "Let him be the king of ashes";

Mad King Aerys

5) a man who looked like Viserys, but taller and with darker eyes, who says to a woman nursing a baby, "Aegon…What better name for a king…He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire"; and when the man’s eyes meet Dany’s, he says either to her or the woman with the baby, "There must be one more…The dragon has three heads", and he picks up a silver harp and begins to play; ---

Rhaegar, clearly indication that Aegon is indeed a PTWP..but there is another Tagaryen, Jon?

9) a tall lord with copper skin and silver hair bearing the banner of a fiery stallion (probably Rhaego, her unborn son)

Is it the Dothraki lords who are going to take Dany's side in WoW and aDoS and who might have a huge role to play yet?

10) a dying prince with rubies flying from his armor whispering the name of a woman with his last breath;

Rhaegar again, but then why Rhaegar twice, could the vision no. 5 and 10 be two different people?

11) a blue-eyed king with a red sword in his hand who cast no shadow;

There is your AA..and Stannis does have blue eyes. So do the Tullys (Sansa gets those eyes), and then there is my theory of Jon becoming a Whitewalker and AA

12) a cloth dragon amidst a cheering crowd;

Now i know many of you think cloth to be fake, I infact think this is an indication of soldiers waving the Tagaryen banner with the crowd cheering

13) a great stone beast flying from a smoking tower, breathing shadow fire;

So there is a dragon in dragonstone...interesting

15) a corpse at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, smiling sadly;

Too lazy to check if Victarion's ship or Euron's ship has such a feature on its mast

16) a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice;

Lyanna - Jon

20) a corpse being dragged behind a silver horse;

Not Sure

21) a white lion running through grass taller than a man;

There is still more to come from the Lannisters..a tall Lannister..Gerion?

The rest are either flashbacks or have already taken place in the first 5 books

[rmholt]

20: the wineseller who tried to poison Dany

21: the hrakkar.

[King Bobby B]

Here are my thoughts:

1. the beautiful woman is Westeros, being raped by the four Kings: Joffrey, Stannis, Renly, and Robb

2. the Red Wedding

3. a snippet of Dany's past, and a trick to keep her in the House of the Undying

4. Aerys on the Iron Throne, ordering King's Landing to be burned

5. Prince Rhaegar and Princess Elia with baby Aegon; it is said at some point that Rhaegar was believed to be the PTWP but he later believed it was his son

6. another trick

7. another trick

8. another glimpse of the past

9. Rhaego, a mixture of Dothraki (copper skin) and Targaryen (silver hair); he would have been the Stallion Who Mounts the World, hence the stallion banner

10. Rhaegar being killed at the Trident

11. King Stannis and his sword Lightbringer; as for the no shadow, Melisandre mentions at one point to Davos that Stannis has no shadows left to give, because of how he killed Renly and Cortnay Penrose.

12. Young Griff (or Aegon, as he is now called), who is not a true Targaryen (the mention of a mummer's dragon in the next Daenerys chapter seems to be hinting at this), and the crowds who will flock to his banner to support the "last of the Targaryens"

13. I honestly have no idea. I don't think that the dragons of dragonstone are actually going to be awoken (Dany already woke dragons from stone in Book 1) and i don't think this is supposed to be meant literally

14. I guess she really likes her horse

15. 2 candidates: either Victarion (GREYjoy), coming to her rescue; his arm is dead and I have a feeling he will not last much longer; or Jon Connington, sailing down the Rhoyne with Young Griff, affected by greyscale

16. Lyanna was associated with blue flowers in Book1 and if she is Jon's mother, then him at the Wall fits perfectly

17. pretty sure this is Renly's death

18. more of Dany at the house in Braavos

19. the ending of Book 1

20. possibly the wineseller from Book 1

21. the lion that Drogo hunted and skinned for her

22. possibly something to happen in TWOW, after Dany meets the khalasar; my thought is that they recognize her power (flying lizard horse and all that) and the Dothraki bow to her

23. the slaves that Dany freed from Astapor and Yunkai and Meereen

as for the Undying Ones' words:

3 fires: one for life, one for death, and one to love

- Drogo's funeral pyre brought life to her dragons

- she burned Astapor and killed the slave masters

- hasn't happened yet

3 mounts: one to bed, one to dread, and one to love

- Drogo got her pregnant

- she dreads the prospect of being married to Hizdahr

- she loves Daario

3 treaons: one for blood, one for gold, one for love

- Dany believes Mirri Maaz Duur

- I think this one is Ben Plumm but I may be remembering incorrectly

- hasn't happened yet

[Gozluk]

9) a tall lord with copper skin and silver hair bearing the banner of a fiery stallion (She can even be seeing herself as the "stallion who mounts the world". She is a khaleesi of the Dothraki and has silver hair. May be just symbolising that "stallion who mounts the world" will still come. No other vision shows what could have been, so there is no reason for this to show Dany's child who was never born)

10) a dying prince with rubies flying from his armor whispering the name of a woman with his last breath (Can be Aegon (Blackfyre/Targaryen) dying in the contest in Westeros. He might have been dressed similar to Rhaegar to remind the public of the beloved prince and he might be whispering Daenerys. May be she promised to come to battle & couldn't or left him alone in his contest etc)

11) a blue-eyed king with a red sword in his hand who cast no shadow; (Not necessarily have to be Stannis. Can be the leader of Others)

12) a cloth dragon amidst a cheering crowd (The Targ banner. Does not have to have a deeper meaning such as a fake Dragon. Just the Dragon on the flag)

[Ghost wife]

Wasn't there a corpse in one of the containers on the ship that carried Moqorro, Jorah, Tyrion, and the rest? That probably has no connection to the vision, though.

I think this could mean Maester Aemon's. He died sad...

[Ghost wife]

The "blue eyed king with a red sword who casts no shadow" could turn out to be Jon.

Casting no shadow because he's technically dead,and a blue eyed "king" of the Others.

He can wield a hot sword because he is the PTWP who's song is of Ice and Fire,the embodiment of the two.

This is foreshadowed by his own dream where he is armoured in ice and wielding a glowing red sword.Bit of a hint there..

So maybe Dany's dream of cold sex could come to pass!!!

COuld be true! But i really really hope that Jon won't end up being an Other. And mayyyybe Tormund will rise against the Black Brothers in revenge for LC Jon. Wishful thinking.

[The Sunset King]

If Martin wants to get very in-depth about the "Slayer of Lies" scenes/images, here is a possibility:

These three images are all lies but they are deeper than normal lies. In other words, each is actively projecting an image of being something that resembles the opposite of the inner truth. The image is not simply false but hides something profoundly at odds with the reality.

For example:

Say the blue-eyed king with the red sword who casts no shadow presents himself as Azor Ahai come again with Lightbringer. However, should this person secretly be (or become) the Night's King, it would a fraud concealing something more intensely than just being a false Azor Ahai. The king would literally be using such an image to cloak friendship, rather than hostility, to the Others and many more things as well. The sword would be a false Lightbringer as well. The icy nature of a new Night's King would make the claim to Azor Ahaiship a much deeper lie.

In the second image, suppose that the cloth dragon represents Varys's Aegon Targaryen. Now, if he is a Blackfyre, he would be more than just a basic fake Targaryen, and far more interesting as well. He would be part of a line that actively fought repeatedly to dethrone the Targs while using, with Varys's help, an image built around something utterly at odds with the truth (not quite opposite but conceptually good enough to fit). If Aegon learns of the PTWP legend and someone, perhaps Varys or the High Septon, starts spreading the fact that Rhaegar believed Aegon to be the PTWP, the lie expands further and becomes more dramatic.

Now for the third image, the great stone beast. The Azor Ahai legend says that the AA will wake dragons from stone, apparently calling them to life. Davos, however, wondered if the statues on Dragonstone might have been dragons turned into stone. If someone were to raise one of these statues, like Melisandre wanted Stannis to do, and if the result was a stone dragon-like being, that would fit. It would be a counterfeit dragon and would not have gone from "stone" to flesh, as happened with Daenerys. It would be like a perversion of the Azor Ahai prophecy.

Summary: Each of the lies found in these scenes would be somehow related to a false, nearly "opposite," image being centered around a person or creature. Yet what is false about the subject of the lie would be true for Daenerys. The lies would possibly encompass the following: False Azor Ahaiship, false Lightbringer, possibly false PTWP, Blackfyre masquerading as a Targaryen and claiming the throne ahead of Daenerys on that explicit basis. Additionally, a counterfeit dragon, claimed to have been given life by someone, that is actually made of stone rather than flesh, unlike the three real dragons. If Daenerys = the new Azor Ahai, every single one of these issues would technically be true about her while being lies when used to describe the other three. It would also explain why she is actually able to "slay" these lies.

Speculative but fits well with the known facts and things that have a reasonably decent probability of happening.

[haverwench]

Not really, unless he has no chance and is desperate. There's no final way to say who is the rightful king without a Constitution or Magna Carta or something, but in Stannis's mind the Targs are clearly out. Otherwise he would have worked with to bring Viseries back. He had plenty of time to show that he did not believe that the usurpation was legal, and he declined to do it.

Yes, because he chose to support his brother. He said in so many words that he chose family over honor, and that's a choice he now has to live with for the rest of his life. But if he had another choice, another chance to choose honor, I absolutely think he would. I mean, for crying out loud, he doesn't *want* to be king. He just thinks that he *is* the rightful king, or the closest thing there is to one. If he could yield up that burden honorably, I think he'd do it like a shot.

[Gerold_Hightower]

13) a great stone beast flying from a smoking tower, breathing shadow fire;

Dany knew what a dragon looked like. Why is she describing a dragon like this? It makes me wonder.

15) a corpse at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, smiling sadly;

Master Aemon? or Connigton?

1) a scene where four men with rat faces are raping a beautiful woman;

Elia Martell, or Lollys (lol)

[Stark@heart]

Lollys? Don't think so but some of the Prophecies can be seen two ways I guess.

I thought of Cersei when I read that scene for the first time. Don't know why but I did. It being the Seven Kingdoms makes sense too but could be both because Cersei sees herself as the Ruler and she sexed up Lance and the Kettleblacks.

[The Other Others]

Dany knew what a dragon looked like. Why is she describing a dragon like this? It makes me wonder.

Master Aemon? or Connigton?

Elia Martell, or Lollys (lol)

I don't think 13 applies to Euron as he is in the wrong place but it mentions a "great stone beast" (grayscale infected dragon or maybe f!Aegon catches greyscale. The smoking tower could be just about anywhere but it's probably Dragonstone and the shadow fire could be another way of saying blackfyre so Aegon Blackfyre ends up on Dragonstone infected with greyscale. Or a greyscale infected dragon?(notice the disease is called greySCALE and the only creatures in the main part of westeros are/were dragons so they may be related somehow)

The grey man on the prow of a ship has " eyes bright in his dead face" so could he be related to the others?

He would be called a "figurehead" on ships and "smiling sadly and Gray lips" mean Greyjoy and as Euron is "the godliest man alive" could that mean he is going to be a sort of general for the wights and with the strange religion of the Drowned God,"what is dead may never die,but rises harder and stronger" sounds like a good way to describe wights.

[KristenM]

One of the things I appreciate about this thread as opposed to all the other threads that discuss this topic is how systematic it was trying to be. I kept getting lost in other threads, wondering which visions came before and after which pieces of commentary from the Undying Ones, etc.

So, to summarize a bit and help put this in context:

All the visions that she sees BEFORE she speaks with the Undying Ones seem easily explained as events that have come to pass (which they call the "shape of shadows") or will come to pass (which they call "morrows not yet made"), and finally a few are thrown in as distractions/temptations to get her to make a wrong turn.

But once she sees the Undying Ones, I think we have to group the visions the way they did, using their own commentary as a guide.

They say first:

"Drink from the cup of ice. Drink from the cup of fire. Mother of dragons. Child of three"

Dany doesn't understand. "Three?" She asks. So, they clarify, giving her three prophecies of pivotal events in her life.

1) "Three fires must you light ... one for life and one for death and one to love."

The one for life was when she burned Drogo and Mirri and her dragons were given life from stone.

The one for death seems to happen moments later, when she & drogon burn the undying ones and they all die.

The one "to love" has yet to come to pass, but I find it's interesting that she lights it not for love, but to love (as if she'll love the fire she lights).

2) "Three mounts must you ride ... one to bed and one to dread and one to love."

Given the language here, we have to ask what sorts of things do you mount? You could say you mount sexual partners (which seems to be the common interpretation of this as speaking towards Dany's husbands or lovers or something like that), but then why list one of the mounts as being ridden "to bed"? Wouldn't that be redundant, if you're using "mounting" someone to mean the same thing as "bedding" them? You could also be speaking of literal mounts -- creatures that you ride (like mounting a horse, a bull, a donkey, or a camel). If that's the case, then:

The mount she rode to bed was Silver. She mounted that horse and it took her to Drogo's bed beneath the stars on her wedding night.

The mount she rode to dread was Drogon. They've already called him the next Balerion, the Black Dread come again.

The mount she'll ride to love has not yet come to pass.

3) "Three treasons will you know ... once for blood and once for gold and once for love."

The treason for blood was committed by Mirri Maaz Duur, who used blood magic to betray Dany's trust.

The treason for gold was committed by Brown Ben Plum, who switched sides against her for money (he is a sellsword, after all).

The treason for love was committed by Jorah Mormont, who would have let her die for his love of home and a pardon.

Now, for those who say these are too easy, or obvious, or that too many have come to pass already, let's remember that when GRRM planned this series, it was to be a trilogy. He's been stretching it out and out, adding more depth & plot and detail. This was only the second book in the series, and in writing it he realized he'd need at least two more books after this one. So, it was planned to be halfway through the series (rather than at the beginning), and roughly half of these would have already come true by that time.

Perhaps, when the series is over, we'll marvel at all the layers and multiple meanings of things, or at how Dany completely misinterpreted the events of her own life. But, for now, these things fit.

Anyhow, to continue.

After being told how she's a "child of three" and them explaining these three sets of threes to her, Dany still doesn't understand and asks to be shown.

So, they show her visions.

The first set shows her how she is the "daughter of death" and includes visions of:

1)Viserys dying.

2)A tall lord with copper skin and silver gold hair standing beneath a banner of a fiery stallion.

3)Rubies flying like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sinks to his knees in the water and mumurs a woman's name with his last breath.

These are meant to demonstrate how her identity was born from three pivotal deaths:

1)Viserys -- his death made her the last dragon

2)Rhaego, her infant son -- his death made her the mother of dragons

3)Rhaegar, being felled in the Trident -- his death made her an exile

The second set shows her how she is the "slayer of lies" and includes visions of:

1)a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow holding a red sword that glowed like the sunset

2)a cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd

3)from a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

These are meant to show her the lies she is to "slay" (to kill a lie is to reveal it as false):

1)Stannis, a blue-eyed king, uses this red-glowing sword which he calls "Lightbringer" and he can no longer cast a shadow (according to Mel, his two earlier shadow babies have made it impossible for him to create a third). His lie is that he is Azor Ahai reborn.

2)A mummer's dragon, perhaps? Maybe Aegon?

3)Perhaps stone dragons finally waking on Dragonstone or elsewhere, due to some of Mel's sorcery? If so, I'm not sure why Dany wouldn't just call it a dragon instead of a "great stone beast." She does know what dragons look like, after all. In any case, there's something here that's decidedly false, and she'll have to reveal it as such.

The third set shows her how she is the "bride of fire" and includes visions of:

1)Silver, trotting through the grass

2)A corpse at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly

3)A blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness

These visions are meant to show her how she's somehow wed to fire:

1)Silver was her wedding present from Drogo, and she ultimately burned Drogo on the pyre that birthed her dragons.

2)I've got several ideas here. "Grey lips smiling sadly" screams "Greyjoy" to me, as does the ship. Corpse could be referring to the ironborn belief that "what is dead may never die" (or to this person's inevitable death), and "eyes" make me think it's Victarion since he actually has two eyes still (unlike Euron). And, since Euron wants to wed Dany and sent Victarion to her, you could also interpret in that light. What either of them will have to do with fire has yet to be seen. Another idea I like is that the grey lips are a sign of greyscale. Someone with advanced greyscale is like a living corpse; they are dying. Their face would look dead (like those awful dead parts of poor Shirreen's face), but their eyes may still be bright with life. In this case, perhaps it's Jon Connington on a ship. But what he has to do with weddings OR fire is still unknown.

3)A blue flower growing from a wall of ice, smelling of sweetness immediately makes me think of Jon Snow because of the blue flower (if R+J=L) and the Wall. As with #2, what he has do with weddings or fire is as yet unknown. If R+L=J is NOT true, then I'm at a loss as to what this means until we read more books.

After this, the visions come faster and have no further commentary from the Undying Ones. So, they seem to be as open to interpretation as the prior ones she saw before speaking with the Undying Ones. They could be visions of the past or future, but I tend to think that they are literal visions without symbolism (i.e. snapshots of what actually happened or will happen), particularly since they come with no commentary and are therefore given no symbolism by the Undying Ones:

1)shadows dancing in a tent

She saw shadows dancing in the tent when Mirri was doing her bloodmagic/shadowbinding with Drogo. It's one of the biggest reasons she didn't want to be dragged into the tent and tried to protest when Jorah forced her in. I don't think this is referring to Renly since it says "shadows" (plural) rather than "shadow" (singular), which is how Catelyn and Davos both describe the Stannis shadow.

2)a little girl running toward a house with a red door

herself at Ser Darry's house in Braavos

3)Mirri Maz Duur shrieking in the flames as a dragon bursts from her

what happened with she burned Mirri alive on the pyre with the corpses of Rhaego and Drogo and the unhatched drago eggs

4) a corpse being dragged behind a silver horse

what happened to the wine poisoner who tried to kill her. He was tied to Silver while the Khalasar marched

5) a white lion running through grass taller than a man

Pretty sure this is the white lion Drogo killed for her, from which she got the white lion pelts that she wore to protect her head & back after all her hair burned off in the dragon-birthing pyre

6) a line of naked crones emerging from a lake, kneeling before Daenerys beneath the Mother of Mountains

Pretty sure this is about to happen in the next book, given the set up at the end of ADwD. This group of naked crones is the dosh khaleen (widows of khals), and the lake is the Womb of the World since it's the only lake we know of there.

7) ten thousand slaves crying "Mother" as Daenerys rode by on her silver.

We've already seen this in Slaver's Bay.

[Aegon Targaryen VI]

I'm just gonna add my theories here.

12) A cloth dragon amidst a cheering crowd.

I personally believe that this is either Targaryen supporters cheering as Aegon rides with a cloth banner, or it could be like someone else said, that it is a lie that someone told Daenyerys, that there a crowds the will cheer for her and raise her dragon banners.

9) A tall lord with copper skin and silver hair that bears a bannerof a fiery stallion.

Most people believe that this is Daeny's unborn son Rhaego, but I take another meaning. I believe that this is some distant child of Shiera Seastar and Aegor Rivers. I think that since the banner is of a fiery stallion (The banner of Aegor was a winged horse that is breathing fire). I have weak evidence that this lord is Gerold Dayne. It's only because of the angry dark purple eyes and silver hair.

I think that Aegon/ Young Griff isn't fake, but many people disagree. I just don't want him to be fake. :P

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

What if the betrayed for gold will some how involve jamie and his golden hand >_< idk why I thought it up. I could just see him helping dany in the future and screwing her over for cersei or something. Or daario's sword hilts or tooth. HAHA

She even says I'm jealous of a women made of gold. She ponders a lot on daario's betrayl. Maybe he won't betray her because of that.