762 Pages into the large Paperback Version of ASOS

[Planetary]

It's an argument, not an opinion. 'I don't like X' is an opinion. 'I don't like X because Y' is an argument and, in this case, I'm questioning the grounds for 'Y'. By providing book-based reasons for disliking Catelyn you provide for people to disagree with your reasoning based on what's actually in the books.

Listing reasons for an opinion doesn't make it into an argument. It's still a subjective opinion. If people didn't like the Catelyn PoV chapters, that's their opinion. If you liked them, that's your opinion. No one's wrong.

I can say, "I don't like Soulja Boy because his beats are crap thrown together in Fruity Loops, and his skills as an emcee are questionable at best." That's my opinion. Lots of people share that opinion. But millions don't, as evidenced by 300 million plays on Youtube.

Seems like you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

[Manberg900]

Listing reasons for an opinion doesn't make it into an argument. It's still a subjective opinion. If people didn't like the Catelyn PoV chapters, that's their opinion. If you liked them, that's your opinion. No one's wrong.

I can say, "I don't like Soulja Boy because his beats are crap thrown together in Fruity Loops, and his skills as an emcee are questionable at best." That's my opinion. Lots of people share that opinion. But millions don't, as evidenced by 300 million plays on Youtube.

Seems like you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

This. I'm simply stating my thoughts so far, I'm not debating anything or trying to prove something. IMO Catelyn and Sansa are the most awful characters in the books. They are the definition of thickheadidness and utter stupidity. Sansa is just an outright moron and her chapters are very painful to read. It literally has gotten worse and worse IMO. And the samething happened with Catelyn only she started off as a badass IMO. But she soon became an unbearable fool of a took, falling victim to her stupid ideals and emotions at every turn. She got Robb Ned, 2 of my favorite characters killed and I will never forgive her for that.

[Horza]

Listing reasons for an opinion doesn't make it into an argument. It's still a subjective opinion. If people didn't like the Catelyn PoV chapters, that's their opinion. If you liked them, that's your opinion. No one's wrong.

If you list reasons that are subjective, like 'I don't like Tyrion because he reminds me of my uncle Fred', that's the case. If you bring up events from the book, they're open to argument, especially if you've reversed cause and effect or misinterpreted scenes. For example, it is objectively not the case that Catelyn's decision to release Jamie Lannister caused Robb to raid the Westerlands, so arguments for disliking Catelyn based on that are simply incorrect.

You've ignored this in favour of taking me to task for something I haven't done: argue with opinions (which, btw are by definition subjective). People are entitled to their own opinions, they're not entitled to their own facts.

I can say, "I don't like Soulja Boy because his beats are crap thrown together in Fruity Loops, and his skills as an emcee are questionable at best." That's my opinion. Lots of people share that opinion. But millions don't, as evidenced by 300 million plays on Youtube.

Well even there, you're introducing verifiable claims - 'whether his beats are produced with Fruit Loops' and questions of interpretation - 'what are the criteria for being a skilled emcee and in which areas does Souja Boy fail to meet them'. It doesn't change whether or not you like him but it does open the question of whether your stated grounds for disliking him are merited.

Seems like you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

Well, frankly, if I were you I'd reconsider that statement in the light of your active involvement in an argument with someone over whether they're having an argument with someone else and the terms on which they can argue. :P

[Drowsey Dragon]

This. I'm simply stating my thoughts so far, I'm not debating anything or trying to prove something. IMO Catelyn and Sansa are the most awful characters in the books. They are the definition of thickheadidness and utter stupidity. Sansa is just an outright moron and her chapters are very painful to read. It literally has gotten worse and worse IMO. And the samething happened with Catelyn only she started off as a badass IMO. But she soon became an unbearable fool of a took, falling victim to her stupid ideals and emotions at every turn. She got Robb Ned, 2 of my favorite characters killed and I will never forgive her for that.

I believe you are unable to put yourself in the shoes of Catelyn and Sansa. You as a the reader have far more insight and information than the POV of both Cat or Sansa. Sansa is a young, innocent child. She thinks like the sheltered, innocent 13 year old girl she is. You expect her to think like an adult and plot and plan like one is simply impossible. She is also a hostage and under contstant threat.

What Horza has stated about Cat is factually correct. You can hate her for being whiney, over protective etc. But you cannot back up with fact she caused Robb to die and you hate her for that. Robb got himself killed, in large part by ignoring her council. Cat has to be one of the most misunderstood/unappreciated characters in this series.

She did not get Ned killed. Ned had many opportunities to turn the situation in KL to his favor. But put his honor above all, even when it was sensless. Like Robb, he caused the actions that led to his own death.

[David Selig]

My opinion then is that saying "Cat got Ned and Robb" is completely ridiculous. They got themselves killed by being hopelessly naive and unlucky. Did Catlyn made Ned go to Cersei and tell her he knew about the twincest? Did she made him refuse Renly's offer against all common sense? No, that's on Ned, and those two things more than anything else doomed him.

[Lord Barristan]

Stannis is the one true king of westeros. Robb should have joined with him and destroyed the Lannisters. Stannis will triumph in the end. He has defeated the Iron Fleat. He has destroyed Mance Rayder. He has held Storm's End for over a year.

Lord Too-Fat-to-sit-a-horse, Ser Stupid, The Bastard.... Let them come. Stannis will destroy them.

STANNIIIISSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!

[Drowsey Dragon]

Stannis is the one true king of westeros. Robb should have joined with him and destroyed the Lannisters. Stannis will triumph in the end. He has defeated the Iron Fleat. He has destroyed Mance Rayder. He has held Storm's End for over a year.

Lord Too-Fat-to-sit-a-horse, Ser Stupid, The Bastard.... Let them come. Stannis will destroy them.

STANNIIIISSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!

I agree he should have allied with Stannis or Renly, but none of that occured before Robbs death. At the time, Stannis was feared, but recognized as a weak threat militarily. Renly was by far the strongest and made the most sense for Robb to ally with. I have posted before it was a mistake for Robb to try and become the King of the North. He should have allied with Renly and quickly destroyed the Lannisters.

[Lord Barristan]

I agree he should have allied with Stannis or Renly, but none of that occured before Robbs death. At the time, Stannis was feared, but recognized as a weak threat militarily. Renly was by far the strongest and made the most sense for Robb to ally with. I have posted before it was a mistake for Robb to try and become the King of the North. He should have allied with Renly and quickly destroyed the Lannisters.

Well in defense of Robb, it wasn't really his choice. They made him King in the North. Mainly the Greatjon and the Mormonts, Glovers, etc... even the River lords wanted him as their liege lord. That was never going to work for the Lannisters, especially while Lord Tywin lived. Even if he hadn't married the Westerling girl, he was doomed. Lord Tywin would have ended him with the strength of Casterly Rock and High Garden.

Remember, the book is not the show. In the show, Robb sends 2,000 men against Tywin... but in the book he sends the majority of his strength. He only takes his mounted riders to Riverrun to face Jaime... Tywin crushed Bolton. He would have crushed had he come to fight

[Horza]

My reading of the King in the North Scene is that Robb just doesn't have a plan once he gets news of Ned's death. He knows Stannis has a strong claim and no army and Renly the reverse but can't choose between them and can't bring himself to talk terms with the Lannisters, and so space opens up for Greatjon to step in with the KotN solution.

As much as I love the scene, with retrospect it's a mistake as it gives him an indefensible kingdom in the Riverlands, voids any chance of working with Stannis and could have done the same for co-operating with Renly if he wasn't such an amiable guy, and by the unforgiving standards of Westeros Robb should have known better than to claim a crown if he had any doubts that he didn't have the power, wits and coldbloodedness to keep it.

[Drowsey Dragon]

Well in defense of Robb, it wasn't really his choice. They made him King in the North. Mainly the Greatjon and the Mormonts, Glovers, etc... even the River lords wanted him as their liege lord. That was never going to work for the Lannisters, especially while Lord Tywin lived. Even if he hadn't married the Westerling girl, he was doomed. Lord Tywin would have ended him with the strength of Casterly Rock and High Garden.

Remember, the book is not the show. In the show, Robb sends 2,000 men against Tywin... but in the book he sends the majority of his strength. He only takes his mounted riders to Riverrun to face Jaime... Tywin crushed Bolton. He would have crushed had he come to fight

All good points. But what would have happened if Robbs plan to lure Twyin west had actually worked and he was unable to get word of the situation in KL? If that does not happen, Stannis would have prevailed and killed the Lannisters and named himself King. I believe Robb even mentions that this would lead for an opportunity to make peace. Maybe he planned at that point to bend the knee to Stannis and give up the King of the North title. It is not clear, but we will never know because his Uncle did not stay and defend Riverrun like Robb commanded, which eventually led to Tywin saving KL and crushing Stannis.

.

I am not convinced Tywin could have crushed Robb. He was to smart to ever get destroyed and never lost a battle. He was clearly a gifted military strategist and leader.

[Drowsey Dragon]

My reading of the King in the North Scene is that Robb just doesn't have a plan once he gets news of Ned's death. He knows Stannis has a strong claim and no army and Renly the reverse but can't choose between them and can't bring himself to talk terms with the Lannisters, and so space opens up for Greatjon to step in with the KotN solution.

As much as I love the scene, with retrospect it's a mistake as it gives him an indefensible kingdom in the Riverlands, voids any chance of working with Stannis and could have done the same for co-operating with Renly if he wasn't such an amiable guy, and by the unforgiving standards of Westeros Robb should have known better than to claim a crown if he had any doubts that he didn't have the power, wits and coldbloodedness to keep it.

Agreed. As great as it would be to become the King of the North after so many years and the opportunity was there, it was a tragic mistake.

[Manberg900]

So I'm almost finished the book now. Maybe 70 pages away. The scene where Arya kills the Tickler was freaking awesome. Is it weird that I actually like the Hound and was sad she left him for dead?

[Crown]

So I'm almost finished the book now. Maybe 70 pages away. The scene where Arya kills the Tickler was freaking awesome. Is it weird that I actually like the Hound and was sad she left him for dead?

Nope, not weird at all, felt the same as you did.

[Planetary]

So I'm almost finished the book now. Maybe 70 pages away. The scene where Arya kills the Tickler was freaking awesome. Is it weird that I actually like the Hound and was sad she left him for dead?

Agreed, that was awesome. I think Arya has surpassed Tyrion as my favorite character.

About the whole Sansa discussion: She's naive, sure, but unlike some others in her family, she has an excuse. She's a 13-year-old kid. And her story arc is one awful situation after another. Every time she thinks she'll find relief, someone else is there to manipulate her or make her fear for her life.

It looks like she's going to have a very long story arc and I'm betting she will come around eventually. The contrast between Sansa and Arya only grows as the story progresses. It hardly took any time at all for Arya to understand what was happening and how to "play the game" as best she could as a child.

Could you imagine Sansa having to endure Arya's route? Witnessing all the gore, enduring the likes of Weese, being a servant for Bolton, escaping the clutches of one bad guy after aother. I'm really interested to see what happens if/when she lands in Braavos.

[House Martell]

So I'm almost finished the book now. Maybe 70 pages away. The scene where Arya kills the Tickler was freaking awesome. Is it weird that I actually like the Hound and was sad she left him for dead?

There are +2000 post threads full of Hound love, you are certainly not the only one...

[House Martell]

If you list reasons that are subjective, like 'I don't like Tyrion because he reminds me of my uncle Fred', that's the case. If you bring up events from the book, they're open to argument, especially if you've reversed cause and effect or misinterpreted scenes. For example, it is objectively not the case that Catelyn's decision to release Jamie Lannister caused Robb to raid the Westerlands, so arguments for disliking Catelyn based on that are simply incorrect.

Just about every argument on this board is subjective because they deal with "what ifs". You don't know for a FACT what would have happened if Robb hadn't sent Theon because it didn't happen. The Jamie/Riverland scenrio is about correcting a false timeline but other then that NO ONE KNOWS what effects differrnt choices would have made. In my opinion Cat made some poor decision (Robb did too). But I admittedly don't KNOW for a FACT how things would be different had she made other choices, but I do have an opinion on the matter ;)

[House Martell]

My opinion then is that saying "Cat got Ned and Robb" is completely ridiculous. They got themselves killed by being hopelessly naive and unlucky. Did Catlyn made Ned go to Cersei and tell her he knew about the twincest? Did she made him refuse Renly's offer against all common sense? No, that's on Ned, and those two things more than anything else doomed him.

Ultimately Ned could have done many things to keep his head, but Cat did encourage him to go to KL in the first place, and she did vouch for Little Finger (even though she hadn't seen the guy in +15 yrs and the last time she did see him he got seriously wounded over her and she totally blew him off). The fact that she was oblivious to the fact that LF might not be the faithfull little puppy who adored her shows her character.

[Horza]

Just about every argument on this board is subjective because they deal with "what ifs". You don't know for a FACT what would have happened if Robb hadn't sent Theon because it didn't happen. The Jamie/Riverland scenrio is about correcting a false timeline but other then that NO ONE KNOWS what effects differrnt choices would have made. In my opinion Cat made some poor decision (Robb did too). But I admittedly don't KNOW for a FACT how things would be different had she made other choices, but I do have an opinion on the matter ;)

Sure, but hypotheses rest on premises and premises can be called into question. I think it's hard based on the text to conceive of the Ironborn taking Winterfell without Theon, ACoK Theon III pretty much bashes the reader over the head screaming 'it's all his idea!' - and this is not taking into account that Cat's reasons for not sending him were perfectly good anyway. Consequently, I'm kinda baffled that anyone seeks to blame Cat for something that was extremely unlikely to happen if her advice had been heeded in the first place, especially while accusing her of responsibility for the fate of the person who didn't listen.

[House Martell]

I never said Cat got Robb killed, I said her presence didn't help him at all (yes because Robb ignored her, but in what other case has a war commander brought their mom along?) Sure her advice may have been sound at times but there's no reason to believe that anyone was going to listen to Catelyn Tully-Stark in matters of strategy anyway, even if they should. And I would have liked to see her taking care of her two small children and running her castle (not because she is a woman, but because she is the only living Stark adult). Yes she was helpfull at the Twins, after she helped there she should have returned to Winterfell instead of continuing south (in my opinion)

[Manberg900]

So I just finished the book....A few things.

Eh em....

• Sansa gained more respect from me after how she stood up for herself with Petyr and Lysa. She may be a she-wolf afterall.
  
• How awesome was Lysa's final scene? EPIC! I love the reveal about how SHE killed Jon and lied about the Lannisters to Catelyn. Her and Petyr are assholes and she certainly got what she deserved.
  
• How awesome was Tyrion's last chapter? EPIC! Lord Tywin finally got what he deserved, a quarrel in the nutsack LOL. Can someone explain to me what Tryion did to Shae exactly? From what I read it seemed he killed her somehow but I don't know exactly how.
  
• How awesome was Jon Snows last chapter? EPIC!! GHOST IS BACK!!!!!!! And now Jon is Lord Commander! I'm so glad he maintained his honor and stayed at the wall. WINTER IS COMING BITCHES!
  
• Is Stannis slowly becoming likable to anyone else? He kind of is to me. I know he's Milisandre's pawn so to speak but he is a very realistic character IMO. He seemed to have gone through a lot and he doesn't have time for any BS whatsoever. I kind of like his no nonsense direct attitude about things. No deception, lies or little birds just fear and fire. Awesome. I really hope he gets his own chapters in the next book.
  
• Now onto the rant....Catelyn is still alive :bang: . Kill me. Kill me now. Yeah I thought it was great how one of the Freys got strung up but I was not impressed by Catelyn's appearance at the end. What the hell brah? How is she still alive? Didn't Nymeria find her floating face down in a river somewhere? And wasn't her throat slit? If Drogo dies from a GODDAMN papercut of a wound HOW THE HELL DOES SHE SURVIVE! I was so pissed when Robb died but at least I got to hold on to the fact that she died too. Oh well...at least I still have solace in the fact that she can't talk so she will probably have no Chapters in book 4 (hopefully). She needed to be muted. I wish they would have brought back Robb though.... :drunk:
  

Anyways, ASOS was absolutely fantastic and I can't wait to jump into the AFOC. Does anyone know when ADWD will be available in paperback. I went to Barnes and Noble today to get it but they said only Hardback is available. I hate hardback, it's gaudy and uncomfortable when I try to read laying down

Final thoughts:

Her are some characters I think need their own chapters moving forward: Littlefinger. After the way this one ended it's now clear he is CRITICAL in the major events of the entire story. Cersei. We've heard too much about her from other characters, we really need to hear her voice. It certainly helped with Jaime. Brienne. I fell in love with her in ASOS. She's badass, righteous, and true. You'd think she was a Stark.

Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts!