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shmoove

Brans weirwood visions

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Ok so I'm going to try to address the two visions that have the least amount of theories/go unanswered the most.



1. The pregnant woman, I'm guessing, is the "beautiful flower" that Bael the Bard plucked from Winterfell and got pregnant, and she is praying for her unborn son to avenge not her death, but her deflowering and loss of honor. When Bael became King-beyond-the-wall and the bastard of Bael and the daughter of Lord Brandon Stark leads his army north to fight the wildlings at the Frozen Ford, Bael is incapable of killing his own blood. The new Lord Stark cuts off Bael's head and brings it back to his mother, who kills herself out of grief, after she is avenged.



2. The last vision of a man being forced down onto his knees and a white-haired woman killing the captive with a bronze sickle...one thing we know for sure is that the First Men were a fan of bronze weapons, and since this is the last vision in reverse chronological order, it makes sense order-wise that this scene takes place during the Age of Heroes, right after the Wall was resurrected and the Pact made between the CotF and the First Men. I'm guessing that the man being killed is the Night's King (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Night's_King). Old Nan says the Night's King was a Stark and hinted at his name being Brandon. When Bran is viewing the last scene, the text says something along the lines of "Brandon Stark could taste the blood." At first thought, you think that it is simply Bran feeling the scene and tasting the blood. However, if the man getting killed is Brandon the Night King, then Bran's thoughts might be referring to the guy getting killed. I'm not sure who the woman with white hair is, but I'm guessing that it is either a woods witch or Moonsinger priestess of some sort, similar to what Val really is.

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I haven't read any of the D&E books so I might be a little short (read: blind as a bat :P) on Bloodraven info, but i highly doubt the "pale, dark eyed youth" is him. Why, you may ask?

Well:

- Why would a "youthful" BR trek the whole way to Winterfell? There is no more information about Greensight in Winterfell than there is in Casterly Rock. If he is that young I highly doubt he has has his fill of Weir-paste to plug him into Weirnet.

- I may be completely wrong but i believe there is a reference to BR finding CotF on the IoF circa. KotLT incident. This makes more sense to me than a youth trekking to Winterfell before he even has full control of his powers (My timeline may be completely screwed, if that is the case please ignore this waste of space).

- What are the chances that the resident Stark of Winterfell, or any blindly loyal Northerner, would allow Brynden Rivers, a Southron bastard and Targ (I think?), to stroll into the Winterfell Godswood (the most sacred site between the Gods Eye and the Wall) and casually start carving out a few arrows? From the Heart tree no less!!

- If BR is an Albino with a distinguishing facial birthmark (Red port wine stain/Haemangioma), and Bran has met him in person, Bran would probably recognize him. Neither of those conditions disappear with age, even unnatural long tree-merging age.

Sorry for all the Bloodraven hate btw but i Really want bran to learn everything he can and get the hell out of that cave :laugh:.

On the topic of weirwood arrows though I am 90% sure there is a quote from Sam about how they were supposed to be incredibly accurate. Pity there are no Dragonglass arrowheads lying around the place or a Wall + Weirwood arrow + Dragonglass tip combo would be fairly handy in the impending war against the Others. Oh wait ... :idea:

For absolutely no other reason than guessing and a hunch I think the "pale, dark eyed youth" doesn't actually refer to dark eyes. The eyes are often referred to as a window to the soul, so "dark eyed" could refer to evil at heart (I know, i spend half my post trying to prove its not BR then take an axe to the only reasoned arguement I've seen for him not being the youth :crying: ).

Also, don't Starks traditionally have grey eyes?

New enough here and honestly didn't read all 9 pages of this so far (only 6 :dunce: ). Look forward to what ye think!!

Edit: Apologies to Winters Lady, I "quoted" your entire post then deleted it because i needed a reference for the visions :/

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Tnx Shmoove I wanted a topic about it.

First one is obvious, and I think it is a good reason that R+L=J is not true. The Second one is about Lyanna and one of her brothers probably Brandon. The rest I have no idea but like other guys I think it is about past generations of Stark family.

OK so 9 pages in its very likely someone has already raised this but how on earth do you interpret the first vision as disproving R+L=J if anything it adds weight.

:bang: Honestly.

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Well, Theon´s name suggests that he belongs to the gods. But as mentioned before, there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell, for the sacrifice to end Winter. This leads to the sad ending

Jon will reconcile the realm of men by accepting this, but only when it is certain that by his sacrifice, the line of Targaryens is ended.

Would be an excellent ending

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Is it certain that these vision only show past events (and things happening right now)?

Can we rule out glances in the future at all?

I don't see how it is possible for Bran to see the future ... all he is doing is accessing memories from the weirwood. The closest he could get would be watching in real time through the carved faces/resident animals. The only people capable of seeing the future are certain red priest(ess)'s.

Edit: also scrawny little boys from the Neck who seem older than their years :P

It just occurred to me while I was writing this, even though it's off topic, do we know if there is a maximum range for warging? I'm going to discount Wolf dreams from that, because there seems to be a special connection between the Starks and their direwolves that goes beyond warging (All the remaining kids have wolf dreams, even if Bran seems to be the only conscious warg among them). My guess would be there has to be a clear line of sight when the actual warging happens, even if the subject can go wherever they want after.

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I think the visions are from just one weirwood, the one at winterfell.



Okay so



1. Obviously Ned praying to the old gods for Jon's safety and to be loved by Catelyn (that last one failed lol)



2. Lyanna and Benjen. Benjen because it says a boy younger than her and only Benjen was younger



3. This is the one which is most confusing. Because at first i thought it was Lord Brandon's Stark's daughter...the one who was kidnapped by Bael the Bard. But it doesn't fit the timelines and it was said that she loved Bael and threw herself from the tower when her son killed him. So who is it? It has to between the years of 269 AC - 200 AC (because of point 4.). It was either Ned's mother or grandmother



4. For the timeline, it fits for it to be Ser Duncan the tall. Although i'm not sure whether he ever visited Winterfell. So there's a problem with my 'only winterfell weirwood visions'. It could be Dunk finally finding Tanselle which actually fits with the descriptions as well. Could be Old Nan though if it's Winterfell.



5. Is Brandon Snow preparing arrows before the march on the trident where Torrhen planned to kill Aegon's dragons.



6. Showing the 'old ways'. Possibly the price paid for the formation of the wall, or some other magic. These were the 'first men' and possible the woman and 'elder' of sorts...


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Bloodraven???

I don't think so...but there is the theory that ol Nan is Shiera Seastar, his mistress... He had a Weirwood bow, I dont recall any mention of weirwood arrows, but its possible.

Its between "Dunc" and the bronze sickle which makes me think its older.....like when the King in the North was about to be invaded by Aegon and his THREE dragons....

I got the impression it was a Stark carving weirwood arrows to fight the dragons three.....I also would have thought Bran might have recognized something when seeing the younger version of his new mentor. (plus no mention of red eye(s) 1 eye or a birthmark

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I think the visions are from just one weirwood, the one at winterfell.

Okay so

1. Obviously Ned praying to the old gods for Jon's safety and to be loved by Catelyn (that last one failed lol)

2. Lyanna and Benjen. Benjen because it says a boy younger than her and only Benjen was younger

3. This is the one which is most confusing. Because at first i thought it was Lord Brandon's Stark's daughter...the one who was kidnapped by Bael the Bard. But it doesn't fit the timelines and it was said that she loved Bael and threw herself from the tower when her son killed him. So who is it? It has to between the years of 269 AC - 200 AC (because of point 4.). It was either Ned's mother or grandmother

4. For the timeline, it fits for it to be Ser Duncan the tall. Although i'm not sure whether he ever visited Winterfell. So there's a problem with my 'only winterfell weirwood visions'. It could be Dunk finally finding Tanselle which actually fits with the descriptions as well. Could be Old Nan though if it's Winterfell.

5. Is Brandon Snow preparing arrows before the march on the trident where Torrhen planned to kill Aegon's dragons.

6. Showing the 'old ways'. Possibly the price paid for the formation of the wall, or some other magic. These were the 'first men' and possible the woman and 'elder' of sorts...

I thought it was pretty widely assumed that its mellantha Blackwood. ( Neds paternal great grandmother.) It makes perfect sense that she is asking for vengance after Willams death and one of his brothers has taken the Lordship, making her request for a son make perfect sense. She feels the inheritance of Winterfell for her children has been stolen by the brother. It is likely that at this point Brandon who Old Nan nursed and who was Willams first wife Lyanne Glover's child has died, meaning her children inherit, if she already has the daughter who marries a Royce, it leaves it open for one of Willams brothers to take it(my bet is rodrick, because that explains the later marriage with Rickard & Lyarra. To heal the rift) She is pregnant and wants a son to challenge his usurping of the Lordship.

It also makes total sense that the Knight is dunk & the girl is Nan as at the end of TMK he tells Egg they will head for winterfell. placing him there to bed Nan & make Hodor his descendant.

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I thought it was pretty widely assumed that its mellantha Blackwood. ( Neds paternal great grandmother.) It makes perfect sense that she is asking for vengance after Willams death and one of his brothers has taken the Lordship, making her request for a son make perfect sense. She feels the inheritance of Winterfell for her children has been stolen by the brother. It is likely that at this point Brandon who Old Nan nursed and who was Willams first wife Lyanne Glover's child has died, meaning her children inherit, if she already has the daughter who marries a Royce, it leaves it open for one of Willams brothers to take it(my bet is rodrick, because that explains the later marriage with Rickard & Lyarra. To heal the rift) She is pregnant and wants a son to challenge his usurping of the Lordship.

It also makes total sense that the Knight is dunk & the girl is Nan as at the end of TMK he tells Egg they will head for winterfell. placing him there to bed Nan & make Hodor his descendant.

Melantha Blackwood would not fit the timeline. The visions before and after suggest a certain window. Lyanna and Brandon would have been around 275AC, give or take a few years. Dunk and Old Nan would have been between 212 and say 220, if by young knight Bran means a man in his twenties. That means the pregnant women came sometime between 212 and 282.

Rickard was born sometime between 227 and 249 according to the wiki, so he would fit, making the woman Marna Locke, and the motive one of inheritance much as you describe. Rodrick the Wandering Wolf returning to kill Eldwyn while Marna was with child, and Rickard later taking back his inheritance and marrying Rodrick's daughter, Lyarra, to heal the riff.

However, Lyarra is a far more interesting possibility here as she could be unhappy with the marriage and be praying for a son, Brandon (born in 261 or 262 which is inside the window) to avenge her father Rodrick's death. That woud me she wanted revenge on her husband, Rickard. And it seems in Brandon the Old Gods answered her prayer in good old GRRM fashion.

As to the white-haired woman, I don't think we have enough to do anything but speculate on her identity, but the bronze sickle is a clear nod to the days of the First Men. Some people above have said that the man in the vision was in chainmail so it must have been after the Andal invasion, but I disagree. If you read the passage again you'll see that the vision races through a number of Kings in the North. These are the stern-faced men that Bran recognises from the crypts, and these are the men wearing mail. The man who pushes the captive to his knees is dressed in furs, not mail. The white-haired woman has a bronze sickle. The captive is executed in my opinion, but it is still a blood sacrifice to the Old Gods, and is probably related to invoking magic for something like the building of the Wall, which might make the man Brandon the Builder, or else something like the Long Night, which might make the man the Last Hero, or maybe the Last Hero was the woman? Who knows?

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I thought it was pretty widely assumed that its mellantha Blackwood. ( Neds paternal great grandmother.) It makes perfect sense that she is asking for vengance after Willams death and one of his brothers has taken the Lordship, making her request for a son make perfect sense. She feels the inheritance of Winterfell for her children has been stolen by the brother. It is likely that at this point Brandon who Old Nan nursed and who was Willams first wife Lyanne Glover's child has died, meaning her children inherit, if she already has the daughter who marries a Royce, it leaves it open for one of Willams brothers to take it(my bet is rodrick, because that explains the later marriage with Rickard & Lyarra. To heal the rift) She is pregnant and wants a son to challenge his usurping of the Lordship.

It also makes total sense that the Knight is dunk & the girl is Nan as at the end of TMK he tells Egg they will head for winterfell. placing him there to bed Nan & make Hodor his descendant.

I don't think it would be his great-grandma because again, the timelines don'ts really match

I just like the idea that Dunk finally found Tanselle (i haven't read his short story, still on my list). Maybe old nan is tanselle?? hhaha

Melantha Blackwood would not fit the timeline. The visions before and after suggest a certain window. Lyanna and Brandon would have been around 275AC, give or take a few years. Dunk and Old Nan would have been between 212 and say 220, if by young knight Bran means a man in his twenties. That means the pregnant women came sometime between 212 and 282.

Rickard was born sometime between 227 and 249 according to the wiki, so he would fit, making the woman Marna Locke, and the motive one of inheritance much as you describe. Rodrick the Wandering Wolf returning to kill Eldwyn while Marna was with child, and Rickard later taking back his inheritance and marrying Rodrick's daughter, Lyarra, to heal the riff.

However, Lyarra is a far more interesting possibility here as she could be unhappy with the marriage and be praying for a son, Brandon (born in 261 or 262 which is inside the window) to avenge her father Rodrick's death. That woud me she wanted revenge on her husband, Rickard. And it seems in Brandon the Old Gods answered her prayer in good old GRRM fashion.

As to the white-haired woman, I don't think we have enough to do anything but speculate on her identity, but the bronze sickle is a clear nod to the days of the First Men. Some people above have said that the man in the vision was in chainmail so it must have been after the Andal invasion, but I disagree. If you read the passage again you'll see that the vision races through a number of Kings in the North. These are the stern-faced men that Bran recognises from the crypts, and these are the men wearing mail. The man who pushes the captive to his knees is dressed in furs, not mail. The white-haired woman has a bronze sickle. The captive is executed in my opinion, but it is still a blood sacrifice to the Old Gods, and is probably related to invoking magic for something like the building of the Wall, which might make the man Brandon the Builder, or else something like the Long Night, which might make the man the Last Hero, or maybe the Last Hero was the woman? Who knows?

You seem to know more about Stark history than me. It seems plausible that it was either Lyarra or Marna Locke

About the white haired woman- i speculate that it is just an old woman, an 'elder' of sorts among the first men. I just have this crazy theory that blood sacrifice made the weirwoods what they are, and why they possess this magic where the greenseer can look into them. It kind've suits when you think about why their sap looks like blood..

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Melantha Blackwood would not fit the timeline. The visions before and after suggest a certain window. Lyanna and Brandon would have been around 275AC, give or take a few years. Dunk and Old Nan would have been between 212 and say 220, if by young knight Bran means a man in his twenties. That means the pregnant women came sometime between 212 and 282.

Rickard was born sometime between 227 and 249 according to the wiki, so he would fit, making the woman Marna Locke, and the motive one of inheritance much as you describe. Rodrick the Wandering Wolf returning to kill Eldwyn while Marna was with child, and Rickard later taking back his inheritance and marrying Rodrick's daughter, Lyarra, to heal the riff.

However, Lyarra is a far more interesting possibility here as she could be unhappy with the marriage and be praying for a son, Brandon (born in 261 or 262 which is inside the window) to avenge her father Rodrick's death. That woud me she wanted revenge on her husband, Rickard. And it seems in Brandon the Old Gods answered her prayer in good old GRRM fashion.

As to the white-haired woman, I don't think we have enough to do anything but speculate on her identity, but the bronze sickle is a clear nod to the days of the First Men. Some people above have said that the man in the vision was in chainmail so it must have been after the Andal invasion, but I disagree. If you read the passage again you'll see that the vision races through a number of Kings in the North. These are the stern-faced men that Bran recognises from the crypts, and these are the men wearing mail. The man who pushes the captive to his knees is dressed in furs, not mail. The white-haired woman has a bronze sickle. The captive is executed in my opinion, but it is still a blood sacrifice to the Old Gods, and is probably related to invoking magic for something like the building of the Wall, which might make the man Brandon the Builder, or else something like the Long Night, which might make the man the Last Hero, or maybe the Last Hero was the woman? Who knows?

I'm not sure why Melantha doesn't fit the timeline. Willam Stark, her husband, died in 226 at which time Edwyle took over. If Edwyle at his father's death was around Bran's age when Bran was acting lord of Winterfell, then Melantha would have been pregnant in the 215-217 range, which would be around the she wolves of winterfell. Its a tight fit, but it could work so I don't think it should be dismissed offhand. I think Marna Locke is a less likely option because the Lockes to this point have played almost no part, which to me means that it seems more likely that the pregnant woman is Melantha (possible sister to Aegon V's wife Betha, and possible Niece to Bloodraven, part of a family always looking for vengance) or Lyarra. I think the reasons you give for Lyarra's wanting revenge are interesting, but I think its more interesting if her revenge is somehow related to the grand theory over at Tower of the Hand about Southron Ambitions: http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2012/01/05-southron-ambitions/. Either way, I think the pregnant woman must be Melantha or Lyarra.

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I'm not sure why Melantha doesn't fit the timeline. Willam Stark, her husband, died in 226 at which time Edwyle took over. If Edwyle at his father's death was around Bran's age when Bran was acting lord of Winterfell, then Melantha would have been pregnant in the 215-217 range, which would be around the she wolves of winterfell. Its a tight fit, but it could work so I don't think it should be dismissed offhand. I think Marna Locke is a less likely option because the Lockes to this point have played almost no part, which to me means that it seems more likely that the pregnant woman is Melantha (possible sister to Aegon V's wife Betha, and possible Niece to Bloodraven, part of a family always looking for vengance) or Lyarra. I think the reasons you give for Lyarra's wanting revenge are interesting, but I think its more interesting if her revenge is somehow related to the grand theory over at Tower of the Hand about Southron Ambitions: http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2012/01/05-southron-ambitions/. Either way, I think the pregnant woman must be Melantha or Lyarra.

You are correct. Melantha Blackwood would fit the timeline. But if it is her then the child she is carrying must be Edwyle, but we are left with some question like, who does she want revenge on, and who does she want avenged? It can't be be her husband Willam she wants avenged as his brother Artos slew Raymund Redbeard already.

I still think Lyarra Stark is a better fit, based on an assumption that the old gods did indeed answer her prayer, simply because I think it is less interesting if they did not and GRRM rarely, if ever, takes the less interesting option. If the son was Brandon, then the only significant person in whose death he had a part was his father Rickard. Lyarra would only want revenge on her husband if her husband killed someone dear to her, like her father. And the most likely reason for a Stark to kill a Stark is probably a inheritance dispute. So I think Rodrik came home from wandering and made a claim for Winterfell, Rickard took his head but then took Rodrik's daughter as a wife. She prayed for a son to avenge her and the old gods gave her Brandon.

As for the girl kissing the tall knight. I used to think it was Old Nan but I'm not so sure anymore. Back in the day she came to Winterfell as a wet nurse for Brandon, son of Willam and his other wife, Lyanna Glover, who died during the birth. The child lived three years and died of a summer chill. On another thread Mithras pointed out that the seven year summer lasted from 221 to 228. That means Old Nan came to Winterfell between 218 and 225. Dunk might have been a few years before that, sometime around 212 to 215? Besides, I think it is more likely that all the people in Bran's vision are Starks, so I'm going for Dunk kissing a Stark, maybe a she wolf, but I'm not sure who exactly. I guess we'll find out in the next novella.

And thanks for the link, I'll have a read.

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I know this is an old thread but I had an alternate view on the first vision -
The first vision is about Ned taking Bran with him to King's Landing which he knows will upset Cat. He hopes that Bran and the Princes become close like he and Robert were to heal the animosity between Robb and Joff.

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart. But not Bran. Never Bran. "Yes," she said, "but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven.
"I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie," Ned said. "Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our house will be safer for it." - Catelyn II AGOT

So, I guess there is no need to argue over whether this vision confirms or denies R+L=J :)

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Rewatched Bran's vision from the show here : https://www.youtube....h?v=b6fq-elMOKg



At 3:11 we see a dead horse, could be the horse of the NK, then we see the Iron Throne and its room covered in snow, and then a shot of NK's reflection on ice. Now it struck me, at first i didn't pay attention to it, then a dragon's shadow over Kings Landing. Is this foreshadowing that the White Walkers will take KL and then the dragons will free it ?


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@AppleMartini

Ah, I'm stupid. You gave a perfectly good explanation just before Val's post, and here I go and make you write it all again. Bad me XD

Thank you for clearing that up anyway.

I think I might need glasses...

About that pale youth cutting weirwood branches:

I think the Bloodraven theory is plausible, but

  • why would he be in Winterfell, as a youngish boy?
  • wouldn't that put this vision too close to the Dunk/Nan(or whoever) one?
And did I just dream that up somehow, or was there a story somewhere about an archer killing a dragon with weirwood arrows through the eye? That could fit, maybe.

I always thought this was Brandon Snow, bastard brother to Torren Stark, the king who knelt.

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His younger father praying with a bowed head "…let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive."

A reference to Robb and Jon not being brothers --> another hint for R+L=J ? maybe.

A girl and a younger boy play fighting with branches;

Lyanna and Benjen practicing swordfigting

A pregnant women coming out of the black pool praying for a son to avenge her;

Either Ned's mother or grandmother praying for a healthy son, not sure about the avenging part, but we really know nothing about Ned's mother

A slender girl on her toes kissing a knight as tall as Hodor

Possibly Ser Duncan the Tall (the next D&E story will be in Winterfell, right?) kissing a young Old Nan

A pale dark eyed youth cutting three branches from the weirwood and shaping them into arrows -

no idea. Wasn't there a guy who killed a dragon with a weirwood arrow through the eye? maybe somebody can give a quote?

Tall, hard, stern men with beards in fur and chain mail forcing a captive down on his knees. A white haired woman killing the captive with a bronze sickle.

proof that the Northerners practiced blood sacrifice in the past. I also think this will come to play in the next book...

Overall I think we can agree that the visions travel back in time, as the weirwood tree gets smaller and smaller

I believe the dark eyed youth was actually the brother to "The King who Knelt." It was said that he had a brother that did not want to kneel, and actually said that he could wait until night and kill the dragons. I believe he said something about weirwood arrows.

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