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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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Hello all. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I count myself a believer in R + L = J, the evidence, though subtle, is seemingly overwhelming. But I do have an issue with part of the story that falls in line with the current discussion.

I'm certain this has been brought up elsewhere, and feel free to point it out to me, but I find the biggest "hole" in the R+L=J story to be the Kingsguard, particularly why so many of them are at the TOJ. After the Trident, Rhaegar is dead, but Aerys is still alive, and so is Viscerys. What has always bugged me is why nearly half the Kingsguard, including the Lord Commander, are not with the King at a time when he is clearly in grave mortal danger. If these men are as honorable as Ned makes them out to be, their rightful place is with Aerys, or at the very least Viscerys following Aerys' death. Aerys is still alive after Rhaegar is dead, making whatever offspring Rhaegar produced at most third in line for the throne behind Aerys and Viscerys.

I can be pursuaded that Arthur Dayne may have stayed at the TOJ because he was Rhaegar's closest friend, but Oswell and particularly Hightower should have been with the rightful King if they truly believed that the Kingsguard does not flee. To leave Aerys with at most 3 bodyguards, one of whom is I believe 17 at the time seems irresponsible at the least and dishonorable.

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I'm certain this has been brought up elsewhere, and feel free to point it out to me, but I find the biggest "hole" in the R+L=J story to be the Kingsguard, particularly why so many of them are at the TOJ. After the Trident, Rhaegar is dead, but Aerys is still alive, and so is Viscerys. What has always bugged me is why nearly half the Kingsguard, including the Lord Commander, are not with the King at a time when he is clearly in grave mortal danger. If these men are as honorable as Ned makes them out to be, their rightful place is with Aerys, or at the very least Viscerys following Aerys' death. Aerys is still alive after Rhaegar is dead, making whatever offspring Rhaegar produced at most third in line for the throne behind Aerys and Viscerys.

The thinking is that Jon is legitimate, therefore, he'd be in line ahead of Viserys. That's why the three guys are at the Tower and not on Dragonstone after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are dead.

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Hi Superdupe, welcome here. One of the theories is that the kingsguard who were in Dorne guarded Lyanna and her baby, who was the child born out of a polygamous marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

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Until then I find 'out of the box'; thinking and reasoning on some of the threads very stimulating.

This particular thread for instance would be boring to me if it only featured the accepted theory.

Happily and luckily there are new posters who join the discussion. Some of them inevitably will say things that are already discussed.

Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I came to this forum to get acquainted with new theories as well as being curious if what I thought out myself would be confirmed. So I enjoy reading this happening to other posters :drunk:

About the 'out of the box' thinking. This can really help, if one feels stuck. And it is fun to do.

Some of the hinges of the theory are:

- Rhaegar crowned Lyanna at the tourney of Harrenhal as the queen of love and beauty and this was a meaningful signal. There the whole thing started.

- Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy when the fight with the Kingsguard took place.

- There can be no other explanations for three of the Kingsguard being in the south than guarding the king.

- Ned loved Lyanna so much that he would promise her anything, even if this would cause harm to himself, betrayed his best friend, constituted treason, implicated lying to his wife and to Lyanna's child.

- Rhaegar wanted to create a breeding line for Aegon..

It helped me to try if questioning these assumptions will affect the theory :cool4:

FanTasy - thanks for that post. Since I am relatively new to this forum, I appreciate when more "seasoned" posters such as yourself welcome comments and discussion by the newbies. Obviously, some of our thoughts are repetitive. But encouragement of "out of the box" thinking is fun and is more productive than complaints about why particular topics are still being discussed.

I believe that R+L=J is true. I have tried to come up with ways to discredit it and I can't. Nonetheless, I still have questions:

- Why did they run off: true love? fulfillment of a prophecy? (I don't particularly like either of these explanations...)

- The presence of the KG at the ToJ is easily explained: protecting the king. We know of the conversation between Ned and the KG and come to this conclusion. But why has no one else ever questioned why these 3 KG were not at the Trident or KL? And what is the "publicly accepted" explanation for their death? Could Aerys have known what Rhaegar was doing at the ToJ?

- How did Ned know Lyanna's wherabouts? Sure, Ashara could have told him but, as it was mentioned above, how and when did she get word to him? What did Ned suspect about the circumstances at the ToJ?

In Ned's dream, there is an interesting remark made by Ser Arthur Dayne. When Ser Gerold Hightower points out that 'The Kingsguard does not flee', Ser Arthur says 'Then or now'.

Anybody have any ideas on what the 'then' in Ser Arthur's remark might mean?

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys.

I thought you might have sailed with him.” “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

I don't think it refers to one incident. I think it refers to their commitment to their oath - they do not flee for any reason, even when the odds are overwhelming against them.

and Willem Darry was not a member of the Kingsguard. Am I wrong here? I think the "then or now" comment refers to the KG only.

Yes, Jonothor Darry was a member of the KG, not Willem.

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I remember reading recently that Aerys ordered Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone. It must have been in ASOS, probably in one of Jaime's p.o.v. In what sense was Darry running?

Ah ... found it. It's in ASOS Jaime V

Jaime tells Brienne that after Rhaegar was killed at the Trident:

"When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with prince Viserys".

Jaime doesn't tell who accompanied the queen and prince.

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The "then or now" thing seems to reference Willem Darry, who was not a Kingsguard, running to Dragonstone with Rhaella and Viserys.

Makes sense, I guess rereads tend to have this affect where one sees hidden meanings in every other sentence.

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Okay, I guess I just assumed that, as Rhaegar died first, the line of succession would pass to Viscerys, and any offspring of Rhaegar would be in line behind Viscerys, seeing as how Viscerys was the son of the current King, who was still alive (albeit not for long) after the Trident.

Also, and I believe this has been brought up elsewhere as well, the Kingsguard had no way of knowing what gender Rhaegar's child would be. Even assuming that the baby would theoretically be next in line, they are risking alot assuming it will be a boy.

Maybe someone can confirm the way succession worked for the Targaryens for me? I thought it was always through the eldest son, meaning Rhaegar until he died, and then moving to Viscerys.

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Maybe someone can confirm the way succession worked for the Targaryens for me? I thought it was always through the eldest son, meaning Rhaegar until he died, and then moving to Viscerys.

No, the next heir apparent would be the eldest son of the heir apparent.

In this case: Rhaegar and Aegon.

So, if Rhaegar died, even before he was king himself, Aegon was the heir apparent.

If Aegon is indeed dead (which some believe, some don't), Viserys would be heir.

If Jon is born out of a legitimate marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, his claim would be stronger than Viserys' claim.

A son goes before a brother.

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Okay, I guess I just assumed that, as Rhaegar died first, the line of succession would pass to Viscerys, and any offspring of Rhaegar would be in line behind Viscerys, seeing as how Viscerys was the son of the current King, who was still alive (albeit not for long) after the Trident.

Also, and I believe this has been brought up elsewhere as well, the Kingsguard had no way of knowing what gender Rhaegar's child would be. Even assuming that the baby would theoretically be next in line, they are risking alot assuming it will be a boy.

Maybe someone can confirm the way succession worked for the Targaryens for me? I thought it was always through the eldest son, meaning Rhaegar until he died, and then moving to Viscerys.

Line of succession, as per my understanding -

Aerys-Eldest son(Rhaegar)-Eldest son of eldest son(Aegon)-Younger son of eldest son(Jon?)-Younger son(Viserys)-Daughter of eldest son(Rhaenys)-Daughter(Daenerys)

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Okay, I guess I just assumed that, as Rhaegar died first, the line of succession would pass to Viscerys, and any offspring of Rhaegar would be in line behind Viscerys, seeing as how Viscerys was the son of the current King, who was still alive (albeit not for long) after the Trident.

Also, and I believe this has been brought up elsewhere as well, the Kingsguard had no way of knowing what gender Rhaegar's child would be. Even assuming that the baby would theoretically be next in line, they are risking alot assuming it will be a boy.

Maybe someone can confirm the way succession worked for the Targaryens for me? I thought it was always through the eldest son, meaning Rhaegar until he died, and then moving to Viscerys.

Nope. It's king -> king's oldest son -> king's oldest son's oldest son.

It's the same in most monarchies. If Prince Charles dies before Queen Elizabeth II, Prince William is next in line, not Prince Andrew.

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Line of succession, as per my understanding -

Aerys-Eldest son(Rhaegar)-Eldest son of eldest son(Aegon)-Younger son of eldest son(Jon?)-Younger son(Viserys)-Daughter of eldest son(Rhaenys)-Daughter(Daenerys)

Quite! Dany's right to the throne could be questioned, though. Stannis and - when going way back in time - a male Blackfyre descendant would hold a stronger claim if a woman was not accepted to rule in her own right.

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Quite! Dany's right to the throne could be questioned, though. Stannis and - when going way back in time - a male Blackfyre descendant would hold a stronger claim if a woman was not accepted to rule in her own right.

Doran Martell would also be in line. I believe "all possible male claimants" means all of them.

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Excellent, thanks for clearing that up for me everyone. I still feel like at the very least Hightower should have been with the king seeing as he was Lord Commander, and it still seems like they were gambling pretty heavily on the baby being male, but at least their presence at the TOJ is more justified.

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Rhaegar may have believed his child by Lyanna had more significance than simply being the heir to the throne (i.e. The Prince Who Was Promised), and that's why it recieved more protection than any other member of the royal family (including Aerys himself).

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Excellent, thanks for clearing that up for me everyone. I still feel like at the very least Hightower should have been with the king seeing as he was Lord Commander, and it still seems like they were gambling pretty heavily on the baby being male, but at least their presence at the TOJ is more justified.

Quite, That there were three Kingsguard, including the Lord Commander, is something that always bugged me, as is the question who ordered them there. Before ADWD I would embrace without a shadow of a doubt the theory that there can be only one explanation: Baby Jon as issue of Rhaegar out of a polygamous marriage.

We will need more information to be sure, I guess.

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Rhaegar may have believed his child by Lyanna had more significance than simply being the heir to the throne (i.e. The Prince Who Was Promised), and that's why it recieved more protection than any other member of the royal family (including Aerys himself).

Possibly. But one would think that if his goal was to re-create the bloodline of Aegon I, Rhaegar would find his son Aegon the most valuable asset. He could always find another woman to give him a Visenya. No, I think in this thinking of re-creating the bloodline Rhaegar would find Aegon's safety more important than the safety of the third child he wanted to produce.

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Yes, of course. I think Ned was straightforward here. I doubt he was playing word games.

I think the only thing that isn't a mystery about the TOJ is the conversation everyone there knew what the other party was doing there. And there wasn't really anything cryptic about what either was saying. It's everything that immediately proceeds the fighting that is so mysterious.

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@Fan Tasy

I was thining about the meaning of Lyanna´s child to Rhaegar a lot. According to Maester Aemon started to believe that Aegon might be tPtwP when a comet was sighted at Aegons conception, so that he named his first daughter after the youngest of the original Targaryen three is explained, he believed he was tPtwP at that time. We now can only speculate what changed, maybe Lyanna added the myth and legends of the North to the mix.

I saw you posing a question about the KG in another thread. LC Hightower was in KL at the execution of Brandon Stark, he definitly was not at KL when it was sacked. I now think it likely that he picked up Rhaegar when he was joining the fight against Robert and was ordered to return to Lyanna asap.

Thank you Apple Martini for explaining the line of heritage. I was didn´t realise that, since I´m really ignorant about monarchies. It makes perfect sense Prince of Dragonstone = Prince of Wales.

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I think the only thing that isn't a mystery about the TOJ is the conversation everyone there knew what the other party was doing there. And there wasn't really anything cryptic about what either was saying. It's everything that immediately proceeds the fighting that is so mysterious.

Let me elaborate. Ned knew they were there for an important reason maybe not the exact reason. The back and forth itself was pretty straightforward and explainable.

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