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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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I haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories, though I have read some of the info from them on the Wiki. But when people bring Blackfyre stuff into R+L+J, Aegon, and greenseer threads it is always way over my head. I'm assuming alot of other ASOIAF readers haven't read the stories though, and it makes me think that GRRM wouldn't make their stories a part of the core ASOIAF storyline.

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Kinda related to this, I am a little confused about when Rhaegar returned from his mini-exile. I thought he came to KL (presumably straight from the ToJ with Lyanna), promised 'changes' to Jaime then rode straight out to the Trident - so he was in KL a week or two at the most. Yet I have seen several posts recently (not necessarily in this thread) saying that Rhaegar returned immediately after the Battle of the Bells which occurred earlier in the war. There is obviously a bit of contradiction there.

Jaime says in one of his chapters that Rhaegar returned soon after the Battle of the Bells. I don't recall anything in the books saying he returned soon before the Trident.

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I haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories, though I have read some of the info from them on the Wiki. But when people bring Blackfyre stuff into R+L+J, Aegon, and greenseer threads it is always way over my head. I'm assuming alot of other ASOIAF readers haven't read the stories though, and it makes me think that GRRM wouldn't make their stories a part of the core ASOIAF storyline.

I think that the D&E stories function like easter egg hunts for fans who are really "into it." That is to say, they provide a lot of clues and tips as to how to interpret the main story line — parts of them might even have foreshadowing — but reading them isn't necessary to enjoy the books.

When I say that the D&E stories have a lot of clues that Aegon might be fake, I'm saying that if you read them, you might have a better chance of picking up on the idea that Aegon is fake. But if/when Martin reveals that plot point, you won't have to have read the D&E stories to appreciate it. The story has multiple layers.

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I think his feelings were made clear to everyone at the tourney.

Were they? Perhaps, but there is no evidence of that.

All that happened at the tourney, was that he awarded Lyanna the crown that named her queen of Love and Beauty. And it surprised or shocked everyone. That doesn't mean he was declaring his love for her.

Heck, Whent's daughter was supposed to be named by her brothers and uncles if they held off all challengers. I'm sure no one was expecting incest if that happened. Naming someone Queen of Love and Beauty after winning a tournament need not, and often would not, be a declaration of love.

If he mooned over her at any dancing and feasting that night, then yes, that would surely be what everyone took away from that - 'Rhaegar is in love'.

But if he just carried on as normal, basically paying her no special attention beyond that necessary that night then everyone woudl simply come away with "what happened here, what does it mean?" questions rather than 'Rhaegar is in love' statements.

We don't know what else went down at this stage, how things happened and what people though at the time.

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:agree: I agree. Perhaps people would have just thought Elia displeased him somehow and let it go without any backing behavior to support "Rhaegar loves Lyanna". Crowning Lyanna doesn't have to be about Lyanna. That's not to say people wouldn't talk. They probably would have. But saying Rhaegar's feelings are clear is a bit overstated.

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Were they? Perhaps, but there is no evidence of that.

All that happened at the tourney, was that he awarded Lyanna the crown that named her queen of Love and Beauty. And it surprised or shocked everyone. That doesn't mean he was declaring his love for her.

Heck, Whent's daughter was supposed to be named by her brothers and uncles if they held off all challengers. I'm sure no one was expecting incest if that happened. Naming someone Queen of Love and Beauty after winning a tournament need not, and often would not, be a declaration of love.

If he mooned over her at any dancing and feasting that night, then yes, that would surely be what everyone took away from that - 'Rhaegar is in love'.

But if he just carried on as normal, basically paying her no special attention beyond that necessary that night then everyone woudl simply come away with "what happened here, what does it mean?" questions rather than 'Rhaegar is in love' statements.

We don't know what else went down at this stage, how things happened and what people though at the time.

Actually I think it was quite significant, quite a shocker that he gave the crown of Love and Beauty to Lyanna. Rhaegar was married, so he should have given it to his wife. After all, who else is he supposed to love except his wife?

If the winner was an unmarried knight, he could have given it to any unmarried woman. In the tradition of courtly love in medieval Europe, I think the unmarried knight could even give the crown to a married woman, because the tradition of courtly love was romantic. And an unmarried knight could wear the favour of a married woman and honour her if he won a tourney, because romantic love was platonic. But no where in any of the books have I seen an equivalent concept in Westeros. There could be something on the Wiki.

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Actually I think it was quite significant, quite a shocker that he gave the crown of Love and Beauty to Lyanna. Rhaegar was married, so he should have given it to his wife. After all, who else is he supposed to love except his wife?

Clearly it made 'all the smiles die', so it was at least some form of a shocker.

But there is no indication at all, and some contra-indication (as I already pointed out) that the tourney winner was supposed to give the award to his romantic love. Obviously the original 'champions' were not all in love with their sister/niece.

So please, what makes you think that the winner was supposed to give it too the woman he loved, given that the starting situation for the tourney is certainly not that case?

If the winner was an unmarried knight, he could have given it to any unmarried woman.

On what do you base this? Anything from westeros or the books?

In the tradition of courtly love in medieval Europe, I think the unmarried knight could even give the crown to a married woman, because the tradition of courtly love was romantic. And an unmarried knight could wear the favour of a married woman and honour her if he won a tourney, because romantic love was platonic. But no where in any of the books have I seen an equivalent concept in Westeros. There could be something on the Wiki.

We haven't seen much similar to 'courtly love' in Westeros though.

The wiki is just put together and edited by fans like you and me. Its a nice resource, but not trustworthy where it doesn't have explicit textual references. I have found numerous mistakes (in fact particualrly with reference to the Harrenhal tourney).

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Hi all! New here. Been lurking a while.

I'm sure this has been mentioned at some point but in version 20 of this thread only the gods know when it was. But looking back at Ned's imprisonment and that conversation with Varys where he asks if Varys will deliver a letter if he put something in writing. Varys' reply was basically "I might depending on what it says". Now I wonder if Ned wrote this letter and Varys never delivered it (as I'm sure it had to do with Jon although I doubt he'd spill everything in a letter) or do you think he just never bothered to write it since there was no guarantee it would make it to who it was intended?

If we're thinking Aegon is a fakedy-fake-fake (which I personally do) and Varys is behind it in an effort to put a Blackfyre on the throne, do you think he may suspect something about Jon if Ned actually did write this letter? No, Ned wouldn't put R+L=J in a letter but he may have written something to make Varys suspect something. OR he could have just said "eff it if I'm going to the Wall, I can tell Jon everything then".

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I nuts?

Hi Noelle Snow. Welcome!

The letter hasn't come up. don't know it there was one.

But we could be missing some vital information about the deal Ned made. We know Varys announced, when he visited Ned in his cell, that Cersei would pay Ned a visit in the morning to come. What was discussed there led to Cersei's belief that Ned would make his public confession and that he would be send to the Wall. If Ned believed that, and the letter he was talking of considered Jon, then maybe Ned did not feel the need to send this letter.

I hope we will learn about what was discussed, that morning between Ned and Cersei, because I suspect Cersei knows a bit about Jon.

Didn't she later plans on getting him killed? This surprised me, nobody in Kings Landing expressed any interest in what happened at the Wall until then.

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I hope we will learn about what was discussed, that morning between Ned and Cersei, because I suspect Cersei knows a bit about Jon.

Didn't she later plans on getting him killed? This surprised me, nobody in Kings Landing expressed any interest in what happened at the Wall until then.

I'd really love to see some flashbacks to that conversation in Cersei's PoVs, it seems that she has finally come to re-evaluating her life and possibly also some things she never thought about before. However, I do not want too many details, I've had enough of Ned's suffering in his last chapters.

I don't think he revealed anything about Jon, though - the Wylla story that was fed to Robert would be good enough for Cersei, as well.

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I don't think he revealed anything about Jon, though - the Wylla story that was fed to Robert would be good enough for Cersei, as well.

I agree. Ned would not reveal all his secrets, maybe some of them if it was included in Cersei's offer that he gave information. Cersei knew something about a 'stolen child'. That's how I read her conversation with Ned when Ned gave her his ultimatum. I can imagine she would use the grip she had on Ned in his cell to confirm her suspicions.

The scene we have not seen would have been a nice parallel: the power balance had shifted and now Cersei is giving Ned her ultimatum.

Well, speculating here. Just have to wait and see if what happened will be in a flashback by Cersei, or maybe there is a time where it is in Varys' interests to tell what he knows about the conditions of the deal..

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I haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories, though I have read some of the info from them on the Wiki. But when people bring Blackfyre stuff into R+L+J, Aegon, and greenseer threads it is always way over my head. I'm assuming alot of other ASOIAF readers haven't read the stories though, and it makes me think that GRRM wouldn't make their stories a part of the core ASOIAF storyline.

Bloodraven is in the main storyline now, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Blackfyres end up in it as well.

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The Blackfyres rebellions are already tied into the main storyline through the Golden Company. They had a role in Dance and may be pivotal to events in the South during TWoW.

I don't think any actual Blackfyres will be seen in the main storyline because I don't think there are any around. Forty years ago there were still Blackyres descended through the female line, but that does not mean the family has not died out entirely since then.

I would expect the officers of the Golden Company to know if there were still Blackfyres living - the company was in a sense the Blackfyre's court-in-exile. Yet they express no interest, knowledge or speculation about the Blackfyres, so they must believe the line is dead.

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The Blackfyres rebellions are already tied into the main storyline through the Golden Company. They had a role in Dance and may be pivotal to events in the South during TWoW. I don't think any actual Blackfyres will be seen in the main storyline because I don't think there are any around. Forty years ago there were still Blackyres descended through the female line, but that does not mean the family has not died out entirely since then. I would expect the officers of the Golden Company to know if there were still Blackfyres living - the company was in a sense the Blackfyre's court-in-exile. Yet they express no interest, knowledge or speculation about the Blackfyres, so they must believe the line is dead.

Probably, what if Aegon is actually a Blackfyre?Just represented by Illirio and Varys like Rhaegar's heir?! I doubt that he is what he claims to be, all that "saved Aegon story" seems very unlikely. IMHO.

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Probably, what if Aegon is actually a Blackfyre?Just represented by Illirio and Varys like Rhaegar's heir?! I doubt that he is what he claims to be, all that "saved Aegon story" seems very unlikely. IMHO.

Agreed. But there are forseshadowings and parallels in the novels. So I leave some room for that it is possible.

It could be a good storyline too.

Just read somewhere in another thread that people speculate on a Stark reunion, that this is what the storyline will proceed to.

Jon meeting Bran, Arya, maybe Sansa.

If a 'reunion of related people' is what GRRM wants there could be a nice storyline for a 'Targ reunion', where Jon is also a main character

Jon meeting his auntie Dany and his halfbrother.Aegon. These three together would make a nice sizzle, storywise.

And Jon - if he is not dead, which I believe, mainly for plot and form reasons - could meet some other people with Targ blood: Stannis he already met, but I suppose both of them were unaware they are related. ETA As I suppose Aemon and Jon were unaware.

Jon meeting Arianne would be interesting too, but one of them is bound to travel some to meet.

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:agree: I agree. Perhaps people would have just thought Elia displeased him somehow and let it go without any backing behavior to support "Rhaegar loves Lyanna". Crowning Lyanna doesn't have to be about Lyanna. That's not to say people wouldn't talk. They probably would have. But saying Rhaegar's feelings are clear is a bit overstated.

If I'm prom king and was given the chance to select my own prom queen and my girlfriend and I selected someone else as queen... I know how it would be interpreted. No one can know what was going through his mind, but at that moment i think people would be clear he has feelings for lyanna.

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If I'm prom king and was given the chance to select my own prom queen and my girlfriend and I selected someone else as queen... I know how it would be interpreted. No one can know what was going through his mind, but at that moment i think people would be clear he has feelings for lyanna.

Its not prom, and its not a bunch of immature teenagers.

It is quite clear that the basic standard is not necessarily to choose a romantic partner, since none of the original 'champions' would be eligible romantic partners for Whent's daughter.

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Its not prom, and its not a bunch of immature teenagers.

It is quite clear that the basic standard is not necessarily to choose a romantic partner, since none of the original 'champions' would be eligible romantic partners for Whent's daughter.

I think it has that predisposition though. All the smiles died. Didn't jorah select his future wife at lannisport and maybe he could've chosen whents daughter as a show of respect. Given the people seeming uncomfort unless something else at that exact moment caused them to stop smiling and the events that followed this had some romantic overtones.

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If I'm prom king and was given the chance to select my own prom queen and my girlfriend and I selected someone else as queen... I know how it would be interpreted. No one can know what was going through his mind, but at that moment i think people would be clear he has feelings for lyanna.

I think many people are still going off perceptions they formed before ADwD where there was a lot of speculation about Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and his giving her that crown for reward, because he felt she deserved it.

But, since Dance has come out, Selmy pretty much confirmed that "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it," so in looking back to the events of Harrenhal, I think it puts it in a different perspective.

As well as the little bits of information that Selmy starts giving Dany about Rhaegars marriage to Elia where he tells her that Rhaegar was "fond" of his wife, and Dany pretty much knows what "fond" means.

It's also backed up a bit by JonCon in his POV, though given his personal feelings, it has to be taken with a grain of salt, but unfortunately for Elia, even Selmy appears not to be that impressed with her beyond she's good and gracious and has a sweet wit.

I personally believe that Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and that of course would be how they met and got to know one another on a more personal basis, so she is not just another pretty face herself, impressing Rhaegar as well as intrigueing him.

But, beyond that speculation, what we do know for sure is that she fought off three bullys to save a boy she didn't know, which is admirable in itself, and likely made the gossip rounds.

The one thing I have never been able square is this idea of if Lyanna was the KoTLT, and Rhaegar found out, promised to keep her secret, which means that perhaps from that moment on, she needed to lay low and behave herself, given Aerys paranoia about the Starks, that Rhaegar would then turn around and put her front and center, (no matter what the reason), in front of the Kingdom and his Father.

There are just too many other ways an intelligent Prince could find to reward her, (a jewelled dagger, or her own sword) delivered to her discreetly rather than what he did if it was to reward her.

It also suggests it took Lyanna by surprise as it was Ned who actually reached out and touched the crown in her lap, rather than Lyanna.

Since Dance, and the further revelations, I think it confirms for me that there was something else going on, whether it was an act of impulse to cause trouble for her and Robert, (perhaps he thought Robert would be outraged enough to break the betrothal at a hint of impropriety), or whether is was dutiful Rhaegars own moment of rebellion against his Father.

Okay, have to go to work.

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I hope we will learn about what was discussed, that morning between Ned and Cersei, because I suspect Cersei knows a bit about Jon.

Didn't she later plans on getting him killed? This surprised me, nobody in Kings Landing expressed any interest in what happened at the Wall until then.

The chapter in AFFC when Cersei plans on assassinating Jon is pretty revealing. Cersei looks at Aurane Waters, an actual bastard, and is amazed at how much he looks like Rhaegar. When she comes to talk contemptuously of Jon (who is more than likely the legitimate son of R+L) she mentions seeing him at Winterfell and says something along the lines of "he looks very like his father", ie Ned. Delicious

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