Jump to content

762 Pages into the large Paperback Version of ASOS


Manberg900

Recommended Posts

I'm kinda baffled that anyone seeks to blame Cat for something that was extremely unlikely to happen if her advice had been heeded in the first place, especially while accusing her of responsibility for the fate of the person who didn't listen.

Theon also knows that Cassel is in charge and knows that the diversion at Torrens Square will draw out all the men (obviously a Knight is going to want to ride off in full force and fight), I think it is resonable to think had Catelyn been there she may have been more cautious, her presence alone may have altered Theons plan, hell had she gone back to Winterfell Robb may have sent him to escort her...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I just finished the book....A few things.

  • How awesome was Tyrion's last chapter? EPIC! Lord Tywin finally got what he deserved, a quarrel in the nutsack LOL. Can someone explain to me what Tryion did to Shae exactly? From what I read it seemed he killed her somehow but I don't know exactly how.

He strangled her with the "Hand" chain she was wearing. I won't comment on anything else you said, you're going to have to read...enjoy!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Theon also knows that Cassel is in charge and knows that the diversion at Torrens Square will draw out all the men (obviously a Knight is going to want to ride off in full force and fight), I think it is resonable to think had Catelyn been there she may have been more cautious, her presence alone may have altered Theons plan, hell had she gone back to Winterfell Robb may have sent him to escort her...

Ok, but once again, the likelihood of there being a move on Winterfell without Theon in the Ironborn ranks is tiny. So why is the above to be held against Catelyn and not Robb for sending him?

I never said Cat got Robb killed, I said her presence didn't help him at all (yes because Robb ignored her, butin what other case has a war commander brought their mom along?) Sure her advice may have been sound at times but there's no reason to believe that anyone was going to listen to Catelyn Tully-Stark in matters of strategy anyway, even if they should. And I would have liked to see her taking care of her two small children and running her castle (not because she is a woman, but because she is the only living Stark adult). Yes she was helpfull at the Twins, after she helped there she should have returned to Winterfell instead of continuing south (in my opinion)

I'll leave it at this: I think you might want to examine the bits in bold and underline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Horza, though your debate with Martell is riveting can someone please explain their thoughts on Catelyn not being dead? I'm freaking out over here!

Oh and I forgot to mentions something else, the battle between The Mountain and the Red Viper; I was pissed when the Viper lost. He was kicking his arse! It was disgusting how he died :( He was becoming a very cool character....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Horza, though your debate with Martell is riveting can someone please explain their thoughts on Catelyn not being dead? I'm freaking out over here!

It gets answered in Feast, but it doesn't hurt to ask: 'who else has had trouble staying dead recently?'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ultimately Ned could have done many things to keep his head, but Cat did encourage him to go to KL in the first place, and she did vouch for Little Finger (even though she hadn't seen the guy in +15 yrs and the last time she did see him he got seriously wounded over her and she totally blew him off). The fact that she was oblivious to the fact that LF might not be the faithfull little puppy who adored her shows her character.

She was not oblivious to that possibility. When Catelyn came to KL, at first she didn't go to to LF because she was not sure she could trust him. When he summoned her, she didn't tell him anything until Varys appeared. After Varys spilled the beans about the dagger and LF identified it and got her in the brothel, then she trusted him more. I honestly never understood why that's supposed to be unreasonable. Which was more likely - LF got over the dull and the snub and remembered their friendship, or that he had some huge plot which required him to make up a lie about the dagger and only pretend to be friendly?

As for urging Ned to go to KL - sure, at first. But after Bran's fault Cat urged Ned not to go and he refused.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not in this case. Final clue: who's she hanging out with? (pun intended)

I believe I understand your meaning. Thanks.

Something else as well. What did you think of Tyrion telling Jaime that he did kill Joff? Do you think Jaime believed him? I personally think Jaime understood what Tyrion was saying was out of spite.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe I understand your meaning. Thanks.

Something else as well. What did you think of Tyrion telling Jaime that he did kill Joff? Do you think Jaime believed him? I personally think Jaime understood what Tyrion was saying was out of spite.

This was said out of spite to hurt Jaime. I believe Jaime does know this. He never knew he would kill his father, but he knew he would not have killed Joff.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Theon also knows that Cassel is in charge and knows that the diversion at Torrens Square will draw out all the men (obviously a Knight is going to want to ride off in full force and fight), I think it is resonable to think had Catelyn been there she may have been more cautious, her presence alone may have altered Theons plan, hell had she gone back to Winterfell Robb may have sent him to escort her...

Winterfell would never have been taken without Theon. If he had stayed put with Robb like Cat suggested, bu Robb did not listen. The first among many mistakes he made.

It was 100 percent Theons idea and Theons knowledge of Winterfell that led to it being taken. His father only planned on harrasing the shore in that area, not trying to take Winterfell. It is known.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Things worked out badly for Robb because he made three bad mistakes, one directly against her advice and the others when she wasn't around. How about, blame Robb for those?

While with Robb she helps him select a better commander for a crucial battle and gets him the best deal possible from a difficult but vital ally. You're arguing rather than be around to give good advice like that she should be back at Winterfell making sure there's enough butter in the cellars so she can be an even better hostage for Theon Greyjoy, who just happens to be there because Robb sent him to Pyke against her advice.

I put most of the blame for the RW on Robb. Robb ignored Catelyn's good advice as outlined above. Robb's decision to break his agreement and shame the Frey's, who were vital, was non-sensical. He had to have known the catastrophic effect that would have had on his war effort. I don't even buy the "honor" angle- surely breaking a sworn oath and publicly shaming another major noble house would have been a bigger stain on his honor than his pre-marital tryst with Jayne. Robb could have been called "Oathbreaker" after that.

Further, I thought that Robb handled the Karstark situation terribly. Granted, he was put in that situation by Cat's unconscionable actions, but I don't think that he could have handled Karstark in a worse way. Given the circumstances and given Karstark's service and sacrifice, that's the least Robb could have done. I found myself agreeing completely with Karstark's denunciation of Robb before Robb executed him. It seemed more like something Joffrey would do, and it made me realize that Robb was not a very good king. I don't Ned would have executed Karstark. If anything, I see Ned having Karstark and his guilty accomplices take the Black and defend the wall.

In the end, Robb walked into the wedding with a rapidly deteriorating military position having lost the North and having shamed and driven off at least two key allies. Robb had proven that he wasn't yet ready for kingship, and he ended up paying for it.

By the time the RW came around, I didn't like Cat much either. Her ridiculous decision to release Jaime Lannister without permission (which she justified as her grief) was almost unforgivable. My biggest complaint about her, though, is that she was a complete hypocrite. As with Robb, the Karstark situation showed her true colors. In the meeting right before Karstark and his men killed the hostages, Karstark demanded that Robb act against the Lannisters to avenge his sons. Cat responded with condescending comments about revenge not bringing his sons back, leading Karstark to storm out of the hall and ending with his murder of the hostages. Then, during the same meeting (and no more than 3 pages after her denunciation of Karstark), Cat demanded that Robb march north and avenge the murders of Bran and Rickon. But Cat, revenge wouldn't bring them back, right? That, after her decision to release Jaime, her contempt for the commoner, and her treatment of Jon, sealed the deal for me for Cat.

I'm probably in the minority, but I really enjoyed the RW. Not only was it an exciting example of GRRM's no holds barred storytelling, but it proved a fitting end to two characters that I had grown to dislike. Robb and Cat had no one to blame for themselves for their gruesome end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...