Alia of the knife Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I'm sorry, but what passage are you referring to, exactly? (my memory and me, such a lovely relationship...)I've considered counseling for mine and my memory's relationship :P Here it goes, it's from "Clash of Kings," a Theon chapter, I believe right after he took Winterfell. (pg.809 in the paperback)....."Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup, he saw he was dining with the dead."Further down in the chapter:"But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had only seen in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and white gown, spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her Brother Brandon stood beside her, and their Father Lord Rickard just behind...."As I said, it's most likely an allusion to a difficult childbirth, but because of the wording "spattered", I picture her standing as her gown is being covered.Perhaps just a different perception of the words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 He doesn't lie. That's my point. Why would varys tell kevan while he was dying that aegon was alive and training to rule. Where is the gain in lying about him at that point?It's strange, but what I got from that passage is "Aegon" as a receptacle for Varys political ideals, and if he is a Blackfyre he would not want to see a trueborn Targaryen such as Rhaegar/Elias son sit the throne.(Remember, Varys was on a whispering campaign against Rhaegar, as well as his Mother, sewing seeds of dissention, or worsening them between Rhaegar, Rhaella and Aerys).For whatever reason, I read that as somewhat impersonal, almost describing "Aegon" as a means to an end.Refresh my memory, but did Varys actually call him Rhaegars son?(I honestly don't remember).As far as Elia having a stillborn and switching it out, that is a big thing to try and keep a secret, and servants gossip is notorious.I think what propelled Rhaegar is the knowledge that Elia "would bear him no more children," and he needed another heir/third head ,that and he also happened to be in love with Lyanna.As for Asharas child, it most likely was Brandon, not Ned, who fathered her child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 They were not alone in the room, for one.Is there a for two? That doesn't exactly convince me. I'm sure vary's little birds aren't much of a threat to him if they knew one way or the other. Nothing in the books convinces me and am curious what exactly makes people believe that he's fake. Where I believe he is real because i read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfyre Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 In fact, Varys could very well be telling the truth. As far as I know, there's absolutely nothing in the books that proves Aegon to be a fake. It's all just speculation. I was just providing a reason why Varys could have lied. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 It's strange, but what I got from that passage is "Aegon" as a receptacle for Varys ideals.For whatever reason, I read that as somewhat impersonal, almost describing "Aegon" as a means to an end.Refresh my memory, but did Varys actually call him Rhaegars son?(I honestly don't remember).As far as Elia having a stillborn and switching it out, that is a big thing to try an keep a secret, and servants gossip is notorious.I think what propelled Rhaegar is the knowledge that Elia "would bear him no more children," and he needed another heir/third head ,that and he also happened to be in love with Lyanna.As for Asharas child, it most likely was Brandon, not Ned, who fathered her child.I don't have access to my copy ADWD. He didn't call him rhaegars son. He calls him aegon. I don't think he's the fake dragon and I think he's real. I don't think there is even anything that hints at him being fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfyre Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 As for what makes people believe he's fake, I suggest taking a look at this thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhageion Bonaryen Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Anyone that thinks that Varys is lying is purely speculating. Other than the post by gillybarathestark (think the thread is "the spider") talking about a possible feud between varys and the lannisters (eluding to the the possibly that twin had varys castrated or had the mountain do it) there is no connection between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I don't have access to my copy ADWD. He didn't call him rhaegars son. He calls him aegon. I don't think he's the fake dragon and I think he's real. I don't think there is even anything that hints at him being fake.Okay, thanks for answering my question. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 ive read all of the theories and im not trying to get off topic, this was just where the course of the discussion took us. Out of all the conspiracy theories(this specific one being a theory wrapped in a theory)i feel this holds the least water. I think Aegon being alive was the big reveal, not a fake aegon being alive. There is just a bunch of reasons why not and not a bunch of reasons why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Okay, thanks for answering my question. :)No problem. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Anyone that thinks that Varys is lying is purely speculating. Other than the post by gillybarathestark (think the thread is "the spider") talking about a possible feud between varys and the lannisters (eluding to the the possibly that twin had varys castrated or had the mountain do it) there is no connection between the two.Just checked out "the spider". Definitley some food for thought in that thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhageion Bonaryen Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Okay, thanks for answering my question. :)No problem. ;)Get a room you two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Get a room you two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 He doesn't lie. That's my point. Why would varys tell kevan while he was dying that aegon was alive and training to rule. Where is the gain in lying about him at that point?Let me re-phrase: where in this scene would Varys be lying, assuming Aegon is fake? The answer is nowhere. He never once claims that Aegon is Rhaegar's son. He only claims that "he's here."There are other arguments as well, including LadyBlackfyre's point that Varys is not actually alone in the room. Another argument would be that Varys is following the advice Littlefinger gives to Sansa: upholding the "lie" even when he seemingly has no reason to. Any one of these is sufficient, I think.As far as evidence for the whole theory goes, most of it is based on the "mummer's dragon" and "slayer of lies" prophecies from the HotU, as well as Moqorro's prophecy, which mentions the existence of one or more false dragon(s). There's also another nifty bit of evidence for those who believe Aegon is Blackfyre: in AFFC, Septon Meribald mentions that an old black iron dragon sign hanging from an inn was thrown into the river, and when it washed ashore it had rusted red. This potentially foreshadows a Blackfyre (black dragon) returning to Westeros in the guise of a Targaryen (red dragon).That is all I will say on the subject, as I don't wish to derail the thread any further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokefall Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 ^ Great summary. Just one further bit of evidence: Jon being hinted at as the real king. Mormont's raven (Bloodraven? Bran?) squawking "King!" etc.I've just noticed that Ned never mentions Aegon (or Rhaenys) to the Kingsguard in his TOJ scene: only Aerys, Rhaegar and Viserys. Strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Let me re-phrase: where in this scene would Varys be lying, assuming Aegon is fake? The answer is nowhere. He never once claims that Aegon is Rhaegar's son. He only claims that "he's here."There are other arguments as well, including LadyBlackfyre's point that Varys is not actually alone in the room. Another argument would be that Varys is following the advice Littlefinger gives to Sansa: upholding the "lie" even when he seemingly has no reason to. Any one of these is sufficient, I think.As far as evidence for the whole theory goes, most of it is based on the "mummer's dragon" and "slayer of lies" prophecies from the HotU, as well as Moqorro's prophecy, which mentions the existence of one or more false dragon(s). There's also another nifty bit of evidence for those who believe Aegon is Blackfyre: in AFFC, Septon Meribald mentions that an old black iron dragon sign hanging from an inn was thrown into the river, and when it washed ashore it had rusted red. This potentially foreshadows a Blackfyre (black dragon) returning to Westeros in the guise of a Targaryen (red dragon).That is all I will say on the subject, as I don't wish to derail the thread any further.This isn't at all sufficient to me at all. And this is where the course of the discussion took us. It doesn't stop anyone from writing in their point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 This isn't at all sufficient to me at all. And this is where the course of the discussion took us. It doesn't stop anyone from writing in their point.What would be sufficient? Dragonfish gave possible motives for Varys to lie, as well as good thematic evidence that Aegon is a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoheeks Bili Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 ^ Great summary. Just one further bit of evidence: Jon being hinted at as the real king. Mormont's raven (Bloodraven? Bran?) squawking "King!" etc.I've just noticed that Ned never mentions Aegon (or Rhaenys) to the Kingsguard in his TOJ scene: only Aerys, Rhaegar and Viserys. Strange He doesn't mention them because he's actually disgusted with what happened to him(or maybe who he thinks is him? ) Ned was there when the lannisters presented the dead bodies to Robert, and he wasn't happy about it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 He doesn't mention them because he's actually disgusted with what happened to him(or maybe who he thinks is him? )Ned was there when the lannisters presented the dead bodies to Robert, and he wasn't happy about it either.^ That. And also, mentioning a dead royal baby when you're pretty sure you're going to find a live royal baby and have to get through the guys who are protecting said live royal baby ... best not to mention poor Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 What would be sufficient? Dragonfish gave possible motives for Varys to lie, as well as good thematic evidence that Aegon is a fake.I read in the books he is alive. Varys tells a dying kevan he is alive. He looks like a targaryen talks like a targaryen(" your father's lands are beautiful" like father like son). I dont think he is the fake dragon and what is stated in the books really happened. The evidence to prove otherwise is not sufficient. I'm fine with getting back on R+L topic but this is where it ended up so as long as I'm getting posts debating what I think I will respond. Next book aegon may suffer severe burns from a fire and I will be wrong but nothing in the books has given me reason to think he is not who he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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