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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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I remember the part with the letter but I'm not sure if it was ever written. I want to say no, because 1. I don't think Ned would be dumb enough to write a letter knowing Varys would read it and 2. the letter hasn't surfaced anywhere.

But you can't deny a letter from Ned at this point could be a nice touch - though, coming from Varys, neither the readers nor the characters could trust its authenticity.

Hi Noelle Snow. Welcome!

The letter hasn't come up. don't know it there was one.

But we could be missing some vital information about the deal Ned made. We know Varys announced, when he visited Ned in his cell, that Cersei would pay Ned a visit in the morning to come. What was discussed there led to Cersei's belief that Ned would make his public confession and that he would be send to the Wall. If Ned believed that, and the letter he was talking of considered Jon, then maybe Ned did not feel the need to send this letter.

I hope we will learn about what was discussed, that morning between Ned and Cersei, because I suspect Cersei knows a bit about Jon.

Didn't she later plans on getting him killed? This surprised me, nobody in Kings Landing expressed any interest in what happened at the Wall until then.

I don't think she knew anything about Jon, otherwise it would be poor writing of Martin that nothing pointed in that direction in her own POV when she expressed the desire to see him killed. But I'd like her to know about R+L=J before she dies :lol:

About Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown... whatever his motivation was, it feels like a miscalculation on his part, because obviously people didn't take it very well. Unless the characters who tell us about people's reaction (btw, which characters tell us the story?) remember it in retrospect, after the whole elopement/abduction deal and believe people were shocked, even if at that time it meant nothing to anyone. The thing is, if it was not out of "love" that Rhaegar crowned her, the only other explanation I see is that he did so in a way to please the Starks and try not to be hated by the Tully-Arryn-Stark party - but of course, it might not have been the smartest move, since Lyanna was to marry the Lord of Storm's End, so...

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The chapter in AFFC when Cersei plans on assassinating Jon is pretty revealing. Cersei looks at Aurane Waters, an actual bastard, and is amazed at how much he looks like Rhaegar. When she comes to talk contemptuously of Jon (who is more than likely the legitimate son of R+L) she mentions seeing him at Winterfell and says something along the lines of "he looks very like his father", ie Ned. Delicious

I somehow missed that part that she actually plans to kill Jon, where was that? And, did she ever get round to going through with the plan? In the light of the last events, could this be one of the reasons?

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@Ygrain

That was the point of sending Janos Slynt to the wall with the support of Tywin. He was to become LC of the NW, wich would have led to Jon´s execution.

ETA: That already happened at the end of ASoS. Cersai came later. Sorry

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I somehow missed that part that she actually plans to kill Jon, where was that? And, did she ever get round to going through with the plan? In the light of the last events, could this be one of the reasons?

She was going to send a Kettleblack up there to off him, yes. He would go to the Wall as "punishment" for his crime, assassinate Jon and then (supposedly) be pardoned. This was derailed when the High Septon arrested said Kettleblack and got him to confess to Cersei's Margaery plot.

@Ygrain

That was the point of sending Janos Slynt to the wall with the support of Tywin. He was to become LC of the NW, wich would have led to Jon´s execution.

Slynt was sent up to the Wall waaaaay before Jon was ever elected Lord Commander, and this was at Tyrion's order, not Cersei's. He just happened to get there at a bad time, but he was not expressly sent to get rid of Jon.

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Has anyone ever proposed a theory that Jon is in fact Aegon Targaryen, and "Young Griff" (and Jon Connington) is merely a diversion?

Huh? And how would he be "Ned's blood", then?

@Apple Martini, thanks for answer

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Since Dance, and the further revelations, I think it confirms for me that there was something else going on, whether it was an act of impulse to cause trouble for her and Robert, (perhaps he thought Robert would be outraged enough to break the betrothal at a hint of impropriety), or whether is was dutiful Rhaegars own moment of rebellion against his Father.

:agree: I have a nasty suspicion that the crown of blue winter roses may have been a political statement. I doubt it was just an act of love.

There could have been multiple messages here.

To House Stark and House Baratheon that the Targaryens did not want the marriage contract between the Storm Lord and the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell. That Rhaegar wanted Lyanna for himself.

And I suspect that the 'dying smiles' were not so much because of a possible affront to Elia, but because of the reference to the legend of Bael, of the blue winter rose Bael left when he wanted and took a daughter of another Lord Stark.

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Has anyone ever proposed a theory that Jon is in fact Aegon Targaryen, and "Young Griff" (and Jon Connington) is merely a diversion?

Yes but it falls apart pretty quickly. Aegon was supposed to have the Targ look, meaning silvery hair and violet-ish eyes. In other words, very unlike Jon. We know that Jon has at least some Stark in the equation somewhere, which doesn't make sense because Aegon is Elia and Rhaegar's son.

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Its not prom, and its not a bunch of immature teenagers.

It is quite clear that the basic standard is not necessarily to choose a romantic partner, since none of the original 'champions' would be eligible romantic partners for Whent's daughter.

Uh...actually it is a bunch of immature teenagers. The tourney at Haranhall seemed to be the prom of that generation. Almost all the adults in the series (who would have been teenagers back then, even if they were the Westerosi version of celebre-tots) were at the tourney as teenagers with the exception of Rhaegar, who just seemed a bit older - maybe early 20s - honestly less sure of his age than that of the Starks/Baratheons/Lannisters.

ETA: As for Cersei knowing about Jon, I highly doubt it. She wanted him dead because she did not want a Stark sitting as LC of the NW, especially not Ned's son and Robb's brother who might have a serious axe to grind with the Lannisters. I think Tywin was trying to make the NW more of an extension of the crown, hence his efforts to court Slynt and influence the LC election, but all that failed when Jon was elected instead. Jon being elected was a total surprise since he is one of the youngest LC ever in the NW history (Sam makes reference to this I think in AFFC before he is sent off - or during the election in ASOS). Anyway Cersei is also not someone who looks for deeper meanings or sees the actual consequence of things (if she did she never never never would have rearmed the faith, dismissed Sir Barristan) so I don't think her reference to a stolen child is that she has somehow pieced together what no one else has (that Jon isn't Ned's but Lyanna's), but more that she believed the story that Ashara was Jon's mother and basically took up Ashara's side when talking to Ned (i.e. playing the wounded mother who lost her child).

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Yes but it falls apart pretty quickly. Aegon was supposed to have the Targ look, meaning silvery hair and violet-ish eyes. In other words, very unlike Jon. We know that Jon has at least some Stark in the equation somewhere, which doesn't make sense because Aegon is Elia and Rhaegar's son.

We can't shake the Aegon talk. But Aegon does have silver hair and vilolet eyes but they dyed his hair blue and it made his eyes also appear blue. If Aegon turns out to be an imposter I think Martin will present a situation where dany tries to dye her hair for a disguise for one reason or another but her hair won't take the dye and then there would be something in the text to really give the conspiracy of the conspiracy some legs.

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:agree: I have a nasty suspicion that the crown of blue winter roses may have been a political statement. I doubt it was just an act of love.

There could have been multiple messages here.

To House Stark and House Baratheon that the Targaryens did not want the marriage contract between the Storm Lord and the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell. That Rhaegar wanted Lyanna for himself.

And I suspect that the 'dying smiles' were not so much because of a possible affront to Elia, but because of the reference to the legend of Bael, of the blue winter rose Bael left when he wanted and took a daughter of another Lord Stark.

But wouldn't the legend of Bael be known only among the Northmen? I was under the impression the dying smiles came from everywhere, not just from Stark men.

We can't shake the Aegon talk. But Aegon does have silver hair and vilolet eyes but they dyed his hair blue and it made his eyes also appear blue. If Aegon turns out to be an imposter I think Martin will present a situation where dany tries to dye her hair for a disguise for one reason or another but her hair won't take the dye and then there would be something in the text to really give the conspiracy of the conspiracy some legs.

I don't think this would make any sense. If YG really is a Blackfyre, he has as much "dragon blood" as Daenerys, if not more. Why would his hair take the dye, but not hers? And I doubt Daenerys is the kind of person who would ever disguise her Targ looks - she's too proud, and too proud of her blood, for that.

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Oh I really hope the question of Aegon isn't answered by hair dye. It would be quite the let-down.

I don't think even many Northmen would know the tale of Bael the Bard, it's a wildling tale that boasts how one of their own was smart enough to steal the daughter of the King in the North. I can't imagine it's a song that ever got much play at Winterfell as it tells of how the Starks not only got outwitted, but are descended from a kinslaying bastard. The significance of the wreath being of winter roses is that they were Lyanna's favourite flowers - so either Rhaegar knew her well or they became her favourite because of this.

Rhaegar favouring another girl over his wife is reason enough for smiles to die. Probably only for a few minutes though, as nothing further happened (publically) between R and L at the time. The incident would have probably been forgotten if Lyanna had not been taken a year later, because that caused everybody to look back and think the signs of Rhaegars interest where there all along.

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But wouldn't the legend of Bael be known only among the Northmen? I was under the impression the dying smiles came from everywhere, not just from Stark men.

I don't think this would make any sense. If YG really is a Blackfyre, he has as much "dragon blood" as Daenerys, if not more. Why would his hair take the dye, but not hers? And I doubt Daenerys is the kind of person who would ever disguise her Targ looks - she's too proud, and too proud of her blood, for that.

I don't know. This isn't a theory I've been thinking up just off the top of my head with all the fake Aegon talk. She would do it for the safety of her people. Maybe one day Martin will want to write that full blood targaryens can't dye their hair and blackfyre Aegon could. But I think he's real anyway so that won't happen and I was half kidding. and Aegon was half targ half martell so as I'm writing this I realize how stupid it is. And this may have been touched on in one of the 20 versions but does anyone have any opinions on what aerys assumptions were as to the whereabouts of his lord commander Arthur dayne and oswell whent? And if them being there(whent and dayne especially) was part of a big long scheme possibly even going as far back as the tournament. Maybe Rhaegar was so sure his son would be fighting the others he wanted to marry lyanna( I'm almost positive he fell in love with her or he would've chosen a northern girl who wasn't promised to someone else) and situate his son in the north in preparations.

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And this may have been touched on in one of the 20 versions but does anyone have any opinions on what aerys assumptions were as to the whereabouts of his lord commander Arthur dayne and oswell whent? And if them being there(whent and dayne especially) was part of a big long scheme possibly even going as far back as the tournament. Maybe Rhaegar was so sure his son would be fighting the others he wanted to marry lyanna( I'm almost positive he fell in love with her or he would've chosen a northern girl who wasn't promised to someone else) and situate his son in the north in preparations.

I have no idea, there's such a lack of information about what the characters thought at the time about the Lyanna-Rhaegar thing. I assume Aerys, being the paranoid guy he was, probably thought the KG had betrayed him and were conspiring with Rhaegar to "steal" his throne, or something like that. I don't think Rhaegar could have known about the Others (and now I'm in a serious conflict of - is Screaming Knight serious or joking about it? :P ). But Martin owes us a more detailed explanation about those two years, from Harrenhall to Robert becoming king, even before that. So, well... in ten years we'll have the answers to your questions :stillsick:

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Uh...actually it is a bunch of immature teenagers. The tourney at Haranhall seemed to be the prom of that generation. Almost all the adults in the series (who would have been teenagers back then, even if they were the Westerosi version of celebre-tots) were at the tourney as teenagers with the exception of Rhaegar, who just seemed a bit older - maybe early 20s - honestly less sure of his age than that of the Starks/Baratheons/Lannisters.

Its still not just a bunch of immature teenagers, nor are the actual teenagers teenagers in the way we think of as modern teenagers.

Apart from the fact that most of the nobility were there, and only a small proportion would have actually been teenagers (though I have to admit, it does seems a very high proportion of relatively youthful players among those we know about), the actual teenagers are in very much more mature places in their lives than modern teenagers. They can lead armies, are considered adults (and play dangerous 'contact sports' against fully mature and experienced adults) be married at 13-16, and are already trained to be thinking in terms of dynastic succession and political marriages. Sure, they are still hormonal and not fully developed, and still make teenage mistakes, but socially they are almost certainly much more aware of social implications and dynamics far beyond modern teenagers whose biggest social concern for the future is basically try not get pregnant accidentally.

Yes, a few, especially perhaps some of the teenage girls, might have thought 'ooh, he's in lurv, how romantic, wish that bitch was me' sort of thing.

But most of the crowd there, teenage or not, would be immediately thinking of the ramifications, the politics, the dynamics, not how luvey-duvey it all was. Unless it was a lot more luvey-duvey than we have so far been told.

And this may have been touched on in one of the 20 versions but does anyone have any opinions on what aerys assumptions were as to the whereabouts of his lord commander Arthur dayne and oswell whent?

We know Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's closest friend and confidante, so we suspect that Aerys knew that Dayne was with Rhaegar - his more or less permanently assigned bodyguard.

We know Hightower was in KL when Brandon did his thing, and the next place we know his whereabouts is ToJ.

We don't know anything of Whent's travels, between Harrenhal (he was one of the original CHamions as uncle of Lord Whent's daughter) and ToJ.

We know that after the Battle of the Bells Rhaegar was recalled to lead the loyalist forces, yet when Brandon did his thing no one was willing to admit they knew where he was. So how was he recalled?

I suspect that Dayne at least was with Rhaegar the whole time. I think it likely that Hightower always knew where Rhaegar was and what he was doing, but wasn't letting Aerys know because of Aery's paranoia could cause him to do something self/dynasty destructive. I suspect Hightower may have sent a message to Rhaegar when Brandon did his thing, but it took so long to get there that it was too late to act (no Ravens at ToJ). After Battle of the Bells when Aerys decided Rhaegar was needed to return to take personal command of the war effort, I suspect Hightower volunteered to go on a mission to find him, probably taking 1-2 other KG with him. That would be 1 KG with Rhaegar, 3 KG on a mission to find Rhaegar (Hightower, Whent and probably Darry), and 3 KG still at KL with the King and royal family. I then suspect Hightower (+2KG) rode straight to Rhaegar, who returned with at least one KG (Darry probably) to KL, leaving Hightower, Whent and Dayne still at ToJ where Lyanna was already too 'big' to travel safely.

Thereafter Rhaegar takes Martell, Selmy and Darry to war, leaving Jaime, a large body of men and and invincible stronghold to protect the King and royal family.

This is all very much supposition, based to fit who we know was where when, and not where when (rather limited even combined) and the likelihood that Martell would have been one of the least likely for Rhaegar to trust with Lyanna and Selmy seeming to be pretty much outside of Rhaegar's confidence.

But based on this, the answer could be that Aerys sent Hightower and Whent on a mission to find Rhaegar and that after they did, Rhaegar acting as CiC (as appointed by Aerys) reassigned them to another mission.

No real evidence though, other than what seems to fit well and feel right.

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I have no idea, there's such a lack of information about what the characters thought at the time about the Lyanna-Rhaegar thing. I assume Aerys, being the paranoid guy he was, probably thought the KG had betrayed him and were conspiring with Rhaegar to "steal" his throne, or something like that. I don't think Rhaegar could have known about the Others (and now I'm in a serious conflict of - is Screaming Knight serious or joking about it? :P ). But Martin owes us a more detailed explanation about those two years, from Harrenhall to Robert becoming king, even before that. So, well... in ten years we'll have the answers to your questions :stillsick:

Serious about what? I think rhaegar knew all about the others, if he knew about Azor Ahai then he knew. Actually was probably obsessed and if I'm gonna wait 10 years to find out I only can drive myself crazy with theories and listening to other peoples theories. And if that was his plan then he did succeed in it. Maybe Ned was even filled in before lyanna died and promised to send Jon to the wall. There is a thread right now ( Jon the bastard) where people are discussing why Ned didn't send him to be fostered somewhere and things like that. But no way to say its right but probably plenty ways to say why it's wrong.
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