R+L=J v.20

[Screaming Knight]

I think it's obvious that every person at the tower of joy knew it would be a fight to the death. Ned rattling off the different scenarios of the remaining house bending the knee and Jaime slaying aerys was probably just his last ditch effort to prevent it and give them an opportunity to yield and bend the knee themselves. But the kingsguard responses to every one of neds starments made it perfectly clear to him that that was not going to happen. Ned probably knew that something extraordinary was happening there because he expected to see them at some point between kings landing storms end etc. I don't really see anything to go off of to even guess anyone elses role at the tower besides those mentioned in neds dream though.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Do you think it would have ended differently had Ned sworn to raise Jon as his own, as his duty to his sister? Or would the fight still have happened at ToJ?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Do you think it would have ended differently had Ned sworn to raise Jon as his own, as his duty to his sister? Or would the fight still have happened at ToJ?

Ned had to fight the knights to get to his sister and even know about Jon at all.

[Screaming Knight]

Do you think it would have ended differently had Ned sworn to raise Jon as his own, as his duty to his sister? Or would the fight still have happened at ToJ?

No. Because they were there to protect who their king. Had Ned even known he was there prior to arriving they wouldn't have allowed Ned to take Jon as his own because that would mean he wouldn't be raised as king and essentially they would be breaking their vows which they were obviously true to until the end.

[Summerqueen]

Do you think it would have ended differently had Ned sworn to raise Jon as his own, as his duty to his sister? Or would the fight still have happened at ToJ?

Personally, no. I think the KG would not be satisfied until Jon had been proclaimed. Their duty is to him (their words suggest), and not simply until they can pass him off to the nearest relative (thereby depriving him of his rightful place). Maybe if they could have stayed by his side until he was ready to make the decision himself, but that would certainly be telling, now, wouldn't it?

Obviously under this theory, Ned refused the proclamation option to prevent 1) fighting his BFF and 2) becoming a Targ loyalist all of a sudden (he'd be quite a hypocrite).

[Estel]

Do you think it would have ended differently had Ned sworn to raise Jon as his own, as his duty to his sister? Or would the fight still have happened at ToJ?

From Ser Arthur Dayne's remark in Ned's dream i.e. 'Our knees do not bend so easily', it seems that whatever Ned could have said or promised would not have mattered, since the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy would not have yielded. Thus the fight was unavoidable, since Ned could hardly have let three of the Kingsguard of Aerys go free at the end of a rebellion in which Aerys was usurped.

[FanTasy]

I believe R+L=J is very, very probably true. I like to leave room for other possibilities though. Out of curiosity and because there are some things that do not fit as tight as they should for the entire theory (R+L=J and J=king) to be rock steady.

One of the things that do not fit smoothly is why Lyanna, if she stepped willingly into a relationship with Rhaegar, would do this.

Well, it could be the great romantic love story of their time, of course. But exactly this to me feels like it does not fit in the context of what ASOIAF is about.

I guess we will not know the absolute truth until GRRM tells us more about what Lyanna wanted.

Until then I find 'out of the box'; thinking and reasoning on some of the threads very stimulating.

This particular thread for instance would be boring to me if it only featured the accepted theory.

Happily and luckily there are new posters who join the discussion. Some of them inevitably will say things that are already discussed.

Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I came to this forum to get acquainted with new theories as well as being curious if what I thought out myself would be confirmed. So I enjoy reading this happening to other posters :drunk:

About the 'out of the box' thinking. This can really help, if one feels stuck. And it is fun to do.

Some of the hinges of the theory are:

- Rhaegar crowned Lyanna at the tourney of Harrenhal as the queen of love and beauty and this was a meaningful signal. There the whole thing started.

- Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy when the fight with the Kingsguard took place.

- There can be no other explanations for three of the Kingsguard being in the south than guarding the king.

- Ned loved Lyanna so much that he would promise her anything, even if this would cause harm to himself, betrayed his best friend, constituted treason, implicated lying to his wife and to Lyanna's child.

- Rhaegar wanted to create a breeding line for Aegon..

It helped me to try if questioning these assumptions will affect the theory :cool4:

[Gala]

Regarding Ashara, we really have no idea where she was during the war itself. I'm personally a fan of the theory that she met with Ned clandestinely during the war to tell him where Lyanna was, and that this meeting was the source of the rumors surrounding her and Ned.

Nice idea! I really like it.

[Estel]

In Ned's dream, there is an interesting remark made by Ser Arthur Dayne. When Ser Gerold Hightower points out that 'The Kingsguard does not flee', Ser Arthur says 'Then or now'.

Anybody have any ideas on what the 'then' in Ser Arthur's remark might mean?

[Gala]

From Ser Arthur Dayne's remark in Ned's dream i.e. 'Our knees do not bend so easily', it seems that whatever Ned could have said or promised would not have mattered, since the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy would not have yielded. Thus the fight was unavoidable, since Ned could hardly have let three of the Kingsguard of Aerys go free at the end of a rebellion in which Aerys was usurped.

That is what I felt and thought when I read Ned's dream. Besides, Ned had so much of respect to those Kingsguards (well, even for Barristan, who wasn't there) and pity for that fight. Their attitude, loyalty and decision at that moment (protecting Lyanna even from her own beloved brother) is admirable and deserves a lot of respect.

[FanTasy]

In Ned's dream, there is an interesting remark made by Ser Arthur Dayne. When Ser Gerold Hightower points out that 'The Kingsguard does not flee', Ser Arthur says 'Then or now'.

Anybody have any ideas on what the 'then' in Ser Arthur's remark might mean?

Good catch Estel. It is one of the things that have not been explained thoroughly. We lack information. Of course it could just be a manner of speech: Hightower Dayne referring to the tradition of the Kingsguard. But somehow I doubt this: Hightower Dayne could be referring to another situation, a situation Ned has to be very familiar with.

[Estel]

That is what I felt and thought when I read Ned's dream. Besides, Ned had so much of respect to those Kingsguards (well, even for Barristan, who wasn't there) and pity for that fight. Their attitude, loyalty and decision at that moment (protecting Lyanna even from her own beloved brother) is admirable and deserves a lot of respect.

Same for me. I think, Rhaegar's ability to ellicit this remarkable sort of loyalty from such great men and honourable knights spoke volumes about the kind of man he was, a long time before any of Selmy Barristan's reminiscences to Daenerys actually confirmed it.

Good catch Estel. It is one of the things that have not been explained thoroughly. We lack information. Of course it could just be a manner of speech: Hightower Dayne referring to the tradition of the Kingsguard. But somehow I doubt this: Hightower Dayne could be referring to another situation, a situation Ned has to be very familiar with.

Exactly, and yet there is no mention of any stand off between the Kingsguard with Ser Arthur and some group of men of which Ned was a part, prior to this showdown at the ToJ. So IMO, we are definitely missing information about something very interesting that happened prior to the beginning of Robert's rebellion.

[Gala]

Good catch Estel. It is one of the things that have not been explained thoroughly. We lack information. Of course it could just be a manner of speech: Hightower Dayne referring to the tradition of the Kingsguard. But somehow I doubt this: Hightower Dayne could be referring to another situation, a situation Ned has to be very familiar with.

I thought it was a reference to the Kingsguards, who were still alive in KL and who bend their knees, but I read AGOT in Russian therefore (the rest of them I read in English), i didn't know the literal words from the book. Now it seems that they were talking about something else, which was known to all of them. Interesting...

[the Remarkable Other]

I also count myself among those that believe the R+L=J is unfortunately true, but for the sake of debate I will play the devil's advocate a bit.

First, strong opinion: I believe that the most plausible explanation for the presence of the 3 KG at the tower is that they were ordered to stay there. Even if Jon is legitimate, he would be third in the line of succesion, after Rhaegar and Aegon. What I find remarkable is their (presumable) absence from the Trident (the LC of the KG or Arthur Dayne would be worth mentioning by those that remember the battle) and (definite) from KL at the time of the sack. There could be other explanations for their whereabouts, but them being at the ToJ or en route is the most plausible.

Speculation ( I don't really belive it to be true, but it is plausible to some extent): the three KG are at the ToJ, on orders to guard Rhaegar's mistress (who is also an important hostage). She may or may not be pregnant with Rhaegar's bastard. They receive news of the sack and the death of most of the royal family. They also learn that Jaime took a dump on the honor of the entire KG by slaying the king they were sworn to protect. We know they are honorable men (they chose to go down fighting). Ned and his men come along at some point. What options do the three knights have?

1) Lay down their weapons and go home. Not really an option. It would mean to forsake their honor and the vow they took when they joined the KG. They would lead a life of shame.

2) Go to Viserys. Honorable option, but the boy may have already exhibited signs of madness and maybe they've had enough of mad kings.

3) Serve Robert. Again not really an option for an honorable man (Barristan had switched sides before learning of the deaths of Rhaegar's children). They see him as an usurper and perhaps blame him for the death of the children (they have no way of confirming that Tywin acted on his own). Also a life of shame and dishonor.

4) Die in the line of duty, obeying Rhaegar's (or Aerys's) last orders. Just as honorable as going to Viserys, and they don't have to deal with another madman (presumably in exile).

And so they choose to go out in a blaze, cleansing themselves from Jaime's taint.

End of speculation.

[Estel]

I also count myself among those that believe the R+L=J is unfortunately true, but for the sake of debate I will play the devil's advocate a bit.

First, strong opinion: I believe that the most plausible explanation for the presence of the 3 KG at the tower is that they were ordered to stay there. Even if Jon is legitimate, he would be third in the line of succesion, after Rhaegar and Aegon. What I find remarkable is their (presumable) absence from the Trident (the LC of the KG or Arthur Dayne would be worth mentioning by those that remember the battle) and (definite) from KL at the time of the sack. There could be other explanations for their whereabouts, but them being at the ToJ or en route is the most plausible.

Speculation ( I don't really belive it to be true, but it is plausible to some extent): the three KG are at the ToJ, on orders to guard Rhaegar's mistress (who is also an important hostage). She may or may not be pregnant with Rhaegar's bastard. They receive news of the sack and the death of most of the royal family. They also learn that Jaime took a dump on the honor of the entire KG by slaying the king they were sworn to protect. We know they are honorable men (they chose to go down fighting). Ned an his men come along at some point. What options do the three knights have?

1) Lay down their weapons and go home. Not really an option. It would mean to forsake their honor and the vow they took when they joined the KG. They would lead a life of shame.

2) Go to Viserys. Honorable option, but the boy may have already exhibited signs of madness and maybe they've had enough of mad kings.

3) Serve Robert. Again not really an option for an honorable man (Barristan had switched sides before learning of the deaths of Rhaegar's children). They see him as an usurper and perhaps blame him for the death of the children (they have no way of confirming that Tywin acted on his own). Also a life of shame and dishonor.

4) Die in the line of duty, obeying Rhaegar's (or Aerys's) last orders. Just as honorable as going to Viserys, and they don't have to deal with another madman (presumably in exile).

And so they choose to go out in a blaze, cleansing themselves from Jaime's taint.

End of speculation.

I gave a lot of thought to the three Kingsguard's absence from specifically Kings Landing, post the events of the Trident (since prior to that as far as they are concerned, 4 of their order are with the King or the heir to the throne).

The conclusion that I came to was that, news regarding the loss at the Trident arrived too late at the ToJ (even possibly coming at the same time as the word from Kings Landing regarding the sack) and therefore these three remained at the ToJ guarding the new rightful king (which Jon would be if Rhaegar had married Lyanna before riding off).

Thus, them waiting at the bottom of the ToJ when Ned and his six companions ride out to the tower, and not wanting to move aside makes sense, considering that they could be said to be protecting their king from rebels, at that moment in time.

[Gala]

Despite whether they were doing the last order or protecting the heir, protecting the love of their Prince, trying to clean the KIngsguards' honor, it doesn't really matter. Their deed deserves the highest great respect, admiration, worship, adoration…sorry I can't find the word to express my feelings about those knights...

But I agree, they would probably want to die in honorable way, not turning from the "right, but hard, path". Then, I even glad that it was Ned, who came for them: his personality is probably the closest to their beliefs and standards, probably, to die of a hand of such man is not so shameful for the best men in the kingdom (I don't think they knew Ned well, but for me as a reader it is both a huge pity and a little relief). Just imagine if it wasn't Ned, but someone like Gregor or they would be publicly executed - both scenarios are horrible for these knights. and yes, I have huge admiration for Ned, too.

[Screaming Knight]

In Ned's dream, there is an interesting remark made by Ser Arthur Dayne. When Ser Gerold Hightower points out that 'The Kingsguard does not flee', Ser Arthur says 'Then or now'.

Anybody have any ideas on what the 'then' in Ser Arthur's remark might mean?

I think it's in reference the 'then' means they didn't flee when Willem Darry fled.

[FanTasy]

I think it's in reference the 'then' means they didn't flee when Willem Darry fled.

But if Darry 'fled', he did so to protect the members of the royal family. Darry never bended the knee to Robert, like Barristan did.

ETA Sorry, I am confusing the Darry's here. William Darry protected Viserys and Dany.

His brother was in the Kingsguard. He was slain at the Trident. When did he flee?

[Ygrain]

I don't have my AGOT; what exactly preceded "The KG does not flee?" Darry saving Viserys?

[Serie]

But if Darry 'fled', he did so to protect the members of the royal family. Darry never bended the knee to Robert, like Barristan did.

ETA Sorry, I am confusing the Darry's here. William Darry protected Viserys and Dany.

His brother was in the Kingsguard. He was slain at the Trident. When did he flee?

and Willem Darry was not a member of the Kingsguard. Am I wrong here? I think the "then or now" comment refers to the KG only.