R+L=J v.20

[Ygrain]

That's true I suppose. Barristan, Viserys and pretty much everyone seems content that Rhaegars love was honourable. Ned too. I just wonder what Ned said to Robert, who seems to think Lyanna was raped repeatedly, and that Ned thinks so too ( or is that just in the show? )

I don't think Ned ever openly nods to that in the books; and I think that Robert simply arrives at an apparent conclusion.

Ned was also appalled by what happened to Aegon (possibly) and Rhaenys-the idea of that happening to his sister's child must have tortured him

Definitely. Also, I think that his disappointment over Robert's stance made it somewhat easier for Ned to lie to him.

[Ygrain]

I agree with this. The clues are always read consecutively on forums and summaries. While it is the strongest possibility there are others in which characters outright say who Jon snows mother is. Ned himself telling Robert it was wylla. Etc. R+L isn't the only scenario with evidence. While I do think they are his parents because it is the most interesting and is cool, I just would think someone in the story would formulate this theory also since others were formulated with little to go off of.

Er... only that people saying something does not necessarily equal to evidence. Lord Godric says something, and young Ned Dayne says something, but this does not necessarily make it true.

[FanTasy]

Er... only that people saying something does not necessarily equal to evidence. Lord Godric says something, and young Ned Dayne says something, but this does not necessarily make it true.

Quite. And let's not forget that other annoying bit of information, given by Cersei in AGOT. The text is not explicit, but she seems to believe that Ned's bastard is by Ashara and that he 'stole' a child. I am not dreaming of ASOIAF but if I was I would gnaw at a weirwood out of frustration that I just can't grasp why she talks about "the child you (=Ned) stole".

[Ygrain]

A few thoughts on my earlier post “why split company and send the child to Winterfell, when he comfortably could have taken him to KL?”

If Ned returned from ToJ with a newborn babe, people would quickly put two and two together, and especially Robert, who seems rather obsessed with the idea of Rhaegar having sex with Lyanna. Furthermore, Ned wouldn’t be able to claim the child as his own – if Lord Stark was seen with a woman during the campaign, lots of people would have known (try to keep something secret in a camp). He went to the South almost alone, and certainly without any woman, and he hadn’t been there during the war – there is no way he could have found his child there.

How many people went to the South with him? I don’t think he travelled all the way in the company of seven – in the country ravaged by the civil war, this number wouldn’t suffice for safe travelling. My guess is that he did take some guards with him, and left them behind only before going right to ToJ.

At the ToJ, there was also bound to be some staff – servants, possibly a couple of men-at-arms, and a midwife/nurse, which is most likely Wylla. Most possibly, from Starfall, arranged by Dayne. Except for the staff, Ned and HR are the only ones aware of Jon’s existence, so this is where the cover-up starts. Wylla claims the child as her own, and Ned and his Northmen can happily head for Starfall, to return the famous sword to Ned’s sweetheart. Lord Stark kindly takes the smallfolk of the ToJ along, including one of the female servants who has recently given birth.

Starfall is located by the sea, and I think it’s a safe bet that you can get there a ship. HR, Wylla and Jon (and possibly any documents or proofs of Jon’s birthright, if any exist) travel up north (again, much safer than travelling by land). Some time on the way, HR finds a replacement and arranges for Wylla to return to Starfall. Meanwhile, Ned travels to KL and arrives to Winterfell only later.

By not letting Robert see Jon, Ned is able to pretend that the boy is actually older, and that he fathered him during the time he and Robert were separated – i.e., when Ned was secretly heading north to call his banners – using the fact that he was actually seen with a fishergirl during that time.

[Lykos]

@Fan Tasy

I think Cersei knows of the story, Ser Barristan Selmy remembers, about Asharas´stillborn child. That´s why she suggested Ned stole this child.

Wylla is definitely mentioned by Robert Baratheon. He was talking to Ned about Jon´s mother and says something along the line, " Her name was Wylla, wasn´t it?"

I think that Ned left Starfall with Jon and Wylla for White Harbour and he probably got off the boat at a stop in Kings´ Landing, where Robert picked up the Wylla story. I also think that Ned was quite glad about the rumours going towards Lady Ashara and Wylla, maybe he even encouraged them.

[FanTasy]

@Fan Tasy

I think Cersei knows of the story, Ser Barristan Selmy remembers, about Asharas´stillborn child. That´s why she suggested Ned stole this child.

Wylla is definitely mentioned by Robert Baratheon. He was talking to Ned about Jon´s mother and says something along the line, " Her name was Wylla, wasn´t it?"

I think that Ned left Starfall with Jon and Wylla for White Harbour and he probably got off the boat at a stop in Kings´ Landing, where Robert picked up the Wylla story. I also think that Ned was quite glad about the rumours going towards Lady Ashara and Wylla, maybe he even encouraged them.

Eh ... I dont'get the jump from 'stillborn' to 'stolen'. Could you please explain this to me?

If I recall correctly Robert did not mention Wylla's name. He talks about a Bessa, one of his girls. It is Ned who says: "Wylla"

ETA This is in the text of AGOT, maybe it was presented differently in the TV Show.

[Lykos]

@Fan Tasy

If Cersei only knew that Ashara was pregnant, she must have wondered where the child went and could have concluded that it might be Jon.

Robert - Wylla. No I remembered wrongly, since I see the TV - show as something completely seperate. I just held Ned in such high esteem that I didn´t believe him lying. ;)

[FanTasy]

@Fan Tasy

If Cersei only knew that Ashara was pregnant, she must have wondered where the child went and could have concluded that it might be Jon.

Ah, that's what you mean. But if she heard the same story Barristan was telling Dany, this story was about a stillborn daughter. So she could not associate it with Jon. But maybe the story of Asharas alleged baby was told in more than one version.

However, I got the feeling this remark by Cersei may be important somehow. And the choice of this word, 'stole' and the use of the gender-neutral 'child' struck me.

[Summerqueen]

It's certainly possible that Cersei heard Ashara's story and thought It was a coverup to explain Ned's taking her child. A stillborn girl would not be looked into as much as a bastard boy going north. He could come back to haunt the Daynes. Makes sense that Ned wouldn't want to admit that the child is Ashara's out of fear that a son could be used in some southern plot. Cersei is pretty keen to sense plots where there may be none, so it doesn't surprise me that she thinks the Ashara's story is the reveal of the cover up. That's why the whole thing is so brilliant.

On the surface, Jon's mother is Wylla. If anyone wants to know, they can find out because this is the official story that Ned himself is as silent as possible about. Unofficiallay, Ashara's conveniently stillborn daughter may be a cover story for her family to explain what happened to her pregnancy. Anyone digging deeper would put two and two together and think they'd found a disturbing concealed truth. Ned took her son as his own and that's why she threw herself into the sea. It's a double blind for those who want to know superficially and for those who think some deeper game is always being played. We know Cersei thinks the worst of Ned, probably makes her feel that he's as big a hypocrit as everyone else. Cat understands that he might be protecting a lady's honor, as she knows Ned better.

He is protecting a lady's honor, his sister's. But that's not why he conceals the truth. It seems far more likely that he wants to prevent a war in which he supports his nephew's claim against the usurper, his BFF.

[Lykos]

Well we don´t know where Ser Barristan or Cersei have their information from. I think it would make sense that Ser Barristan was following events concerning Ashara more closely than Cersei, since he loved her.

I think GRRM is trying to keep some space to manoeuvre in the coming books. We can only figure out what makes most sense to us, and probably come close to what´ll happen, since the story needs to be convincing.

[Lykos]

@Summerqueen

Catelyn seems to believe that Jon is Ashara and Ned´s son though. So Ned would protect a Lady´s honour he himself stained. And I´m still trying to find out if there are any hints where Ashara was during the time of Jon´s conception.

[Smokefall]

The last few posts are on the money. It is a humdinger of a mystery. The matrix of relations in the TOJ/Starfall scenario is endlessly suggestive. A few other points: Wylla seems to be a northern name ( cf. Wylla Manderley ) so there's probably something to what that island dude told Davos: maybe Wylla isn't from Starfall, but went south during the war? I agree that we havn't heard the last of Ashara's baby, and that man who 'dishonoured' her at Harrenhal. I heard a theory that there was a baby switch between Elia and Ashara, as the former had a stillborn child: that could explain what triggered Ashara's suicide when she heard of how baby 'Aegon' died. It could also explain Young Griff's parents, but Septa Lemore being Ashara just complicates it one stage too far I think. Lots to speculate about anyway

[Lykos]

Aegon double fake I love that.

[Summerqueen]

@Summerqueen

Catelyn seems to believe that Jon is Ashara and Ned´s son though. So Ned would protect a Lady´s honour he himself stained. And I´m still trying to find out if there are any hints where Ashara was during the time of Jon´s conception.

I don't get your "though". This is exactly what I think. Cat thinks Ned feels responsible because he is married to her. He cannot marry Ashara, so he tries to protect her honor.

I like how Cat and Cersei both peg Ned as a man who falls for a high born lady, not some no body commoner. It lets us know that Cat is a sufficient schemer and probably would have been an asset in KL.

[Lady Octarina]

Ah, that's what you mean. But if she heard the same story Barristan was telling Dany, this story was about a stillborn daughter. So she could not associate it with Jon. But maybe the story of Asharas alleged baby was told in more than one version.

However, I got the feeling this remark by Cersei may be important somehow. And the choice of this word, 'stole' and the use of the gender-neutral 'child' struck me.

It is strange indeed, but do you mean Cersei could imagine who Jon really was? Because I'm certain if she tought he was Rhaegar's son it would have appeared in one of her POVs at some point - when she sends men to the Watch to kill him, for example.

And I suspect he threatened his personnel and men to not speak the truth about what they knew

:agree: I doubt they knew exactly about Jon's parents, but they certainly knew more than Ned allowed them to talk about.

I have heard rumblings about Rhaegar possibly forging a maester's chain, any thoughts on that?

Why would he do that?

[Lykos]

@Summerqueen

Sorry, about the "though" ,forgot about it. I was having doubts that Jon´s conception by Ashara, could possibly lead to Ned beeing the father. I realised I dont Know if they could have met.

ETA: I´m shure Catelyn would have been agreat help to Ned in KL. She understood this worrld much better than he did.

[Summerqueen]

@lykos

You mean Ned and Ashara? They were are the Harranhal tourney together, but we don't know where Ashara was after that until she's supposedly killing herself at Starfall. Or do you mean after ToJ? Ned returned Dawn to the Daynes.

[FanTasy]

It is strange indeed, but do you mean Cersei could imagine who Jon really was? Because I'm certain if she tought he was Rhaegar's son it would have appeared in one of her POVs at some point - when she sends men to the Watch to kill him, for example.

It is bugging me what she can mean.

When is a child stolen?

I can think of two situations:

1- Cersei believes Jon is not Ned's

2- Cersei believes Jon is Neds but that Ned stole it from its mother

When she believes in the first option when she says that Ned has a bastard of his own it is meant to taunt him, somehow I dont believe this, considering the context.

I think Cersei believes Jon is Neds. And that she believes he is Ashara's son.

And then it gets murky :bang:

[Lykos]

I mean the 9 month before the sack of KL. And I think we don´t have a clue where Ashara was at this time.

[FanTasy]

I mean the 9 month before the sack of KL. And I think we don´t have a clue where Ashara was at this time.

We know she was Elia's handmaid. lady companion.