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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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Maybe it is OK for Targs but Starks are not like that!! We know that for sure.

Those KG's that protected the ToJ, were Rhaegars's best friends. I think we should look at them as friends of Rhaegar being true and honest friends rather than KG's protecting a true born son of Rhaegar.

"The Kingsguard do not flee."

"We swore a vow."

They're there in their Kingsguard capacity. They say as much to Ned. They're not just "honest friends of Rhaegar." They're men of the Kingsguard. Their job is to guard the king. If Jon's a bastard, the real king is off on Dragonstone and they're not keeping their vow. They're at the Tower of Joy because they believe Jon is the king.

I don't know how many more times I need to explain this.

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@imany: Why you say Arya doesn't care about honor?

In her POV, how honorable something is rarely something she takes into account when making her next decision. Her priorities are to protect herself, then to protect those around her. She's very loyal, and she has a good heart, but honor is something else. Also, becoming a FM isn't exactly the most honorable route either.

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In her POV, how honorable something is rarely something she takes into account when making her next decision. Her priorities are to protect herself, then to protect those around her. She's very loyal, and she has a good heart, but honor is something else. Also, becoming a FM isn't exactly the most honorable route either.

interesting. I'd say she always tries to protect the others and then herself... and what is honor if not loyalty, kindness and the need to do the right thing (in whatever context)?

but this is an Arya's issue and this is not the place so I'll put a full stop here.

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But this is not the aswer to my question. She is an girl,ok that is right but the honor thing is a very important thing to Starks, they will not easily just do stuff that is not honorable.

I think if she was a girl like Sansa, it would be easier to understand why she goes with Rheagar.

Honor is very important to Ned, we don't know how his father and siblings felt about that.

With regard to Arya being like Lyanna, Arya's not particularly concerned about honour either, though her circumstances are way different than Lyanna's. The thing about honour is that it seems to be more of a male thing, with the exception of Brienne. The girls have other priorities.

I think honor is important to women in certain cases, like their remaining virgins until marriage (or believed as such) and things like that. And that's not something I would think Lyanna to be that worried about... not that it matters, since I too believe she was into being the second wife.

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Yeah, the whole,

"I looked for you," (at all the places where your king should be)

and the book says specifically, ""We swore a vow" explained old Ser Gerold."

that for me was the first and last nail in the coffin that whoever was at the TOJ (even if it wasn't Jon (though I'm sure it was)) was the king.

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Yep... My theory is that Ned was probably clued in by Ashara not only about the TOJ's location, but also about the delicate situation - Lyanna's pregnancy and probably her marriage to Rhaegar. This is why he only took the six people he trusted the most with him rather than his entire army... He'd be able to hide the truth about Lyanna and the baby; if the whole army was there, then someone was likely to blurt out the truth.

It's also that what he was trying to do with the Kingsguard and his riddles. He knew exactly who the Kingsguard believed to be the true king, but wanted to give them an honorable out by going to Dragonstone.

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Yeah, I also believe that Ned at least suspected what he might find at ToJ, but as I think of it, he needn't have been informed by anyone, he simply may have gone through the same process as we have - KG are not at Trident - KG are not at KL - KG are not at Dragonstone - what the hell are they doing down there in Dorne, unless! I do not know why no-one else figured this out, or what cover-up Ned employed to obscure the fact (lack of information, sticking to Rhaegar's last orders...), but for a man of honour like himself, the reason of their stay must have been pretty clear. Others, not abiding by the codes of honour so much, might not be able to grasp the inevitability so clearly.

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bah! so.

eddard didn't tell jon about his parents.

eddard told him someday he would.

jon joined the nights watch.

ned probably figured if his birth was revealed to him or anyone else, if jon was on the wall, it wouldnt matter.

all of someones crimes and deserved punishments are forgotten on the wall (being a targaryen, having a baratheon as king)

HA!

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"The Kingsguard do not flee."

"We swore a vow."

They're there in their Kingsguard capacity. They say as much to Ned. They're not just "honest friends of Rhaegar." They're men of the Kingsguard. Their job is to guard the king. If Jon's a bastard, the real king is off on Dragonstone and they're not keeping their vow. They're at the Tower of Joy because they believe Jon is the king.

I don't know how many more times I need to explain this.

Their vow is not "guard the King at all times and disregard all else". Arys Oakheart didn't break his vow just by going to Dorne with Myrcella, who was obviously not the King. Part of th Kingsguard's job is also to obey the King and his representatives like the Hand and the crown prince. It's quite possible that Aerys ordered them to obey Rhaegar and then Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna without having married her and Jon being trueborn.

Kingsguard members were guarding Sansa quite often too, yet she was not of a royal blood or married into the royal family.

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@David Selig

What do you conclude from having 3 KG guarding Lyanna from her brother, who say they´re bound to a vow they gave to a, now dead, prince?

I conclude they´re guarding someone more important to Rhaegar, than all the rest of the royal family.

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However, the rules of the Kingsguard say that at least one of them MUST be with the king. And while KG can run various errands for the king, first and foremost their duty is to protect him. Guarding a Crown Prince's mistress when the new king is totally unprotected, at a time when his life is seriously endangered, doesn't make sense.

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@Ygrain

There was time to go to the ToJ after Aerys II´s death, since Ned lifted the siege of Storm´s End first. And Jaime was with the King. But the Whereabouts of the LC of the KG Ser Gerold Hightower really bothers me.

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My conclusion is, they were guarding something more important than the royal family and this according to their vows. I don´t know what they were guarding, and I don´t know what their vows were, but a son of Rhaegar, given they were loyal to Rhaegar not Aerys II,is a possibility.

Edit for typos

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But they were in an isolated tower in Dorne. How could they even know what's going in with Viserys and the rest of the royal family and that there was no one from the Kingsguard to guard them?

Actually, they do know that Viserys is at Dragonstone. That was the whole idea behind Ned's talk with the Kingsguard. He admired them and didn't want to have to kill them (especially Arthur since he had a thing for Ashara). He was giving them an out by basically inferring that it would be honorable for them to go to Dragonstone and to just leave his sister and nephew in his hands. The fact that they didn't suggests that they were guarding who they perceived to be the King. This of course doesn't mean that Jon's ever going to get a Disney ending. I think that his parents are more important for him to be the Azor Ahai and save the world than to be King; the whole idea is that the politics and war of the Realm are distracting Westros from the real terror. He either dies for real in the last battle or his ultimate "reward" is more bittersweet than happy. I think that Jon getting everything he wished for when he thought that he was Ned's bastard son and then realizing he'd prefer to be Ned's bastard son is an interesting arc.

Yeah, I also believe that Ned at least suspected what he might find at ToJ, but as I think of it, he needn't have been informed by anyone, he simply may have gone through the same process as we have - KG are not at Trident - KG are not at KL - KG are not at Dragonstone - what the hell are they doing down there in Dorne, unless! I do not know why no-one else figured this out, or what cover-up Ned employed to obscure the fact (lack of information, sticking to Rhaegar's last orders...), but for a man of honour like himself, the reason of their stay must have been pretty clear. Others, not abiding by the codes of honour so much, might not be able to grasp the inevitability so clearly.

I think that whoever clued him in on the Tower's location (Ashara) also told him the situation in plain English so that he wouldn't have to guess. Since the assumption is that Starfall was probably supplying the Tower of Joy, the Daynes were likely aware of Lyanna's pregnancy. Ashara probably also tipped off Arthur because they were preparing for a fight when Ned got there.

However, Ned probably didn't realize that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married until he was at the Tower because he reminded them that one of their duties was to protect their King, who he mentioned was on Dragonstone.

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In her POV, how honorable something is rarely something she takes into account when making her next decision. Her priorities are to protect herself, then to protect those around her. She's very loyal, and she has a good heart, but honor is something else. Also, becoming a FM isn't exactly the most honorable route either.

I think Arya has a more Stannis-like sense of honor than a Ned-like sense of honor. I think that's because she was so young when those she loved were betrayed and/or murdered. She was traumatized by seeing her father's murder and "seeing" her mother's death through Nymeria's eyes. She wants justice for her loved ones, which is really revenge from the readers perspective, but I don't think she can differentiate the two rationally at this point. The fact that she's still connected to Nymeria even across the Narrow Sea and can't fully become No one is because she's not over the trauma and doesn't really want to be. It may be that her ability as a skin changer will make her unable to ever become No one, but I think it will be interesting to see how she deals with the "honor" that goes along with being an assassin who is not supposed to kill someone they know.

Back on topic...

kg1982:

Yep... My theory is that Ned was probably clued in by Ashara not only about the TOJ's location, but also about the delicate situation - Lyanna's pregnancy and probably her marriage to Rhaegar. This is why he only took the six people he trusted the most with him rather than his entire army... He'd be able to hide the truth about Lyanna and the baby; if the whole army was there, then someone was likely to blurt out the truth.

It's also that what he was trying to do with the Kingsguard and his riddles. He knew exactly who the Kingsguard believed to be the true king, but wanted to give them an honorable out by going to Dragonstone.

I have a hard time believing that Ashara would tell Ned where Lyanna was for a couple of reasons. First, she was Elia's close friend and I'm sure if Elia was effectively set aside by Rhaegar enough that the Martells were unhappy with Rhaegar, then Ashara would probably be upset on behalf of her now-dead friend. Second, her brother was one of the Kingsguard that were ordered to guard Lyanna. Assuming she knew that, would she want to put Arthur in jeopardy by sending 6 Northmen to battle them.

The other thing is, while Ashara may have loved Ned at Harrenhal, and perhaps Ned was the father of Ashara's stillborn daughter, by then he was married to another woman and couldn't ever make an honest woman of her by marrying her. I suppose she could have been angry and hurt enough to want to send Ned to face her brother who was known to be one of the finest knights in the realm, but would she want to help him find his sister if she was that angry at Ned? Anything's possible, but I don't see it. There may have been a captured Dornishman who had some knowledge of Rhaegar's coming and going that gave Ned the information in return for pardon.

I assumed that Ashara's alleged suicide came as result of ( a ) grieving a stillborn child, ( b ) seeing the man she loved (and maybe father of her stillborn child) again and finding out he was married to someone else after maybe having been "promised" marriage after Harrenhal, and ( c ) having the man who broke her heart tell her that he killed her brother.

I don't think Ned only having six men with him means anything more than those were the only ones sworn to follow their liege Lord to the conclusion of the war. We don't know the exact compositio of Robert's army at that point, but I expect most would probably have wanted to return home to deal with cleaning up the mess and getting on with their lives after breaking the siege. It would have been important to the Northmen to see Lyanna be rescued from captivity, but no one else beside maybe Robert would care that much about it.

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Although it makes for a nice story twist if it was Ashara who tipped off Ned, there are a couple of problems. First, she would have had to be tipped off herself of not only what happened at KL but also that Ned broke up with Robert over the murder of Rhaegar's children. That's really a crucial part, since if she didn't know, inviting Robert's best buddy to the last of Rhaegar's children would be incredibly risky. Next, how did she know where to find him, since he stormed from KL to Storm's End? She would have had to have a raven trained for Storm's End, or she would have had to dispatch a quick messenger. I have no idea if there could be enough time for that. And, either way - confiding such a delicate information either to paper or to a person who can be captured and interrogated seems terribly risky.

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I have a hard time believing that Ashara would tell Ned where Lyanna was for a couple of reasons. First, she was Elia's close friend and I'm sure if Elia was effectively set aside by Rhaegar enough that the Martells were unhappy with Rhaegar, then Ashara would probably be upset on behalf of her now-dead friend.

Starfall was likely supplying the Tower, so Ashara was probably in on it with her family. If she was angry for Elia's sake, then why not send a raven to King's Landing earlier and mention exactly what happened and where Lyanna was. It would make sense that Ashara would feel anger toward Lyanna and Rhaegar on Elia's behalf, but she was also a mother who recently lost her child and Lyanna was Brandon and Ned's younger sister. (I think that she loved both Stark brothers in different ways). Ashara might have seen telling Ned as the best way to save the innocent baby and the Stark men's younger sister.

Second, her brother was one of the Kingsguard that were ordered to guard Lyanna. Assuming she knew that, would she want to put Arthur in jeopardy by sending 6 Northmen to battle them.

Perhaps Ashara was hoping that Ned could talk Arthur down and that there wouldn't be any fighting. Ned reassured Ashara that he would try to talk her brother out of his suicidal mission and gave the Kingsguard ample opportunity to stand down. Ashara probably even wrote a letter pleading with Arthur and stating that Lyanna and the baby would not be harmed or betrayed to Robert. The Kingsguard seemed to be waiting for Ned and his companions, so someone may have tipped them off.

The entire fight at the Tower of Joy was a complete folly based around honor. Ned would not have harmed Jon and the Kingsguard knew it. It was all about Jon as the rightful Targaryen king and whether or not he'd ever be seated on the Iron Throne. Everyone at the Tower knew that this wasn't going to happen, but Dayne and co. were willing to go down for this fantasy rather than doing what was best for Lyanna and Jon.

I don't think Ned only having six men with him means anything more than those were the only ones sworn to follow their liege Lord to the conclusion of the war.

Ned had recently broken the siege at Storm's End, so he probably still had a large enough army. The fact that he only took his closest comrades with him to the Tower rather than his army suggests that he was probably aware of the sensitive nature of the situation.

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