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762 Pages into the large Paperback Version of ASOS


Manberg900

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Ok this is my very first post here and I have to say I'm SO excited to have someplace to talk about the books! I love the way the forum is organized to prevent spoilers as well.

Anyways there a ton of things that I just want to rant about and get off my chest about the third book. Please don't spoil anything if you are past where I currently am in the book.

Ok so firstly, Bran:

I think it's EPIC that he can transfer himself into seemingly any living creature. I really hope this comes into play later in the book and the series in general. How awesome was it when he saved Jon from the wildlings?!?!

Secondly and probably the most aggravating, Catelyn:

I HATE HER SOOOO MUCH!! I mean jesus christ she has to be the very ruin of the Stark family. I hold her solely responsible for ALL the Stark deaths so far. She's an idiot and completely irresponsible. Worst. Mother. Ever. Let's get started:

She's the reason Eddard Stark was killed. She should have never taken the Imp without real proof. All she had was a letter from Lysa and an assumption. So she arrest the first Lannister she finds. Then how she handled him was completely idiotic. She decided to take him to her stupid ass sister rather than Winterfell. And we all know what happened from that...

She's the reason Winterfell is no more and she died believing Bran and Rickon dead. Why did she decide to stay with Rob as he was on his war march? She has no place staying with him and she ultimately became the main reason for his downfall. She should have went back to Winterfell to look after Bran and Rickon.

She's the reason Robb gets killed and why she dies as well. Her boundless stupidity drove her to release Jaime Lannister. This single event set in motion much of what happens in the third book. Why the hell would she even think she would get Sansa back. Did she learn nothing from Neds beheading? You're really going to trust a Lannister NOW? YOU IDIOT B&*^%

Then, the most frustrating event of all, the Red Wedding. I swear to God I will hate her forever for getting Robb killed. If she had never set Jaime free Robb would never have gotten injured and taken Jeyne to his bed, thus solidifying the Frey Union and maintaining battle strength. He also would still be alive btw. I was so happy when she got her down throat slit and even happier to find out they stripped her naked and gave her a mocking Tully funeral. Good riddance. And congratulations on ruining the lives of your children. I hope Jon Snow becomes king just to piss on her memory.

Thirdly, Danaerys:

I love her and I want to have her dragon babies. In book 2 her story was relatively boring and uneventful IMO. In book 3 at Astapor, she TOTALLY REDEEMED HERSELF! I was pissed when I believed she was going to actually sell Drogon. Then when I read it was all a ploy and she burned Astapor to the ground It was GLORIOUS and the most badass part of the book so far. I didn't see it coming but it was so satisfying. I really like her character and how she really has this mad side to her. She also has a very gentle side. I wonder what side will take over in the end...

Oh the Ser Barristan reveal was EPIC! As soon as his beat the hell out of Titan's Beard I was like, "who the hell is this guy" Then they revealed it. It was awesome and very satisfying and I'm glad to have him back in the book.

Joffrey:

All I have to say is, to hell with you you demonic brat. May you rest in the flames of R'hllor.

Sansa:

She is endless frustrating and stupid. She is the same stupid character who we met in AGOT. At the end of GOT I thought she was going to turn badass when she told Joffrey that Robb may give her his head instead but she just ended up stupid as always. Sadly after 700 pages of ASOS, nothing has changed. I hope she grows up and stops being the stupid little bird the Hound always called her.

It was certainly a nice twist to have Littlefinger save her though. But I'm sure it's just some trick or ploy on his part. So I'm excited to see how she will be screwed by fate and her own stupidity yet again. She's even dumber than Catelyn.

Samwell:

I'm liking his character more and more, he's made a very good progression and his plotline isn't as boring as I thought it would be.

Tyrion:

He was my favorite character in the 2nd but but through book 3 I just feel really bad for how he's been treated. His father hates him, his sister hates him and so does everyone else.

I really hope he doesn't get killed though. He doesn't deserve to die for the death of that rat bastard demon brat.

Jaime:

I HATED him at the start of the 3rd book. But now, after how Cersei has treated him after his return and how he went back to save Brienne I'm actually starting to like him a bit. I still don't forgive him for killing Jory but he's lost his sword hand and his looks so that's a nice consolation prize I guess.

Anyway, I'm excited to finish the book. I believe I have a little under 200 pages left. The wildling battle at the Wall was epic, though I was sad when Ygritte died. "You know nothing, Jon Snow"...

Thanks for reading my rant. I'm happy to have someone to talk about the book.

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Yeah, stupid Catelyn sending Theon to the Iron Islands.

Though that wasn't as bad as the time she didn't clue Edmure in about the need to let Tywin pass into the Riverlands.

And don't get me started on her marrying Jeyne Westerling.

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Yeah, stupid Catelyn sending Theon to the Iron Islands.

Though that wasn't as bad as the time she didn't clue Edmure in about the need to let Tywin pass into the Riverlands.

And don't get me started on her marrying Jeyne Westerling.

Yeah that Robb sure did make a lot of mistakes, too bad his mom wasn't around to straighten him out instead of running things back at Winterfell,,,

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Yeah that Robb sure did make a lot of mistakes, too bad his mom wasn't around to straighten him out instead of running things back at Winterfell,,,

She told him not to send Theon to Pyke and if she'd been at the Crag she'd have smacked some sense into his head. But you're right, if she'd been back at Winterfell Robb and the Starks would be doing fine, because her laser vision would have melted the Ironmen before they got within a mile of the place.

And I'm sure without her around Robb would have picked the best commander for Green Fork and negotiated an even better marriage deal from Walder Frey. Yeah, Catelyn is such a drag.

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if she'd been back at Winterfell Robb and the Starks would be doing fine, because her laser vision would have melted the Ironmen before they got within a mile of the place.

She was with Robb and how did things work out for him? If she had been at Winterfell maybe Ser Rodrik doesn't ride off with every last man leaving the castle completely unguarded. At the very least she's with her two young children when Theon shows up instead of playing war with her grown son.

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She was with Robb and how did things work out for him? If she had been at Winterfell maybe Ser Rodrik doesn't ride off with every last man leaving the castle completely unguarded. At the very least she's with her two young children when Theon shows up instead of playing war with her grown son.

Things worked out badly for Robb because he made three bad mistakes, one directly against her advice and the others when she wasn't around. How about, blame Robb for those?

While with Robb she helps him select a better commander for a crucial battle and gets him the best deal possible from a difficult but vital ally. You're arguing rather than be around to give good advice like that she should be back at Winterfell making sure there's enough butter in the cellars so she can be an even better hostage for Theon Greyjoy, who just happens to be there because Robb sent him to Pyke against her advice.

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Yes Robb made mistakes, but Catelyn still sucks, the two are not mutually exlusive...and counting sticks of butter and ensuring your castle is properly guarded are not the same thing. If Rodrik were a capable ruler he'd have his own castle instead of letting Winterfell be taken because none of its actual ruling family members were around.

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Why would Catelyn have better military expertise than Ser Rodrik Cassel, castellan and master-at-arms?

(again, this is dodging the point that the only reason Winterfell is at risk is because Robb sent Balon Greyjoy his firstborn son back, against Catelyn's advice)

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Catelyn is the reason Robb was in battle and got injured leading to his meeting with Jeyne. If she never released Jaime or left Winterfell it never would have happened to begin with. She basically is responsible for the deaths of half her family IMO. And Robb is not the reason Winterfell fell. Balon Greyjoy was going to invade Winterfell anyways and he probably would have killed Bran and Rickon sooner. I doubt he and Asha would have been dumb enough to make Osha part of their Army.

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Ser Rodrik wanted to send a large force to guard her on her way to KL but she refused in favor of a going unnoticed. Why then when Cassel wants to ride off into battle with all of Winterfells forces would she allow the castle to be inadaquately guarded? You can't say her expert advice was needed by Robb while at war over all the other seasoned battle commanders traveling with him but then say she would have been useless to Cassel at Winterfell (the place she has been Lady of for 15 yrs)

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Well said.

Disagree about Sansa though. She's grown a lot since AGOT, even if she's still being victimized by everyone.

Can you help me understand how she has grown? IMO she still sings the same little songs just like the Hound said. I'm not finished ASOS yet so that may change but so far, as she stands in the Fingers she does and says the same stupid crap.

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The Catelyn hate is about more than bad decisions. It's about how relentlessly negative and intolerable her PoV voice is. Either Martin was trying to portray a genuinely worried but flawed mother, or somehow he thought all the tragedy she suffered would counterbalance her relentless negativity.

Either way, it didn't work. As I wrote in another thread, almost every paragraph from Catelyn's PoV is an expansion on negative thought. Brienne is ugly. Brienne is so unfortunate 'cause she's ugly. Her brother's a moron for defending his smallfolk. Her brother's a moron for going whoring. Her bannermen are annoying. The people she's feasting with are too drunk. The soldiers are giving off offensive odors, even though they've been marching for a week and dying to protect her. Her sister sucks. The Knights of the Vale suck. The North sucks. The godswood sucks. Jon Snow is a grave offense to her, but she still loves Ned, as if the kid's to blame for being born. Maester Luwin sucks. The bard in the inn sucks. The innkeep and her red teeth are offensive. Renly and his lords are foolish summer knights.

And on and on and on... If Martin's intention was to get readers to hate her, he succeeded. But I don't think that's what he was going for.

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Catelyn is the reason Robb was in battle and got injured leading to his meeting with Jeyne. If she never released Jaime or left Winterfell it never would have happened to begin with.

She releases him after Robb takes the Crag.

And Robb is not the reason Winterfell fell. Balon Greyjoy was going to invade Winterfell anyways and he probably would have killed Bran and Rickon sooner. I doubt he and Asha would have been dumb enough to make Osha part of their Army.

Balon instructs Theon to raid the Stony Shore. The idea to take Winterfell is Theon's alone.

Ser Rodrik wanted to send a large force to guard her on her way to KL but she refused in favor of a going unnoticed. Why then when Cassel wants to ride off into battle with all of Winterfells forces would she allow the castle to be inadaquately guarded? You can't say her expert advice was needed by Robb while at war over all the other seasoned battle commanders traveling with him but then say she would have been useless to Cassel at Winterfell (the place she has been Lady of for 15 yrs)

Why would she think Winterfell needed guarding? Is she supposed to know that the Ironmen are marching on it, even though that isn't in their plans and only happens because of Theon's daddy issues? She's a good judge of character, not a military strategist, which is where her advice comes in useful.

So in summary: you've argued that Catelyn 'sucks' because despite her vital negotiations at the Twins and wise counsel at the Green Fork she isn't around to somehow sense the danger to Winterfell posed by a man who wouldn't be in the position to threaten it if Robb had listened to her advice not to send him away on the entirely reasonable grounds that it might not be a great idea to give a man with a history of rash declarations of war back his firstborn last trueborn son, whom Ned Stark held hostage to deter exactly that.

I'm not convinced.

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No one has to convince you, it's a subjective opinion. Lots of people obviously did not enjoy reading the Catelyn PoV chapters. That doesn't make them "wrong," it just means their reading experience was different than yours.

Lots of people jumped in after watching GoT on HBO. That means they're reading along, and probably picturing an especially dour Michelle Fairley as Cat. I'm sure that plays into it.

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So in summary: you've argued that Catelyn 'sucks' because despite her vital negotiations at the Twins and wise counsel at the Green Fork she isn't around to somehow sense the danger to Winterfell posed by a man who wouldn't be in the position to threaten it if Robb had listened to her advice not to send him away

I'm not convinced.

Oh no, she sucks for way more reasons than just that...

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Just to put it out there--I also started reading the books around the time the tv show came out (I've now finished them,) and not only did I find Michelle Fairley's portrayal to be compelling, but Catelyn to be one of the most complex and fascinating characters in the series. I liked her (and Sansa, who is my favorite character,) from the first. Both females are among the most polarizing characters in the series, and you can find the same ol' arguments, in lurid detail, going on between fans for years. Ultimately it always seems to end in a standstill. I'm wondering if anyone's opinions on these characters has drastically changed since their first impressions? Mine have changed, but not drastically.

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No one has to convince you, it's a subjective opinion. Lots of people obviously did not enjoy reading the Catelyn PoV chapters. That doesn't make them "wrong," it just means their reading experience was different than yours.

It's an argument, not an opinion. 'I don't like X' is an opinion. 'I don't like X because Y' is an argument and, in this case, I'm questioning the grounds for 'Y'. By providing book-based reasons for disliking Catelyn you provide for people to disagree with your reasoning based on what's actually in the books.

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