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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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I have no idea, there's such a lack of information about what the characters thought at the time about the Lyanna-Rhaegar thing. I assume Aerys, being the paranoid guy he was, probably thought the KG had betrayed him and were conspiring with Rhaegar to "steal" his throne, or something like that. I don't think Rhaegar could have known about the Others (and now I'm in a serious conflict of - is Screaming Knight serious or joking about it? :P ). But Martin owes us a more detailed explanation about those two years, from Harrenhall to Robert becoming king, even before that. So, well... in ten years we'll have the answers to your questions :stillsick:

Serious about what? I think rhaegar knew all about the others, if he knew about Azor Ahai then he knew. Actually was probably obsessed and if I'm gonna wait 10 years to find out I only can drive myself crazy with theories and listening to other peoples theories. And if that was his plan then he did succeed in it. Maybe Ned was even filled in before lyanna died and promised to send Jon to the wall. There is a thread right now ( Jon the bastard) where people are discussing why Ned didn't send him to be fostered somewhere and things like that. But no way to say its right but probably plenty ways to say why it's wrong.
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Well, Lady Octarina, I think it's possible Rhaegar knew about the Others, if he indeed knew about AA. Then there's the fact that at some point he regularly corresponded with Aemon at the Wall, and Aemon could have helped him connect the AA dot to the Others dot.

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Rhaegar knew about AA but through the PTWP legend. We don't know how the Others fit in that; and it's very unlikely he would wish to send his child (who he didn't yet know would be a boy) to the Wall, for he would lose his claim, and it's common use in monarchies (at least in our world) to have two heirs, male, in case the older one dies - like Aegon died. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I don't remember Aemon knowing much about the Others. Probably less than someone like Old Nan, I'd say.

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Rhaegar knew about AA but through the PTWP legend. We don't know how the Others fit in that; and it's very unlikely he would wish to send his child (who he didn't yet know would be a boy) to the Wall, for he would lose his claim, and it's common use in monarchies (at least in our world) to have two heirs, male, in case the older one dies - like Aegon died. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I don't remember Aemon knowing much about the Others. Probably less than someone like Old Nan, I'd say.

Good point. I had forgotten that Aemon was all but usless when Jon cam back from beyond the wall regarding information on the Others. I think that perhaps Aemon HAD read the scrolls about the Others that the Night's Watch owned, but forgot about it, or something.

I think he would be a pretty lousy maester if he didn't bother to go through the scrolls at some point. But he's 99 years old. I can't expect him to remember EVERYTHING.

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Rhaegar knew about AA but through the PTWP legend. We don't know how the Others fit in that; and it's very unlikely he would wish to send his child (who he didn't yet know would be a boy) to the Wall, for he would lose his claim, and it's common use in monarchies (at least in our world) to have two heirs, male, in case the older one dies - like Aegon died. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I don't remember Aemon knowing much about the Others. Probably less than someone like Old Nan, I'd say.

If Rhaegar read about the prince that was promised, he would have to know about Azor Ahai and the others. Wasnt it the others he fought during the long night with lightbringer. I have my whole set of books lent out so I am a little rough around the edges with where exactly to find everything. And in a storm of swords when Mel is talking to Davos about the prophecy and the great other etc. I took that as probably the same prophecy that rhaegar read. I doubt he had intentions of his son taking the black, but I'm thinking rhaegar wanted his son to be in the north and after seeing lyanna and how strong willed she was maybe taking notice to other skills she possesed, saw her as the perfect mother for Jon. Raise him in the north and prepare him to save the world when the others return. He may not have been concerned about heirs with the world at stake.

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Rhaegar knew about AA but through the PTWP legend. We don't know how the Others fit in that; and it's very unlikely he would wish to send his child (who he didn't yet know would be a boy) to the Wall, for he would lose his claim, and it's common use in monarchies (at least in our world) to have two heirs, male, in case the older one dies - like Aegon died. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I don't remember Aemon knowing much about the Others. Probably less than someone like Old Nan, I'd say.

If Rhaegar read about the prince that was promised, he would have to know about Azor Ahai and the others. Wasnt it the others he fought during the long night with lightbringer. I have my whole set of books lent out so I am a little rough around the edges with where exactly to find everything. And in a storm of swords when Mel is talking to Davos about the prophecy and the great other etc. I took that as probably the same prophecy that rhaegar read. I doubt he had intentions of his son taking the black, but I'm thinking rhaegar wanted his son to be in the north and after seeing lyanna and how strong willed she was maybe taking notice to other skills she possesed, saw her as the perfect mother for Jon. Raise him in the north and prepare him to save the world when the others return. He may not have been concerned about heirs with the world at stake.

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:agree: I have a nasty suspicion that the crown of blue winter roses may have been a political statement. I doubt it was just an act of love.

There could have been multiple messages here.

To House Stark and House Baratheon that the Targaryens did not want the marriage contract between the Storm Lord and the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell. That Rhaegar wanted Lyanna for himself.

And I suspect that the 'dying smiles' were not so much because of a possible affront to Elia, but because of the reference to the legend of Bael, of the blue winter rose Bael left when he wanted and took a daughter of another Lord Stark.

Thats the reason that I say since Dance, the events of Harrenhal have to be reevaluated.

I think he did want her for himself, but it could also have a political benefit, which is an arguement he may have attempted to use to persuade his Father to let him pursue Lyanna, but probably failed.

(I have always been one in the camp that does not automatically buy that Lyanna would just consent to a relationship with Rhaegar given both their circumstances, and her sense of honor though she might have indeed loved him).

So, I think given that, Rhaegar could have thought to manipulate Robert into being outraged enough to break the betrothal himself due to the hinted impropriety, or perhaps he thought Robert might even step aside, which in turn might make the Starks more open to accepting him, since at that point no man would probably touch her.

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I think he would be a pretty lousy maester if he didn't bother to go through the scrolls at some point. But he's 99 years old. I can't expect him to remember EVERYTHING.

Not to mention that, according to Sam, there were far too many scrolls and books for anyone to be able to read them all. And he said something about how most of them seemed untouched for far too many years.

If Rhaegar read about the prince that was promised, he would have to know about Azor Ahai and the others. Wasnt it the others he fought during the long night with lightbringer. I have my whole set of books lent out so I am a little rough around the edges with where exactly to find everything. And in a storm of swords when Mel is talking to Davos about the prophecy and the great other etc. I took that as probably the same prophecy that rhaegar read. I doubt he had intentions of his son taking the black, but I'm thinking rhaegar wanted his son to be in the north and after seeing lyanna and how strong willed she was maybe taking notice to other skills she possesed, saw her as the perfect mother for Jon. Raise him in the north and prepare him to save the world when the others return. He may not have been concerned about heirs with the world at stake.

Not really. Those Others we're familiar with are something from the North, I don't think Rhaegar was aware of that one legend, since even Northerners weren't. The thing is, the idea of "Others" who should be battled otherwise "the world as we know it" will be destroyed exists in many cultures (and here I'm doing a parallel with our world), but they rarely refer to the same people. There is an anthropological concept that says creating an Other is a basic mechanism to define ourselves in opposition to them. "Us" against "them". It's not that different when we're dealing with myths - if you create an evil other, an outsider, you're valuing your own goodness and worth.

In ASoIaF we're talking about a particular hero fighting against evil incarnate, or something like that. Even if we accept the idea that the AA/PTWP legends originated in the same place, refer to the same event, that happened centuries (or thousands of years?) ago, and, having a sea between the two peoples who tell this story and believe in it mean that both the geographic and the chronological distance would differentiate one legend from the other. We have no reason o believe Rhaegar would have a way to trace them to beyond the Wall just because we're have come to that conclusion ourselves. What little information we have is still more useful than the scattered pieces of knowledge they have in Westeros.

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I was reading through your posts (by the way very interesting and entertaining) and noticed that a lot of people doubt that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna because of love and attraction. For me it seems like he all his life was "a good boy", did whatever his father said, he married woman he didn't love + he always was described as some kind depressed or sullen. It would be quite nice if he indeed fall in love for the first time (I assume that Lyanna was TKOLT and that's the way they met), let himself go and become happy also for the first time in his life (the way things are described I suspect it what was happened, really).

Why do I think so: well, he was too smart (at least described to be very intelligent) to do both to crown Lyanna and to kidnap her, therefore, I suspect it wasn't brains he was using when making those decisions. Thus, he just deeply madly fall in love with a brave, smart, wild and beautiful teenage girl (she seems to be an opposite to his calm and sullen character). She swept him off his feet, so to say. It seems more like Romeo & Julliet style, but much more complicated and interested.

I actually would be disappointed if it was a political gesture, or if the crowning had some other motivation.

Could the crowning have any other meaning, but to express his attractions? Do you think it was a provocation of some kind? I would be grateful if somebody explains, thank you.

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I took the crowning to be Rhaegar's subtle appreciation for Lyanna's tourney skills. She defeated the men she challenged and was apparently one of the last people standing (last three?). But because of Aerys' order, she was unable to compete at the end and thus unable to win the tourney. Rhaegar named her Queen of Love and Beauty as an homage -- giving her the recognition as a lady that she couldn't have gotten as a "knight." I don't think it was a political statement, nor do I think he was already madly in love with her and deliberately slighting his wife. I think they met at the tourney and that was what eventually led to them falling in love and eloping.

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We know Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's closest friend and confidante, so we suspect that Aerys knew that Dayne was with Rhaegar - his more or less permanently assigned bodyguard.

We know Hightower was in KL when Brandon did his thing, and the next place we know his whereabouts is ToJ.

We don't know anything of Whent's travels, between Harrenhal (he was one of the original CHamions as uncle of Lord Whent's daughter) and ToJ.

We know that after the Battle of the Bells Rhaegar was recalled to lead the loyalist forces, yet when Brandon did his thing no one was willing to admit they knew where he was. So how was he recalled?

I suspect that Dayne at least was with Rhaegar the whole time. I think it likely that Hightower always knew where Rhaegar was and what he was doing, but wasn't letting Aerys know because of Aery's paranoia could cause him to do something self/dynasty destructive. I suspect Hightower may have sent a message to Rhaegar when Brandon did his thing, but it took so long to get there that it was too late to act (no Ravens at ToJ). After Battle of the Bells when Aerys decided Rhaegar was needed to return to take personal command of the war effort, I suspect Hightower volunteered to go on a mission to find him, probably taking 1-2 other KG with him. That would be 1 KG with Rhaegar, 3 KG on a mission to find Rhaegar (Hightower, Whent and probably Darry), and 3 KG still at KL with the King and royal family. I then suspect Hightower (+2KG) rode straight to Rhaegar, who returned with at least one KG (Darry probably) to KL, leaving Hightower, Whent and Dayne still at ToJ where Lyanna was already too 'big' to travel safely.

Thereafter Rhaegar takes Martell, Selmy and Darry to war, leaving Jaime, a large body of men and and invincible stronghold to protect the King and royal family.

This is all very much supposition, based to fit who we know was where when, and not where when (rather limited even combined) and the likelihood that Martell would have been one of the least likely for Rhaegar to trust with Lyanna and Selmy seeming to be pretty much outside of Rhaegar's confidence.

But based on this, the answer could be that Aerys sent Hightower and Whent on a mission to find Rhaegar and that after they did, Rhaegar acting as CiC (as appointed by Aerys) reassigned them to another mission.

No real evidence though, other than what seems to fit well and feel right.

Didn't Jaime tell us that Martell was told by Aerys to rally an army of Dornismen? So he would head south, and take the Dornish to the Trident.

I suspect Martell would be the most appropriate guard for Elia, that may be why Aerys did not want him in Kings Landing.

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I was reading through your posts (by the way very interesting and entertaining) and noticed that a lot of people doubt that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna because of love and attraction. For me it seems like he all his life was "a good boy", did whatever his father said, he married woman he didn't love + he always was described as some kind depressed or sullen. It would be quite nice if he indeed fall in love for the first time (I assume that Lyanna was TKOLT and that's the way they met), let himself go and become happy also for the first time in his life (the way things are described I suspect it what was happened, really).

Why do I think so: well, he was too smart (at least described to be very intelligent) to do both to crown Lyanna and to kidnap her, therefore, I suspect it wasn't brains he was using when making those decisions. Thus, he just deeply madly fall in love with a brave, smart, wild and beautiful teenage girl (she seems to be an opposite to his calm and sullen character). She swept him off his feet, so to say. It seems more like Romeo & Julliet style, but much more complicated and interested.

I actually would be disappointed if it was a political gesture, or if the crowning had some other motivation.

Could the crowning have any other meaning, but to express his attractions? Do you think it was a provocation of some kind? I would be grateful if somebody explains, thank you.

I suspect it was a combination of things.

As I said, I could just never see the crowning event as just a desire to reward her, because he could reward her in a hundred different ways,(i.e., a descreet gift).

I'm sure she understands why she couldn't be recognized publically.

While I think he was mindful of perhaps the unfairness of it, his Father was sensative to the Northmen, most specifically the Starks, so the most common sense, safe thing to do was for her to stay below the radar, because if there was gossip about the daughter of a prominent Norhthern Lord fighting off three squires rather successfully, then Rhaegar may not be the only one to put two and two together.

But, then he turns around and crowns her Queen of Love and Beauty, putting her in the spotlight of the Kingdom and Aerys?

(Now Aerys reaction to that is something I'd like to know).

I suppose I'm the only one to see that event as potentially dangerous to Lyanna, which is why in my humble opinion, I tend to think he was driven by emotions, and wasn't thinking.

I sometimes wonder what Rhaegar would have done if the KoTLT might have been Benjen- would he have turned him over to his Father?

Or, was the fact that KoTLT was likely Lyanna, and that is why he lied to his Father?

As I said, I think people are still going off perceptions and theories formed prior to Dance, and Selmys revelations which clarify Rhaegars feelings for Lyanna, putting the crowning in a different light.

And it's not like Lyanna was a mature, worldly married woman in an unfulfilling, political marriage like himself, with perhaps an indifferent Spouse that might actually profit from a relationship between his wife and the Crown Prince.

She was a Maid, and as a Maid, she occupies an almost sacred place in Society.

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Not to mention that, according to Sam, there were far too many scrolls and books for anyone to be able to read them all. And he said something about how most of them seemed untouched for far too many years.

Not really. Those Others we're familiar with are something from the North, I don't think Rhaegar was aware of that one legend, since even Northerners weren't. The thing is, the idea of "Others" who should be battled otherwise "the world as we know it" will be destroyed exists in many cultures (and here I'm doing a parallel with our world), but they rarely refer to the same people. There is an anthropological concept that says creating an Other is a basic mechanism to define ourselves in opposition to them. "Us" against "them". It's not that different when we're dealing with myths - if you create an evil other, an outsider, you're valuing your own goodness and worth.

In ASoIaF we're talking about a particular hero fighting against evil incarnate, or something like that. Even if we accept the idea that the AA/PTWP legends originated in the same place, refer to the same event, that happened centuries (or thousands of years?) ago, and, having a sea between the two peoples who tell this story and believe in it mean that both the geographic and the chronological distance would differentiate one legend from the other. We have no reason o believe Rhaegar would have a way to trace them to beyond the Wall just because we're have come to that conclusion ourselves. What little information we have is still more useful than the scattered pieces of knowledge they have in Westeros.

I agree in the respect that were given access to thoughts from 2 different sides of the realm that the 2 sides themselves are not aware of and like in any culture stories that may originate from the same place are then twisted, modified and lost in translation to be determined how the different sides want it to be determined. So in that respect, whatever story rhaegar might have read would probably be southern biased excluding certain details that would pertain more to northern culture. In the end though I think that The Prophecy is centered on the story of AA leading the fight against the others and the events leading up to that. The forging of lightbringer, sacrificing his wife, etc. only because they are the pieces we are given. Until we know how obsessed rhaegar was with this prophecy, for example if he went above and beyond to learn more about it ( which I think he did) than Id believe he knew about the others or some form of evil opponent beyond the wall and this influenced his decision to pursue lyanna. After Elia gave birth to Aegon and her health wasn't strong enough to support another pregnancy he may have decided it was meant to be and wanted his son to have northern ties. Now that's a shot in the dark. But I think he was interested enough to educate himself on the others.

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Knowing about The Others for the Northmen and learned men like maestars and Rhaegar (too many songs and tales from the north to suppose his complete ignorance) is like my saying I've heard of Centaurs. Many have heard about the Others, but the more important question is why did he believe it was true?

Why would Rhaegar alone be the sole person in Westeros to believe in some impending apocalypse based on the invasion of an alien force of mythic beings? What made him believe it when none others did? Did he have a dream about that too? Was Bloodraven involved somehow? If he did believe, why were no more men sent to the Wall in advance of TPTWP? Could he not impress the direness of the situation on Aerys?

I wonder if we'll find out that he did believe The Wall had been built for a more important reason than keeping out woman-abductors (might he have visited the Wall or read his great uncle's letters about the spells there?), that the idea of being prepared for the conflict motivated many of his actions, Lyanna, deposing Aerys in the future, etc.

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I don't think Rhaegar's scape with Lyanna was really about love and stuff. It is more understandable to think that he did this because of the prophecy. Maybe he knew about the Others and it is not hard to believe because almost everybody have heard stories about them. Maybe he knew that some day the prophecy will happen and the night that never ends will come. on the other hand he knew that another prophecy tells that a prince from his blood can stop them. I think Dany's vision about R and his children was before war and before the tourney. maybe he somehow understands(I remember Jaime says that Rhaegar was very gloomy but after something which I don't remember he understands that he has to do something) that the prince should be from the blood of the Starks and Targs and that's why he scaped with Lyanna. but I still don't understand why Lyanna would want to go with him. Don't tell she falls in love and stuff because it does not match her character and it is very very cheap.

thought on this plz.

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I don't think Rhaegar's scape with Lyanna was really about love and stuff. It is more understandable to think that he did this because of the prophecy. Maybe he knew about the Others and it is not hard to believe because almost everybody have heard stories about them. Maybe he knew that some day the prophecy will happen and the night that never ends will come. on the other hand he knew that another prophecy tells that a prince from his blood can stop them. I think Dany's vision about R and his children was before war and before the tourney. maybe he somehow understands(I remember Jaime says that Rhaegar was very gloomy but after something which I don't remember he understands that he has to do something) that the prince should be from the blood of the Starks and Targs and that's why he scaped with Lyanna. but I still don't understand why Lyanna would want to go with him. Don't tell she falls in love and stuff because it does not match her character and it is very very cheap.

thought on this plz.

There's actually some evidence that she did love Rhaegar or was at least infatuated with him. He sang a song that moved her to tears, and his love for her is spoken of in the books (e.g. Barristan, I believe, saying Rhaegar "loved his Lady Lyanna"). It's not out of character for her to be in love with him. What's out of character is the idea that she would allow herself to be taken against her will. A woman can be strong and independent and still fall in love, I promise.

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I don't say it was against her will, and I don't say she can't fall in love. This theory that they fall in love and they scape and etc is really really very cheap, it will like one of these bad Hollywood (even Bollywood :) ) romantic movies. It kinda ruins the awesomeness of the series

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There are a couple of questions that I have about how much prophesy drove Rhaegar.

While in my opinion I think that he was mindful of the prophesies, again, I do wonder how really driven by them he was as pertains to Lyanna.

There is something in this that reads to me that these may be two separate issues.

My feeling on prophesy is that it is not something deliberately fulfilled, but something that preternaturally falls into place, which is why I suspect that whatever "obcession" he had with prophesy may have been replaced by obcession with Lyanna.

He stops focusing on prophesy, focuses on Lyanna, thus truly fulfilling prophesy with the birth of Jon.

I think it probable that along with prophesy, his next concern was for a "spare to the heir."

(Many Kings in History have become so because their older Brother died).

Even Kevan Lannister lamented that if only he'd married Cersei, she could have given him the sons he wanted with silver manes and purple eyes.

So, at least some had the idea that there might be more of a concern about the safe continuation of the dynasty, and Kevan along with Selmy is another POV I tend to trust.

Though biased towards Cersei, he nonetheless was honest.

However, if he was so concerned about The Others, the Wall, or prophesy, there are some things he didn't do that he could have physically done rather than produce children.

Why didn't he use his prestige and name to fund the Wall, or to get better recruits?

That is something he could have done.

In the speculation he was trying to create this powerful triad of Aegon and his sisters, why did he name his firstborn daughter Rhaenys when in the Conquerers triad, his older sister was Visenya?

That and the fact we are always hearing from various POV's from Visrys/Dany, Kevan Lannister, etc. that if only he'd married this one, if only he'd married that one, or if he hadn't married Elia, he never would have run off with the wolf girl.

I'm not trying to be a cynic, and I'm not anti-Rhaegar, I just speculate IMHO, that there was at least the practical and emotional driving his actions as much as the mystical, and again, it doesn't make him a villain.

It just may make him as selfish as anyone else who falls in love, and unfortunately for all his attempts to gauge the future, he did not foresee his death, Lyannas, or Elias and his family's.

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I don't say it was against her will, and I don't say she can't fall in love. This theory that they fall in love and they scape and etc is really really very cheap, it will like one of these bad Hollywood (even Bollywood :) ) romantic movies. It kinda ruins the awesomeness of the series

But they didn't escape. They're both dead.

It might be cheap if the couple falls in love, runs off, lives happily ever after, etc. They fell in love and may have eloped, but they inadvertently caused a war that resulted in killing their own family members, thousands of people and themselves. If you see this as a cheap Hollywood romcom, I don't know what to tell you.

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