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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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He says that (an) Aegon is alive. If I say that Timmy is alive and Dragonfish says that Timmy is alive, we both agree that Timmy is alive, but does that mean we're talking about the same Timmy? Tell me where, in Kevan's epilogue, Varys positively identifies Aegon as Rhaegar and Elia's son Aegon. He does not.

Go look at my "Outright Lies vs. Subtle Truths" thread. Martin has a habit of speaking lies outright -- Wylla is Jon's mother, Davos Seaworth died at White Harbor -- while funneling us truths using clues and thematic symmetry and symbolism. If you take "Aegon is alive" at face value, you're feeding into Martin's strategy. "Aegon is fake" is never definitely confirmed outright, but nevertheless is left hanging in the open for people to figure out on their own.

Finally ...

Targaryens are !!!NOT!!! immune to fire.

Martin also has a way of lies being lies and truths being truths. Not everything is a conspiracy.

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Martin also has a way of lies being lies and truths being truths. Not everything is a conspiracy.

There are a few threads floating around about Aegon being fake that make several very compelling points. I don't know if you've read them yet but if you haven't I'd recommend them. If they don't give you doubts then nothing probably will.

Having said that, back on topic, yes?

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There are a few threads floating around about Aegon being fake that make several very compelling points. I don't know if you've read them yet but if you haven't I'd recommend them. If they don't give you doubts then nothing probably will.

Having said that, back on topic, yes?

This is on topic. Talking about jon's half brother.

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I had a beautiful terrier that I used to walk in the park all the time. The problem with terriers is that if another dog had a bone or a stick he wanted, he would go after it and just not let go.

Haha. Who is the terrier and who has the stick? Were on the 20th version of R+L=J here. It's a general thread it's going to veer off. Does anyone think Jon Connington knows the nature of Rhaegar and Lyannas relationship? I know he was in exile before the TOJ events but I wonder if he knew Rhaegars intentions. I'm sure he knew of his fascination with fulfilling a prophecy and given his fascination with Rhaegar he might be trying to posthumously honor him by attempting to fulfill said prophecy. I wonder if Rhaegar confided in anyone besides the KG about what happened and the circumstances at the TOJ.

in him or anyone his plans besides the KG at the TOJ and they shared his

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Jon Connington was at Harrenhal and, as his close friend, with Rhaegar for the year or so between that and Lyanna’s elopement/abduction. He was involved in the war until he made a mess of the Battle of the Bells. So if he doesn’t know of Jon’s parentage he will certainly know the truth of the “R+J” relationship and is the only living POV who does.

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Haha. Who is the terrier and who has the stick? Were on the 20th version of R+L=J here. It's a general thread it's going to veer off. Does anyone think Jon Connington knows the nature of Rhaegar and Lyannas relationship? I know he was in exile before the TOJ events but I wonder if he knew Rhaegars intentions. I'm sure he knew of his fascination with fulfilling a prophecy and given his fascination with Rhaegar he might be trying to posthumously honor him by attempting to fulfill said prophecy. I wonder if Rhaegar confided in anyone besides the KG about what happened and the circumstances at the TOJ.

in him or anyone his plans besides the KG at the TOJ and they shared his

I doubt he knows about Jon, but if he comes face to face with him, he might see something of Rhaegar in him. I don't think Connington was as close to Rhaegar as he makes us believe; the guy had a huge crush on the Dragonprince, who wasn't stupid, probably realized, which would have prevented him from discussing Lyanna with the Griff (unless he was a complete jerk, of course =P). I think Arthur Dayne was the only one who knew the whole story, so it will come from both Howland Reed and the remaining Daynes (Darkstar anyone? :cool4: )

Jon Connington was at Harrenhal and, as his close friend, with Rhaegar for the year or so between that and Lyanna’s elopement/abduction. He was involved in the war until he made a mess of the Battle of the Bells. So if he doesn’t know of Jon’s parentage he will certainly know the truth of the “R+J” relationship and is the only living POV who does.

I don't think we need to learn about Jon from a POV character. It would be revealing to much to the readers without letting the other characters hear anything, so... and there's nothing in his chapters pointing to his knowledge of Lyanna's relationship to Rhaegar, or Jon's existence, so...

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Jon Connington was at Harrenhal and, as his close friend, with Rhaegar for the year or so between that and Lyanna’s elopement/abduction. He was involved in the war until he made a mess of the Battle of the Bells. So if he doesn’t know of Jon’s parentage he will certainly know the truth of the “R+J” relationship and is the only living POV who does.

Not for nothing but I wonder if Rhaegar confided all that much about his love life with Jon Connington. For certain reasons I think Rhaegar might've avoided talking to him about his love life. Does anyone know if he has any chapters in TWOW?

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Jon Connington was at Harrenhal and, as his close friend, with Rhaegar for the year or so between that and Lyanna’s elopement/abduction. He was involved in the war until he made a mess of the Battle of the Bells. So if he doesn’t know of Jon’s parentage he will certainly know the truth of the “R+J” relationship and is the only living POV who does.

Not for nothing but I wonder if Rhaegar confided all that much about his love life with Jon Connington. For certain reasons I think Rhaegar might've avoided talking to him about his love life. Does anyone know if he has any chapters in TWOW?

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Not for nothing but I wonder if Rhaegar confided all that much about his love life with Jon Connington. For certain reasons I think Rhaegar might've avoided talking to him about his love life.

True. But if Rhaegar was conducting a "relationship" with Lyanna...not just a kidnap and rape...then surely he couldn't have kept it a secret from somebody in his inner circle for a whole year. JC may not know all the details but he must have had an awareness of there being a relationship if there was one.

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True. But if Rhaegar was conducting a "relationship" with Lyanna...not just a kidnap and rape...then surely he couldn't have kept it a secret from somebody in his inner circle for a whole year. JC may not know all the details but he must have had an awareness of there being a relationship if there was one.

Yea. You're right. Whether he was even told or not his feelings for lyanna were pretty much laid out for everyone to see. We need a Walls of the Tower of Joy chapter.

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True. But if Rhaegar was conducting a "relationship" with Lyanna...not just a kidnap and rape...then surely he couldn't have kept it a secret from somebody in his inner circle for a whole year. JC may not know all the details but he must have had an awareness of there being a relationship if there was one.

Jon Con was named Hand because Rhaegar was nowhere to be found, and he was sent into exile before Rhaegar returned to Kings Landing. So we can't really expect him to know what Rhaegar was thinking at any point after Lyanna was taken. Rhaegar may have confided how he felt about Lyanna before this but personally I doubt it. I think R&L fell in love at Harrenhal but had agreed to suppress their feelings and that when the kidnapping / elopement happened it was spur-of-the-moment.

Kinda related to this, I am a little confused about when Rhaegar returned from his mini-exile. I thought he came to KL (presumably straight from the ToJ with Lyanna), promised 'changes' to Jaime then rode straight out to the Trident - so he was in KL a week or two at the most. Yet I have seen several posts recently (not necessarily in this thread) saying that Rhaegar returned immediately after the Battle of the Bells which occurred earlier in the war. There is obviously a bit of contradiction there.

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Jon Con was named Hand because Rhaegar was nowhere to be found, and he was sent into exile before Rhaegar returned to Kings Landing. So we can't really expect him to know what Rhaegar was thinking at any point after Lyanna was taken. Rhaegar may have confided how he felt about Lyanna before this but personally I doubt it. I think R&L fell in love at Harrenhal but had agreed to suppress their feelings and that when the kidnapping / elopement happened it was spur-of-the-moment.

Kinda related to this, I am a little confused about when Rhaegar returned from his mini-exile. I thought he came to KL (presumably straight from the ToJ with Lyanna), promised 'changes' to Jaime then rode straight out to the Trident - so he was in KL a week or two at the most. Yet I have seen several posts recently (not necessarily in this thread) saying that Rhaegar returned immediately after the Battle of the Bells which occurred earlier in the war. There is obviously a bit of contradiction there.

I think his feelings were made clear to everyone at the tourney. Who knows maybe Jon knows everything and is Jon Snows namesake.
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This I actually don't know. I just suggest that the so-called Targ blood purity is pretty diluted now and, depending on how the Blackfyres have married, they could very well have more "Valyrian" blood (Daemon actually had "more" of it than Daeron). Whether this actually matters (e.g. dragon-taming), I can't say.

I think you have a good point though.

I read in another thread a couple of months ago how the trueborn Targs., really are somewhat diluted now, and not inbreeding as much as people imagine.

A poster went to great lengths to highlight most of the known trueborn Targs. family tree, coming up with grandmothers from other Houses even beyond the Martels.

Though the Targs. married primarily the Martels if a sister was not available, they did marry others.

I think there was a Hightower Queen.

The Targaryens, (whether they are legitimate, or Blackfyres) think that pure bloods produce the necessary elements to control the dragon, so the Blackfyres may absolutely exclusively marry, or mate amongst themselves, thinking they will eventually have one-up on their trueborn peers if the dragons return, and be better able to take the throne.

Or, outside controlling dragons, their act of keeping the blood pure is enough to prove they have the better claim.

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I think his feelings were made clear to everyone at the tourney. Who knows maybe Jon knows everything and is Jon Snows namesake.

I think that Martin said that Ned named Jon.

As far as JonCon goes, I think that he was not so much on the inner circle as we are led to think.

Given the reaction he had to Elia, and Rhaegar did not even love her, I doubt he would trust someone he knew to be in love with him with the knowledge of the woman he actually did love.

He probably would hate Lyanna and blame her for Rhaegars downfall.

I do think however, if there was anyone who may have tried to talk Rhaegar out of taking Lyanna, it would be him, and that could also caused a rift in their friendship.

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Hi all! New here. Been lurking a while.

I'm sure this has been mentioned at some point but in version 20 of this thread only the gods know when it was. But looking back at Ned's imprisonment and that conversation with Varys where he asks if Varys will deliver a letter if he put something in writing. Varys' reply was basically "I might depending on what it says". Now I wonder if Ned wrote this letter and Varys never delivered it (as I'm sure it had to do with Jon although I doubt he'd spill everything in a letter) or do you think he just never bothered to write it since there was no guarantee it would make it to who it was intended?

If we're thinking Aegon is a fakedy-fake-fake (which I personally do) and Varys is behind it in an effort to put a Blackfyre on the throne, do you think he may suspect something about Jon if Ned actually did write this letter? No, Ned wouldn't put R+L=J in a letter but he may have written something to make Varys suspect something. OR he could have just said "eff it if I'm going to the Wall, I can tell Jon everything then".

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I nuts?

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Hi all! New here. Been lurking a while.

I'm sure this has been mentioned at some point but in version 20 of this thread only the gods know when it was. But looking back at Ned's imprisonment and that conversation with Varys where he asks if Varys will deliver a letter if he put something in writing. Varys' reply was basically "I might depending on what it says". Now I wonder if Ned wrote this letter and Varys never delivered it (as I'm sure it had to do with Jon although I doubt he'd spill everything in a letter) or do you think he just never bothered to write it since there was no guarantee it would make it to who it was intended?

If we're thinking Aegon is a fakedy-fake-fake (which I personally do) and Varys is behind it in an effort to put a Blackfyre on the throne, do you think he may suspect something about Jon if Ned actually did write this letter? No, Ned wouldn't put R+L=J in a letter but he may have written something to make Varys suspect something. OR he could have just said "eff it if I'm going to the Wall, I can tell Jon everything then".

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I nuts?

I remember the part with the letter but I'm not sure if it was ever written. I want to say no, because 1. I don't think Ned would be dumb enough to write a letter knowing Varys would read it and 2. the letter hasn't surfaced anywhere.

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I think that Martin said that Ned named Jon.

As far as JonCon goes, I think that he was not so much on the inner circle as we are led to think.

Given the reaction he had to Elia, and Rhaegar did not even love her, I doubt he would trust someone he knew to be in love with him with the knowledge of the woman he actually did love.

He probably would hate Lyanna and blame her for Rhaegars downfall.

I do think however, if there was anyone who may have tried to talk Rhaegar out of taking Lyanna, it would be him, and that could also caused a rift in their friendship.

Yea. I did see Ned named him after Jon arryn. I think well get a better feel of whether exile did a number on Jon conningtons mental state a little bit in the next book. But I do hope he has some good unbiased insight into the rhaegar lyanna mystery.

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