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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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and Willem Darry was not a member of the Kingsguard. Am I wrong here? I think the "then or now" comment refers to the KG only.

No your not wrong. He was master at arms for kings landing. Ned said he fled to dragonstone with the kids. An one of them said he was a good man and true but not of the kingsguard. Dayne said the kingsguard does not flee. Then(when Darry fled) or now. I think it's pretty clear. It's in direct response to Darry fleeing 'then'.

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and Willem Darry was not a member of the Kingsguard. Am I wrong here? I think the "then or now" comment refers to the KG only.

Or maybe he was reffering to the battle at the Trident. None of the KG (that we know for certain participated) fled the battle: two fought to the death and the last was heavily wounded and captured.

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and Willem Darry was not a member of the Kingsguard. Am I wrong here? I think the "then or now" comment refers to the KG only.

I ETA'd my post. The Darry that saved Viserys and Dany was the brother of the Darry that was slain at the Trident. William Darry was Master of Arms, if I recall correctly.

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- A really stupid question from me (and thrice be cursed the one who borrowed my AGOT and didn't return it!): is it clearly stated that none of the three remaining KG was at Trident? They say they weren't at KL, or else Aerys would have been still alive, but do they say the same about Trident?

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- A really stupid question from me (and thrice be cursed the one who borrowed my AGOT and didn't return it!): is it clearly stated that none of the three remaining KG was at Trident? They say they weren't at KL, or else Aerys would have been still alive, but do they say the same about Trident?

To the bolded part: No.

Apple Martini: why would the Kingsguard refer in a speech that considers the honor of the Kingsguard to William Darry, not one of the Sworn Brothers?

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The "then or now" thing seems to reference Willem Darry, who was not a Kingsguard, running to Dragonstone with Rhaella and Viserys.

I remember reading recently that Aerys ordered Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone. It must have been in ASOS, probably in one of Jaime's p.o.v. In what sense was Darry running?

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- A really stupid question from me (and thrice be cursed the one who borrowed my AGOT and didn't return it!): is it clearly stated that none of the three remaining KG was at Trident? They say they weren't at KL, or else Aerys would have been still alive, but do they say the same about Trident?

Quote (from a dubiously translated version)

"Ned : I've looked for you upon the Trident.

Ser Gerold: We were not there.

Oswell: Woe to the usurper had we been there."

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To the bolded part: No.

Apple Martini: why would the Kingsguard refer in a speech that considers the honor of the Kingsguard to William Darry, not one of the Sworn Brothers?

First off, it's Willem Darry.

"Willem Darry is a good man, and true, but he's not of the Kingsguard."

"The Kingsguard do not flee, then or now."

"We swore a vow."

1. Ned has every reason to think that Viserys is the king. By pointing out that Willem Darry is not a Kingsguard, the three guys at the Tower are hinting that Viserys ISN'T the king.

2. I believe they're also saying that they would have done something other than run to Dragonstone had they been left in charge of Rhaella and Viserys. They considered that "fleeing." Just because Aerys ordered it wouldn't make it be any less undesirable, to them.

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Hmm ... re-read that part in Eddard X.

I'm still inclined to think it is not plain and straight forward.

Ned taunts the Kingsguard: why are you not with your queen and prince Viserys. Willem Darry fled to Dragonstone.

Oswell Whent says: Willem Darry is a good man.

Hightower says that Darry is not one of the Kingsguard, "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Arthur Dayne and he donnes his helm.

Well, this can be read in multiple ways, but I think it has no direct reference to Darry. It concerns the oath of members of the Kingsguard, which Willem was not.

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1. Ned has every reason to think that Viserys is the king. By pointing out that Willem Darry is not a Kingsguard, the three guys at the Tower are hinting that Viserys ISN'T the king.

I'm sorry if you have answered this one before: then why does Ned name Viserys Prince Viserys? Why would he imply it beneath the lines? Wouldn't he, being Ned Stark, say plainly: "why the h*lll aren't you three with king Viserys?

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Hmm ... re-read that part in Eddard X.

I'm still inclined to think it is not plain and straight forward.

Ned taunts the Kingsguard: why are you not with your queen and prince Viserys. Willem Darry fled to Dragonstone.

Oswell Whent says: Willem Darry is a good man.

Hightower says that Darry is not one of the Kingsguard, "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Arthur Dayne and he donnes his helm.

Well, this can be read in multiple ways, but I think it has no direct reference to Darry. It concerns the oath of members of the Kingsguard, which Willem was not.

Considering that it's said in pretty much direct proximity to the Darry question, I don't see how it's not at least somewhat in reference to Darry hightailing it to Dragonstone, under orders or not. Consider this: Why would Aerys send Darry and not a Kingsguard? Might it be because that would give the psychological impression of a retreat?

I'm sorry if you have answered this one before: then why does Ned name Viserys Prince Viserys? Why would he imply it beneath the lines? Wouldn't he, being Ned Stark, say plainly: "why the h*lll aren't you three with king Viserys?

Any number of reasons. Viserys was still Prince Viserys when they left. Ned could be goading them to confess one way or the other if Viserys is the king, luring them into giving information.

Mostly, Ned would have by that time sworn fealty to Robert and as such would not have referred to Viserys as the king anyway.

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Considering that it's said in pretty much direct proximity to the Darry question, I don't see how it's not at least somewhat in reference to Darry hightailing it to Dragonstone, under orders or not. Consider this: Why would Aerys send Darry and not a Kingsguard? Might it be because that would give the psychological impression of a retreat?

Refraining from what Aerys wanted or not, I think that a member of the kingsguard, who says they won't flee now as they have not not fled before, would refer to a situation where the kingsguard would hold their position.

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Aerys was mad. Paranoia was the order ofthe day. He sent his pregnant wife and son to Dragonstone, but not his daughter in law and her babes, because he wanted to keep Elia as a hostage against Leuwin (sic) Martell.

AIUI, he kept some KG with him, and sent some with Rhaegar to the Trident. While I agree there's missing data about where all the KG were, it's reasonable to assume he sent for them, or sent them away, based on how he felt week-to-week.

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This is how I read it, no absulute truth claimed here.

I think when Ned says that Willem Darry fled to Dragonstone, he could mean that Darry fled from the besieged Kings Landing. I don't think Ned wants to say here that Darry was not honorable, he just fled a city where there were enemies at the gate.

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Refraining from what Aerys wanted or not, I think that a member of the kingsguard, who says they won't flee now as they have not not fled before, would refer to a situation where the kingsguard would hold their position.

... What are you even trying to argue here? I'm honestly not sure.

It seems like they're saying that what Willem Darry did was NOT A KINGSGUARD'S JOB because the Kingsguard do not flee. Ned says, why aren't you on Dragonstone with Darry? They say, Darry's a good man, but not a Kingsguard and the Kingsguard do not flee. They didn't flee then -- running to Dragonstone with Rhaella and Viserys -- and they're not fleeing now -- leaving the Tower.

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