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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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Nothing is certain about the ToJ, but we assume it had no contact with the outside world because it was supposed to be a secret hiding place. I mean, the Martells are liberal and all, but I wonder how they would react to the news Rhaegar's lover and living humiliation to their House since Harrenhall was in Dorne.

But even if they had ravens there or something else, Ned would need to be at least in the Reach to get there on time. Or could it have reached him when he was in Storm's End, right after lifting the siege?

Anyway, I still think he was simply lucky to get there moments before Lyanna died, but the mystery remains: how did he hear about the ToJ? Who told him, who else knows?

But not his conception.

Edit:

I think no one is intrigued by it because they all assume even the one who poses as honorable has sexual needs and will follow their desire eventually. So they wouldn't be that surprised that Ned's honor code wasn't as strictly enforced as he would make others believe. But I agree nothing explains why they never wonder about Lyanna's death.

That could be it. But cersei tells Ned in the Godswood she thinks it was Ashara dayne and Ned says it's wylla. I would think that if anyone put a little bit of thought into it they might come around to it. Lyanna being healthy and alive the last time everyone saw her. Being taken by rhaegar. Lyanna dies in a time when it is not uncommon to die in childbirth. Ned comes home with baby.

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That could be it. But cersei tells Ned in the Godswood she thinks it was Ashara dayne and Ned says it's wylla. I would think that if anyone put a little bit of thought into it they might come around to it. Lyanna being healthy and alive the last time everyone saw her. Being taken by rhaegar. Lyanna dies in a time when it is not uncommon to die in childbirth. Ned comes home with baby.

I think one of the big reasons why so few people doubt that Jon is Ned's son is because Ned has earned a reputation as someone who always tells the truth or who is at least very bad at lying. If Jon had been passed off as just about anybody else's son, people might have gone further digging. But I get the impression that most people thought, "It's Ned Stark, he couldn't lie if he wanted to."

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I think one of the big reasons why so few people doubt that Jon is Ned's son is because Ned has earned a reputation as someone who always tells the truth or who is at least very bad at lying. If Jon had been passed off as just about anybody else's son, people might have gone further digging. But I get the impression that most people thought, "It's Ned Stark, he couldn't lie if he wanted to."

That does make sense. In the same effect though they could say "it's Ned Stark, he couldn't cheat on his wife if he wanted to." and in that sense his lie is in a way honorable. Protecting his sisters child.

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That does make sense. In the same effect though they could say "it's Ned Stark, he couldn't cheat on his wife if he wanted to." and in that sense his lie is in a way honorable. Protecting his sisters child.

Ned married Catelyn when they were both virtual strangers. Add in that Ned had no idea if he would live or die in the war and it doesn't seem like a stretch at all. The attitude seems to be, "If Ned Stark could stray, anyone could," not, "Ned Stark would never stray, something's up."

As for no one apparently wondering about Lyanna, the obvious answer is yes they did wonder about her and how she died; it's just that whatever Ned's explanation was was apparently sufficient to satisfy their curiosity.

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That could be it. But cersei tells Ned in the Godswood she thinks it was Ashara dayne and Ned says it's wylla. I would think that if anyone put a little bit of thought into it they might come around to it. Lyanna being healthy and alive the last time everyone saw her. Being taken by rhaegar. Lyanna dies in a time when it is not uncommon to die in childbirth. Ned comes home with baby.

Does he really give the name of Wylla to Cersei?

As for Lyanna's death, he could safely say that some fever killed her, and he even wouldn't be lying, and no-one would give it a second thought, since in Westerosi this is perfectly possible.

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This is what Cersei says to Ned in the Godswood. "...You´ve a bastard of you´re own, I´ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea I´m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? ..." Ned replies that he didn´t kill children as Tywin did and urges Cersei to flee with her children.

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I don't really think the rest of the Westorosi lords gave a shit that Ned had a bastard, this is clearly the norm so I doubt that many people outside of his house even cared that he came back with a baby, if anything I think it make Ned more 'likeable' or they could relate with him better beacuse he's not so high and mighty, hes got a smudge on his honor too.

^^^ He tells King Robert about Wylla, IIRC.

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I read the article about Jon's parents in towerofthehand.com. It is very convincing, any one with some kind of logic can accept that. I was against this theory but after reading that I was convinced. But something is bothering me. the amount of evidence is very very high and the first book of the serie is full of evidence. They are overwhelming the book. Why would a great writer like GRRM hints the biggest secret of his book like this? It is not acceptable for me and I really like R+L=J to be wrong but the evidence are very strong!!

It seems strong because you read an article that aggregated all of the clues and lumped them together. In the actual books, the clues are often hundreds of pages apart and don't come with ultra-specific analysis. It's really, really not as obvious or out there as a lot of people seem to think. Several friends of mine have read the books and only a couple ever picked up on the clues and even then they weren't convinced, nor did they think it was obvious.

P.S: one of the things that I have seen is that Ned never calls Jon his son. It is not true and my proof is AGoT book chapter two:

Jory rode up beside them. ―Trouble, my lord?‖

―Beyond a doubt,‖ his lord father said. ―Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now.‖

He calls Jon his son to other people. He never once thinks of Jon as his son and actually excludes Jon from the list of his children that he forms in his head.

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I've always thought that Ned let it spread that Lyanna had been through some vicious abuse. Or at least didn't deny it. But his own memories regarding Rhaegar (no anger or resentment) lead me to think that Lyanna was very much complicit in the elopement, and that she told Ned something to this effect

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I am not sure if anyone posted this, I my self believe That Rhaegar is Jon's father , but I do remember a quote for AGOT . HE was going back from the brothel , where he met another one of Robert's bastards , and he said something along the lines of "If the gods hate bastards , then why would they give a man such Desire." It kind of struck me.

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Yes, that's a very telling scene. He says something about the face of Jon Snow, so like a young version of his own. Reading between the lines, I got the impression that he's puzzled that some children can look so like one parent, that all Roberts bastards have the Baratheon look and that Jon looks nothing like Rhaegar ( who is also recalled ). He doubts that Rhaegar ever visited a brothel, which I took as a judgement on the characters of him and Robert. Ned seems to feel more in common with the former

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That said I think Ned's dream(s) are a good outline for whatever happend to Lyanna, that she died at the TOJ and that her death was a direct result of her bed of blood (i.e. her birth of Jon) as opposed to her taking her own life or falling down the stairs or something else.

We have little else ... but didn't GRRM say in an interview that fans tend to take Ned's dream too literally? :crying:

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I've always thought that Ned let it spread that Lyanna had been through some vicious abuse. Or at least didn't deny it. But his own memories regarding Rhaegar (no anger or resentment) lead me to think that Lyanna was very much complicit in the elopement, and that she told Ned something to this effect

I don't think he would spread anything on purpose, it would be very out of character for Ned (lying, besmirching a dead man's honour, and drawing attention to his sister's dishonour). Also, while everyone obviously did figure out on their own that Rhaegar hadn't taken Lyanna to sing to her in the moonlight, I doubt there were any nasty details circulating, since Ramsay-style would be out of character for Rhaegar.

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I don't think he would spread anything on purpose, it would be very out of character for Ned (lying, besmirching a dead man's honour, and drawing attention to his sister's dishonour). Also, while everyone obviously did figure out on their own that Rhaegar hadn't taken Lyanna to sing to her in the moonlight, I doubt there were any nasty details circulating, since Ramsay-style would be out of character for Rhaegar.

The thing that could have prevented rumours may have been this: Ned's image, people accepting he tells the truth.

His character is so well written. Because I almost believe this image of Ned: speaking no lies.

But if one looks closer to whom he lied or withheld information in a way this comes pretty close to lying:

- his closest friend, the King. Ned's lying and withholding information about Jon's heritage constructs treason

- his wife, withholding her information in a way that influenced her feelings towards him and Jon ETA making her feel miserable

- his children: withholding them information about whom they saw as their halfbrother

- Jon, denying him information about who he is ETA making him grow up insecure and miserable

And I suspect he threatened his personnel and men to not speak the truth about what they knew

All these lies, denying, causing harm here and there. But Ned won't lie and is honorable.

All this for a promise at a deathbed. Some wise woman told me once about a promise I once made to someone long dead that could potentially harm a still living child, that the dead have no rights before the living. The promise of silence to the dead kan harm, maim, kill the living. How can this be right, that wise woman asked me.

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I don't think he would spread anything on purpose, it would be very out of character for Ned (lying, besmirching a dead man's honour, and drawing attention to his sister's dishonour). Also, while everyone obviously did figure out on their own that Rhaegar hadn't taken Lyanna to sing to her in the moonlight, I doubt there were any nasty details circulating, since Ramsay-style would be out of character for Rhaegar.

That's true I suppose. Barristan, Viserys and pretty much everyone seems content that Rhaegars love was honourable. Ned too. I just wonder what Ned said to Robert, who seems to think Lyanna was raped repeatedly, and that Ned thinks so too ( or is that just in the show? )

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The thing that could have prevented rumours may have been this: Ned's image, people accepting he tells the truth.

His character is so well written. Because I almost believe this image of Ned: speaking no lies.

But if one looks closer to whom he lied or withheld information in a way this comes pretty close to lying:

- his closest friend, the King. Ned's lying and withholding information about Jon's heritage constructs treason

- his wife, withholding her information in a way that influenced her feelings towards him and Jon

- his children: withholding them information about whom they saw as their halfbrother

- Jon, denying him information about who he is

And I suspect he threatened his personnel and men to not speak the truth about what they knew

He did lie, that's for sure. However, the way he handled the situation can be perceived as him lying as little as possible, and only when it cannot be avoided. His character and his promise go against each other, and he is treading a very thin line between them.

Besides, there is a huge difference between not telling what happened, or making a relatively harmless cover-up, and making up a nasty lie about someone (referring here to the post 30), and that's what I believe Ned would never, ever, do.

All these lies, denying, causing harm here and there. But Ned won't lie and is honorable.

All this for a promise at a deathbed. Some wise woman told me once about a promise I once made to someone long dead that could potentially harm a still living child that the dead have no rights before the living. The promise of silence to the dead kan harm, maim, kill the living. How can this be right, that wise woman asked me.

Yet, the dead do have power over the living. I believe that holding or breaking such a promise is a matter of price, and what the dead person might have done or wanted him/herself. If it's revealing the secret versus another child's suffering and death, I believe Lyanna herself would not be willing to pay it. If it's Catelyn's sole grievance in an otherwise happy marriage versus potential danger to Jon's life, the latter is apparently more important (now, I do not think that Cat would ever tell, because she is as honour-bound as any Stark, but there is always the danger of an unintentional slip, feverish raving etc.) I suspect that in the first case, Ned would have broken the promise, and so would I; in the latter, in his circumstances, I wouldn't.

Sometimes, there is no right solution, only lesser evil. One way or another, Ned causes harm - and the reason why I admire him most is that he doesn't take necessity as an absolution, and pays the price.

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It seems strong because you read an article that aggregated all of the clues and lumped them together. In the actual books, the clues are often hundreds of pages apart and don't come with ultra-specific analysis. It's really, really not as obvious or out there as a lot of people seem to think. Several friends of mine have read the books and only a couple ever picked up on the clues and even then they weren't convinced, nor did they think it was obvious.

I agree with this. The clues are always read consecutively on forums and summaries. While it is the strongest possibility there are others in which characters outright say who Jon snows mother is. Ned himself telling Robert it was wylla. Etc. R+L isn't the only scenario with evidence. While I do think they are his parents because it is the most interesting and is cool, I just would think someone in the story would formulate this theory also since others were formulated with little to go off of.

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