R+L=J v.20

[Alia of the knife]

I agree, Alia of the Knife. I've always gotten this slightly feminine vibe from Rhaegar and an arya/tomboyish vibe from Lyanna. Maybe that's why it worked out? haha

And on that note, I could also feel sorry for Rhaegar, lol.

Imagine sensative R being cooped up with a cranky, pregnant Lyanna who can no longer ride her beloved horse. :o

[Fire_Kiss]

Is it possible that Rhaegar knew Varys switched (or had the backup plan of switching) the children?

I "know" from various other fantasy media that royalty had body doubles. (Queen Amidala is the first one I can call to mind) So it doesn't seem that far fetched.

IIRC, wasn't Rhaenella (is that her name?) in a different spot in KL than Aegon and Elia? If so, perhaps Varys couldn't switch her in time.

[Ygrain]

Is it possible that Rhaegar knew Varys switched (or had the backup plan of switching) the children?

I "know" from various other fantasy media that royalty had body doubles. (Queen Amidala is the first one I can call to mind) So it doesn't seem that far fetched.

IIRC, wasn't Rhaenella (is that her name?) in a different spot in KL than Aegon and Elia? If so, perhaps Varys couldn't switch her in time.

It seems that Westerosi use doubles only occasionally (Myrcella and her cousin, or the man in Roose's armour during his travel north), otherwise, there are no mentions I can think of.

Rhaenys was in the same palace, in another room.

[FanTasy]

Is it possible that Rhaegar knew Varys switched (or had the backup plan of switching) the children?

I "know" from various other fantasy media that royalty had body doubles. (Queen Amidala is the first one I can call to mind) So it doesn't seem that far fetched.

IIRC, wasn't Rhaenella (is that her name?) in a different spot in KL than Aegon and Elia? If so, perhaps Varys couldn't switch her in time.

I think someone had and if it was not Rhaegar my guess would be a plot of the Martells.

Aerys wanted to keep Elia and Aegon as hostages.

If Aerys was mad as a hatter the Dornish would know this as well as the rest of the court.

They had a Martell in the Kingsguard, no doubt to keep close watch over Elia and her children.

Aerys sending him off to Dorne would be a red flag.

I think it would be stupid for the Martells not trying to get their grip on the Iron Throne out of Kings Landing.

Maybe they knew of how valuable Aegon was to Rhaegar for re-creating the bloodline.

So Aegon would be a very valuable pawn for Dorne, besides being Elia's child.

ETA Sorry, this is a wee off topic.

[Screaming Knight]

Is it possible that Rhaegar knew Varys switched (or had the backup plan of switching) the children?

I "know" from various other fantasy media that royalty had body doubles. (Queen Amidala is the first one I can call to mind) So it doesn't seem that far fetched.

IIRC, wasn't Rhaenella (is that her name?) in a different spot in KL than Aegon and Elia? If so, perhaps Varys couldn't switch her in time.

Rhaegar was killed prior to the sack of KL. I'm sure he entrusted someone with the safety of his children although the castellan was debating turning them over to the rebels. But I think smuggling them away from kind of last minute thinking on varys part because he didn't have time to save rhaenys. Also aegon was an infant so he was easier switched. I don't believe rhaegar lived long enough to know what happened at KL.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

R+L=J threads are so extensive that it’s far too daunting a task to read through them all. So apologies if this has been done. The time lapse between the Tourney at Harrenhal and Brandon Stark riding to KL has only recently come to my attention. I know there aren’t exact dates. But it’s believed to have been 12 months or so.

That’s a very long time. So did i)Rhaegar crown Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty and then let the whole thing lie for a year? Or ii) keep up some kind or relationship through visits and/or letters in secret for all that time?

If it’s i) then what event sparked the decision to seek out Lyanna?

If it’s ii) then how was it kept secret? And I’ve got to say if there was a secret relationship for a year then keeping it a secret had pretty dire consequences for Lyanna’s brother and father.

[Dragonfish]

Rhaegar was killed prior to the sack of KL. I'm sure he entrusted someone with the safety of his children although the castellan was debating turning them over to the rebels.

That was the castellan on Dragonstone, and he was plotting to deliver Dany and Viserys to the rebels, not Rhaegar's children (unless you're referring to something from the books I'm forgetting).

But I think smuggling them away from kind of last minute thinking on varys part because he didn't have time to save rhaenys. Also aegon was an infant so he was easier switched. I don't believe rhaegar lived long enough to know what happened at KL.

Are we certain the baby switch was a last minute thing? It always seemed to me that buying an actual child and switching him with the infant prince required a certain degree of foresight and planning.

Mind you, I don't truly believe any switch took place at all. But if it did, I don't see any indication that it was performed at the last minute.

[Lady Octarina]

R+L=J threads are so extensive that it’s far too daunting a task to read through them all. So apologies if this has been done. The time lapse between the Tourney at Harrenhal and Brandon Stark riding to KL has only recently come to my attention. I know there aren’t exact dates. But it’s believed to have been 12 months or so.

That’s a very long time. So did i)Rhaegar crown Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty and then let the whole thing lie for a year? Or ii) keep up some kind or relationship through visits and/or letters in secret for all that time?

If it’s i) then what event sparked the decision to seek out Lyanna?

If it’s ii) then how was it kept secret? And I’ve got to say if there was a secret relationship for a year then keeping it a secret had pretty dire consequences for Lyanna’s brother and father.

It's unlikely they could have sent letters to one another, since letters pass through the hands of the resident Maester, and we have no reason to believe the Maester in Winterfell wouldn't warn Lord Rickard about it (unless we elaborate the Citadel-conspiracy theory a little more :laugh: ). We have no information on what went on those 12 months - my personal guess is that Lyanna was either out riding or on some kind of travel South, Rhaegar knew about it and took her (because I really find it more likely to believe he was the one to make the arrangements and she knew nothing about it, since I don't see how she could know - unless someone from a nearby House could carry his messages to her?). Either way, I think Benjen was into it, and that he'll be the one to tell us exactly what happened when she disappeared; come on, Howland Reed can't be the one to give us all the explanations!

Anyway, arriving a little late on the "then or now" discussion, I think the KG (Dayne?) could be referring exactly to the event in which they took Lyanna to the unknown location. If Brandon knew it was Rhaegar who took her, that means someone saw that happening and reported back to him. Not necessarily Benjen, but it could be him. And he would have told Eddard at some point. There probably was some confrontation with the Stark men who might have been escorting Lyanna (because, really, she was wild, wouldn't want them, but I doubt Lord Rickard let her roam around on her own). And both the KG at the ToJ and Ned would know about that event.

But of course, the "then and now" could mean nothing as well and we're simply seeing too much where there is nothing to be analyzed, but I thin that, if there is anything to it, the Lyanna "abduction" is the only reasonable explanation.

[Alia of the knife]

On Rhaegar knowing, or planning a baby switch.

It's possible that he may have had a contingency plan in place, but I don't think he foresaw his own death, and clearly planned on being victorious, so in that light, I don't think he did.

Only if he'd had any doubt he wouldn't live would I think, he'd plan something like that, but again, we get no indication that he had those doubts.

I personally don't believe there was a baby switch for that reason, and tend to think Aegon is not Rhaegars son, and IMHO think he's actually a Blackfyre via Varys and Illyrio.

[Alia of the knife]

It's unlikely they could have sent letters to one another, since letters pass through the hands of the resident Maester, and we have no reason to believe the Maester in Winterfell wouldn't warn Lord Rickard about it (unless we elaborate the Citadel-conspiracy theory a little more :laugh: ). We have no information on what went on those 12 months - my personal guess is that Lyanna was either out riding or on some kind of travel South, Rhaegar knew about it and took her (because I really find it more likely to believe he was the one to make the arrangements and she knew nothing about it, since I don't see how she could know - unless someone from a nearby House could carry his messages to her?). Either way, I think Benjen was into it, and that he'll be the one to tell us exactly what happened when she disappeared; come on, Howland Reed can't be the one to give us all the explanations!

Anyway, arriving a little late on the "then or now" discussion, I think the KG (Dayne?) could be referring exactly to the event in which they took Lyanna to the unknown location. If Brandon knew it was Rhaegar who took her, that means someone saw that happening and reported back to him. Not necessarily Benjen, but it could be him. And he would have told Eddard at some point. There probably was some confrontation with the Stark men who might have been escorting Lyanna (because, really, she was wild, wouldn't want them, but I doubt Lord Rickard let her roam around on her own). And both the KG at the ToJ and Ned would know about that event.

But of course, the "then and now" could mean nothing as well and we're simply seeing too much where there is nothing to be analyzed, but I thin that, if there is anything to it, the Lyanna "abduction" is the only reasonable explanation.

While I tend to think that Theons "seeing" the "sad, slim girl, (Lyanna) wearing a crown of roses and white gown spattered with gore," is a nod to her giving birth, it could also mean a vision of her being taken.

The way it reads, with the "spatter," sounds as if what is on her gown was flung there as if from bloody swords, or even a blood-soaked ground.

Whether she was a wild girl, or not, she was too highborn a commodity for her family to be roaming about unescorted.

She may not have liked having an escort, or guards, but even she couldn't do anything about it.

It also said she was taken at swordpoint, so maybe there was a conflict between her Fathers men and Prince Rhaegars, and she got caught in the middle of it.

[Smokefall]

R+L=J threads are so extensive that it’s far too daunting a task to read through them all. So apologies if this has been done. The time lapse between the Tourney at Harrenhal and Brandon Stark riding to KL has only recently come to my attention. I know there aren’t exact dates. But it’s believed to have been 12 months or so.

That’s a very long time. So did i)Rhaegar crown Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty and then let the whole thing lie for a year? Or ii) keep up some kind or relationship through visits and/or letters in secret for all that time?

If it’s i) then what event sparked the decision to seek out Lyanna?

If it’s ii) then how was it kept secret? And I’ve got to say if there was a secret relationship for a year then keeping it a secret had pretty dire consequences for Lyanna’s brother and father.

I've come to suspect Rhaegar found out that Aegon wasn't his baby. I think Elia had a stillborn child, and possibly procured Aegon from Ashara Dayne (even though the timeline hasn't been conclusively established). Thia is all pure speculation, but it could help explain some of Rhaegar's actions: his sudden seeking out of Lyanna, his apparent indifference to the fate of his family in King's Landing. All things point to Jon being the true heir.

Maybe YG was switched by Varys, though he's been fake since the get-go.

[Lady Octarina]

While I tend to think that Theons "seeing" the "sad, slim girl, (Lyanna) wearing a crown of roses and white gown spattered with gore," is a nod to her giving birth, it could also mean a vision of her being taken.

The way it reads, with the "spatter," sounds as if what is on her gown was flung there as if from bloody swords, or even a blood-soaked ground.

I'm sorry, but what passage are you referring to, exactly? (my memory and me, such a lovely relationship...)

[Screaming Knight]

That was the castellan on Dragonstone, and he was plotting to deliver Dany and Viserys to the rebels, not Rhaegar's children (unless you're referring to something from the books I'm forgetting).

Are we certain the baby switch was a last minute thing? It always seemed to me that buying an actual child and switching him with the infant prince required a certain degree of foresight and planning.

Mind you, I don't truly believe any switch took place at all. But if it did, I don't see any indication that it was performed at the last minute.

Your right I mixed up the situations. I think it's pretty certain that a switch was made. Why would varys lie to kevan right before he killed him. And I can't really be certain when anything was planned or not because it's never written one way or the other but basing it on the actual events and not the ones I mixed up it would be more likely that varys had it set up.

[Screaming Knight]

I've come to suspect Rhaegar found out that Aegon wasn't his baby. I think Elia had a stillborn child, and possibly procured Aegon from Ashara Dayne (even though the timeline hasn't been conclusively established). Thia is all pure speculation, but it could help explain some of Rhaegar's actions: his sudden seeking out of Lyanna, his apparent indifference to the fate of his family in King's Landing. All things point to Jon being the true heir.

Maybe YG was switched by Varys, though he's been fake since the get-go.

Haha I've never considered that and even being speculation it doesn't seem unlikely. Just another possible scenario for Ashara committing suicide. Is one of the starks the father?

Also am I missing something obvious in the books that makes people doubt aegon's authenticity.

[Dragonfish]

I think it's pretty certain that a switch was made. Why would varys lie to kevan right before he killed him.

There are multiple explanations for this, all of which have been laid out multiple times in multiple Aegon threads.

[Screaming Knight]

Are any laid out in the books? I just think reasons laid out in the threads are too thin.

[Screaming Knight]

I know anything is possible in these books but it was hinted early on that he was alive turned out that he was. Confirmed over and over and I know not to trust varys as far as you can throw him but why lie to a dyin man?

[Dragonfish]

I know anything is possible in these books but it was hinted early on that he was alive turned out that he was.

It was also hinted in the house of the undying that we'd see a fake dragon. And now here he is (IMO).

Confirmed over and over and I know not to trust varys as far as you can throw him but why lie to a dyin man?

Where exactly does he lie?

[Screaming Knight]

It was also hinted in the house of the undying that we'd see a fake dragon. And now here he is (IMO).

Where exactly does he lie?

He doesn't lie. That's my point. Why would varys tell kevan while he was dying that aegon was alive and training to rule. Where is the gain in lying about him at that point?

[Lady Blackfyre]

Confirmed over and over and I know not to trust varys as far as you can throw him but why lie to a dyin man?

They were not alone in the room, for one.