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"I want to see the bad man fly!" A Tale of the Vale...(End of ASOS)


Manberg900

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Hi there,

I aggree, it was one of the best parts so far. I just read the chapter for the second time after years and forgot all then revealings and was again surprised.

One question remains: Was the whole mess and the war really inteded and planned by Lyssy and/or LF ?

I think not, cause there are some things they cund not have planned.

1. Jaimi pushing Bran from the tower.

2. Joffreys hired Assasin for Bran

3. The incentual affaire Jaimi/Cersei and the children.

The first two cound't be planned by LF but were incidents which pushed the war further.

Lyssa seems do be unknowing of the Cersi/Jaimi incest and the thinks Jon Arrys found out. She misinterpreted his quote:"The seed is strong".

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  • 4 weeks later...

I thought it was one of the best "comeuppance" moments of the book. Glad a few of the other villains bit it, but I just thought that the combination of Lyssa getting pushed, and LF pawning the murder off on to the lecherous singer was a real moment of awesomeness after everything we've been put through!

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  • 4 weeks later...

I don't think any character can be named "evil". It seems simplestic. I think LF is an opportunist and wants to sit the iron throne. He has hinted at his purpose throughout the series. He has the most insignificant of all holdings and he wants to own everything just to show everyone who ever looked down at him by becoming the king. He manipulates every incident around him to achieve that purpose.

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People seem to think that you can only be evil if you enjoy eating babies for the sake of eating babies. If you want something, and are willing to hurt innocent people to get it, that's evil. You don't need to be epitome of darkness without human impulses. Those exist in fantasy. There are plenty of evil humans in our world, though.

I agree that I don't see why LF should have had risked his life for Ned. That would be heroic (and, in my opinion, stupid), sure, but I just don't see why he should have had cared about Ned more than about his own life.

I don't think Lisa slept with Petyr to get back at Cat. Catelyn never was in love with him, Lisa was. Lisa took care of him when he was sick, and then things developed rather naturally from there. I do have big amount of pity for her, I don't think people really care to imagine what it's like to have to sleep with a guy who makes you want to throw up (it's like being non violently raped for big part of your life), and worse yet to live through endless stillbirths and miscarriages. Even one can leave permanent mark on one's psyche. However, I don't think it works as excuse for all her actions, and she certainly was never a smart woman.

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Wow, it was a great chapter.

I thought all the facts about Jon Arryn's death were already revealed, but then GRRM surprised me again.

I had never guessed that it was Lysa's/LF's deed.

I also think that the kiss between LF and Sansa had its purpose. It was a bit risky though.

Lysa could have easily pushed Sansa through the Moon Gate before LF interferes.

And then it could all have ended differently.

Evil or not, LF deserves admiration for the way he plays the game. His actions are very difficult to predict and I have the feeling he will surprise us even more in the future.

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Yup crazy chapter. Have hated her since she was introduced when Catelyn went to the Vale, she just seemed like a psycho, and dumb. Hated her more for letting/sending her troops to war, and now that we now she poisoned Jon Arryn and lied to Catelyn in the letter, i hate her nearly as much as I hate Walder Frey. Glad to see her go.

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It was a great scene and chapter. The whole time I kept thinking oh no, not Sansa too! Haven't we lost enough Starks? I wasn't expecting Littlefinger though or the admission that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn or that this whole mess was LF's doing. My theory concerning him though is whenever he's "offscreen" too long he's up to something deceitful, ie his plotting in Highgarden he admitted to Sansa. I can't figure out his end game though, which makes him all the more intriguing. As far as being evil....well he's definitely sleazy, opportunistic SOB, I'm not sure evil though. I'll never forgive him for stabbing Ned in the back w/the Gold Cloaks, but he did help kill Joffrey which is a plus in my book lol.

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Regarding Petyr planning it all before hand. I hope I don't offend anyone but I disagree that Petyr planned it all out. He is clever (and I am sure that he was planning to kill Lysa someday but probably after he got the support of the Lords of the Vale in order to make sure his position was secure) but he is not that clever to know that Lysa would watch when he kissed Sansa and would react in the way that she did (not to mention just how close Sansa came to dying which is not something I think Petyr wants). I personally think that he just really wanted to kiss Sansa.

In fact I think you can tell from his dialogue in the final scene the exact moment when he decided to kill Lysa. For the first part of his conversation he refers to Sansa as Alayne so that Marillion can't tell who they are really talking about (though he does refer to her as Cat's daughter, maybe he thinks that Marillion will not know what he is talking about). However he then starts referring to Sansa by her real name. I think it is at that point that Petyr realised that the situation wasn't going to be defused as easily as he hoped it would and that Lysa was too deranged/ Marillion had heard too much that it didn't matter what he said (as he was now going to make sure they both didn't survive in any-case) as long as the situation got sorted out. I must apologise if my post offended anyone as it was not intentional, and thank you for reading my inane ramblings (it probably was not worth your time).

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I agree with you that while Petyr probably had planned to kill Lysa someday it wasn't quite that imminent! It was such a brilliant moment though and still makes me smile now while thing about it. Not just because of Lysa being a nut but the writing just made it so exciting to read. i know there are varying opinions on the kiss too; personally I don't think it was planned by Petyr to happen in that way and be overseen but he obviously wanted to do it for quite a while! I don't believe that he had the humanity and care to look after Sansa's welfare so well just because she was Cat's daughter, it's all a bit pervy really and he's definately got a twisted chip on his shoulder due to his past experiences with Cat. Could go either way really, I'm looking forward to finding out more of his grand game plan.

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  • 1 month later...

I loved this scene (just finished it last night) and my thought was also that LF had the whole thing planned right from the start. Makes you wonder just how far in advance he has things planned.

I also wonder what will happen to Robert. He'll probably starve...

LMAO! Quite possibly the funniest thing I have read on this forum!

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  • 1 month later...

I agree, the revelation that it was all Petyr and Lysa's doings that killed Jon Arryn (and blamed the Lannisters) was really one of the great moments of the series. Come to think of it, this was the catalyst for everything that's happened to the Starks, and although you would not suspect Lysa at first, it did make sense in the end. The things one can do for love, really.

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Great chapter, it give us a look at LF we didn't know. The final of TV season 2 gave a glimpse to those who don't read the books (Varys's line at the brothel).

The situation is messy, his plot is revealed and his pedobear obsession with Sansa is hotblooding him. LF went damage control mode, and outright kill Lysa with his own hands. Now we know what this man is capable of.

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LF had "been on his way to the Vale" for hundreds of pages, shows up out of nowhere, then marries Lysa as soon as they met-NOT in the Vale.

Oh, and this was the first wedding WITHOUT a death, so, yeah, I figured LF was going to off Lysa as soon as possible. He already has the vale and harrenhall by rights

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