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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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Ran made a well thought out guess as to what happened after the Harrenhal Tourney.

I don't believe that Rhaegar went to Winterfell. I believe Lyanna was already in the south. My speculation has been that she remained at Harrenhal as a guest of the wealthy, powerful Whents (and their maiden daughter, for whom the tournament was thrown), and would reside there a time until her brother Brandon and the wedding party for Riverrun came down.

This could then explain the sequence of events. We know Ned and Robert were in the Vale when all the bad stuff was happening. We know Brandon had Lord Arryn's heir and a Royce in his company. So it's something like this, very loosely:

* Harrenhal. Rickard is at Winterfell, his children are at Harrenhal.

* Ned and Robert go to the Vale, Brandon and Benjen go to Riverrun, Rhaegar goes to King's Landing, Lyanna stays.

* Duel with Littlefinger, BRandon says he'll return "soon". Takes off for Seagard to take a ship up to get him close to Winterfell.

* Wedding party departs Winterfell, making for White Harbor. Benjen remains behind as the Stark in Winterfell. We're told Rickard took two hundred swords with him -- this is a guard of honor escorting the lot.

* Arrival at the Vale, where they pick up Ned, Elbert Arryn, Kyle Royce.

* At some point, Brandon and his companions decide to ride ahead of the main column to get to Harrenhal and hang out with Lyanna before she joins the main party.... and they discover she's gone, because Rhaegar's come back up from the south to sneak her away... possibly with the aid of Oswell Whent.

* Rather than racing back to his father and co., Brandon in a fury rides hard for King's Landing with his friends.

This is, as I said, speculative. But I think it best fits the facts. Possibly she was located somewhere other than Harrenhal, but I'm pretty certain she was not in the North, in any case, when Rhaegar made off with her.

Lady Octarina, Apple Martini and Dragonfish already answered to that effect, but I found it nice to go through the scenario, remember, as Ran says, it´s speculative.

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to me it seems that people "in the know" approved of the revolution and the war for various reasons. The abduction of Lyanna was only the match that started the fire. So, why stop it?

Now, about Lyanna's behavior.... you obviously believe that she followed Rhaegar voluntarily. Did she? Maybe she was in love with him after all but not willing to follow him. Maybe she was so much in love with him she behaved stupidly. Lets not forget she was only a teenager, even though we have hints she was wise enough for her age. But the guy was astonishingly handsome and he was singing and playing the harp! how could a girl resist to that???? if there's someone to blame for this, it should probably be Rhaegar. He should have known better.

but, as a girl hopelessly romantic, I believe that love can make you do extremely stupid things. And that was one.

I dunno Serie, maybe I'm just not that romantic, (my dad raised me), but after a year of being cooped up in the TOJ with emo. Rhaegar, I might have slammed his harp in the door. :wacko:

And I think Lyanna has a lot of potential to be a little insensative, (see Arya), because in a weird, way she and Rhaegars roles might be a little reversed.

But, other than that, agree with your points. :D

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I have a question. We know that Arya is very very like Lyanna in every aspect and we know that she really don't gives a shit about love and stuff. We also know that Starks are honorable people and they are not gonna forget their honor easily. So why would Lyanna want to go with Rheagar when she is gonna marry another person and when she knows that this will tarnish the honor of their House?

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I have a question. We know that Arya is very very like Lyanna in every aspect and we know that she really don't gives a shit about love and stuff. We also know that Starks are honorable people and they are not gonna forget their honor easily. So why would Lyanna want to go with Rheagar when she is gonna marry another person and when she knows that this will tarnish the honor of their House?

Actually, Lyanna being free and independent is a good reason why she would go off with a guy she was in love with. If Lyanna had been more like Sansa, she would've politely declined and told him no. We know she doesn't love Robert and doesn't want to marry him.

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But this is not the aswer to my question. She is an girl,ok that is right but the honor thing is a very important thing to Starks, they will not easily just do stuff that is not honorable.

I think if she was a girl like Sansa, it would be easier to understand why she goes with Rheagar.

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Well, I've seen ppl argue that she was in love, and love makes ppl foolish and foolhardy. Personally, I believe she only ran away with Rhaegar in order to marry him. Marrying him would not have harmed her house much if cool heads could prevail until everything could be worked out amicably between the three houses involved. But they would all havecto take step back and not, IDK, ride to KL demanding the death of the crown prince. The short of it, Rhaegar would probably have to pay Baratheon her dowry, and the Starks and Baratheons might not be so chummy in the future unless they arrange a different marriage alliance or exchange wards or something.

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But this is not the aswer to my question. She is an girl,ok that is right but the honor thing is a very important thing to Starks, they will not easily just do stuff that is not honorable.

I think if she was a girl like Sansa, it would be easier to understand why she goes with Rheagar.

She could very well have gone with him expecting to be married (I think they were married), or because he told her about the prophecy and she believed in it. She might have tried to send a message explaining things that didn't get through (this is a theory as it relates to the maesters and their motives).

There are numerous reasons why she might have gone willingly with him. That we don't know what they are explicitly doesn't mean that they didn't exist.

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But this is not the aswer to my question. She is an girl,ok that is right but the honor thing is a very important thing to Starks, they will not easily just do stuff that is not honorable.

I think if she was a girl like Sansa, it would be easier to understand why she goes with Rheagar.

Lyanna did not believe that Robert would be true, as she said to Ned. She believed he would continue to be with other women after they married.

If she was a bit Arya-like, she might have been the sort of person whose sense of honor was strong, but not necessarily characterized by a rigid adherence to narrowly defined duty. She might have been passionate about the "moral rightness" of forming a true union based on love.

I think Rhaegar, who sounds more driven by prophesy than love, probably disappointed her.

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She knew that Rhaegar was a married to Ellia and we know in Westeros they can't be married to two woman in the same time. This matter is very complicated, if it is true GRRM should explain it clearly.

Oh do we know that? Aegon I and Maegor I didn't.

From So Spake Martin:

"Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous (implying that some were) ...

...There might have been a few LATER INSTANCES as well ...

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With regard to Arya being like Lyanna, Arya's not particularly concerned about honour either, though her circumstances are way different than Lyanna's. The thing about honour is that it seems to be more of a male thing, with the exception of Brienne. The girls have other priorities.

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She knew that Rhaegar was a married to Ellia and we know in Westeros they can't be married to two woman in the same time. This matter is very complicated, if it is true GRRM should explain it clearly.

Targaryens have taken multiple wives in the past, so it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Regarding why Lyanna would run off with Rhaegar, I think that she, like Arya, chafed at the narrow role accorded to her as a woman in Westerosi society, and yearned to break free of her restrictions. That's why she learned to use a sword (despite her father's objections), and I think that's why she ultimately decided that she, and not her father, should be the one who gets to decide who her husband is. Sure, running off with Rhaegar was a bit of a rash thing to do, but she did have the "wolf blood," and according to Ned this wolf blood led her to an early grave. I honestly can't think of reason why Ned would say such a thing, unless he's aware that Lyanna chose to be with Rhaegar.

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They from another age. In time that events happen( he time that we are living through it not past) we don't have a single person who is married to two woman. we can always sophistry but lets not do that.

Why not? Rhaegar was pretty obviously behaving somewhat in sync with the original three conquerors; he named two children after them and thought the three-headed dragon thing tied into his family's sigil, or vice versa. Why wouldn't he think to practice polygamy, too?

Anyway we already have evidence that they married — the Kingsguard wouldn't have stayed to guard a bastard.

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They from another age. In time that events happen( he time that we are living through it not past) we don't have a single person who is married to two woman. we can always sophistry but lets not do that.

Be that as it may, there is still precedent for Targaryens taking multiple wives, and as far as we know the practice has never been outlawed. So if Rhaegar wanted or felt the need to revive polygamy in order to marry Lyanna, I think he would have done so.

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Maybe it is OK for Targs but Starks are not like that!! We know that for sure.

Those KG's that protected the ToJ, were Rhaegars's best friends. I think we should look at them as friends of Rhaegar being true and honest friends rather than KG's protecting a true born son of Rhaegar.

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Those KG's that protected the ToJ, were Rhaegars's best friends. I think we should look at them as friends of Rhaegar being true and honest friends rather than KG's protecting a true born son of Rhaegar.

uhm, no. Rhaegar's best friend was Connington. They were the Kingsguard. Actually, the finest from the Kingsguard. Remember when Ser Gerold said "we swore a vow"? the vow of the kingsguard is to protect the king.

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Maybe it is OK for Targs but Starks are not like that!! We know that for sure.

Do we? We're never really told what the Starks' opinion on polygamy is. Well, we know they haven't practiced it, but that doesn't mean they would have any particular objection to it if it meant marrying into the royal house. And even if Rickard did object to it, there's still no indication that Lyanna herself would have.

Besides, since Elia was no longer capable of having children, Lyanna would probably have turned out to be the "true" wife, even though legally she'd be the second one.

Those KG's that protected the ToJ, were Rhaegars's best friends. I think we should look at them as friends of Rhaegar being true and honest friends rather than KG's protecting a true born son of Rhaegar.

Except that the Kingsguard specifically highlight their oath as the reason why they are not running. They never once say they're not running because they're BFFs with Rhaegar.

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I think that Lyanna leaving with Rhaegar is a very "Arya" thing to go. She didn't want to marry Robert, so she went all in for the most desirable and potentially powerful man in the country, for no other reason than she wanted to. I am sure that Rhaegar had to sweet talk her a little bit, but I imagine that Lyanna was as much a part of the idea as him. From what we hear from Ned and other honorable characters, Rhaegar was the ideal knight, leader...etc. I don't see it being in his character to have to convince Lyanna by explaining prophecies.

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