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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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I think Lya could have been in love with Rhaegar and still thought it was important to head off with him and have children for other reasons. She's heard Old Nan's stories too. She would want to give the North it's best chance against the horror awaiting them. If she thought that meant skipping out on her arrangement with Robert and being with the man she loved instead, so much the better. I can see how she might have been convinced for selfish reasons as well as being able to tell herself that she was somehow doing what was best for the North.

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Okay I don't have my books in the same city as me currently and I'm really wanting to go back and re-read all the L+R=J stuff but i blew through three of the books in about two weeks so they've all kind of blended together, Ned's dream sequence about Lyanna in the bed of blood is in GoT right? after Jaime stabs him?

I read the first book and immediately assumed R+L=J but now i'm trying to remember why I thought that!

Thanks!

yep, ned's dream sequence about lyanna is after jaime stabs him.

my friends and i recently started the whole series (and by recently i mean december...i'm the furthest into the series -- about 25 % through ADwD). as we read GoT, i totally thought R+L = J, right off the bat. my friends who are reading it, too, thought i was nuts, that it was impossible, that it had to be ashara dayne and/or wylla....i always disagreed.

flashfoward to the others finishing ASoS, and they all now totally agree.

like you i don't know why i immediately thought R+L=J. my friends have said that i probably suspected because a) i'm a mystery buff and pretty good at putting clues together; B) i'm a writer myself and may be more clued into writer's intentions; and c) i'm a careful reader.

i still stand by the theory and i think it makes the most sense out of anything else. (this website does a pretty good job of going through each of the jon snow's mother theories and putting it on a timeline -- i think it might be under the FAQs). if it turns out we're all wrong, and R+L = J is just fan-guessing, i'll eat my hat.

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i'm 99.9% sure it was his original intention. at this point, i'm only 90% sure, especially because he seems like the type of writer who would see that everyone figured it out, so he would change it. i sure hope he doesn't deliberately do it to mess with us...

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I took the crowning to be Rhaegar's subtle appreciation for Lyanna's tourney skills. She defeated the men she challenged and was apparently one of the last people standing (last three?).

Did you not bother reading the explanation and quotes I gave you last time proving this to be false? Or did it just not stick?

She was current top three at the end of the second day out of five, and didn't turn up for the 3-5 days. Undefeated yes, but no where near the 'last people standing' or 'last three'.

Sorry, but I made quite an effort to find and go through the actual quotes for you before.

There's actually some evidence that she did love Rhaegar or was at least infatuated with him. He sang a song that moved her to tears, and his love for her is spoken of in the books (e.g. Barristan, I believe, saying Rhaegar "loved his Lady Lyanna"). It's not out of character for her to be in love with him. What's out of character is the idea that she would allow herself to be taken against her will. A woman can be strong and independent and still fall in love, I promise.

Not to mention she died clutching the faded rose petals that matched the crown Rhaegar gave her.

I'm going to have to disagree with everyone. It was love, love, love, love. At one point Robert says, Rhaegar took her because he wanted her (I'm pretty sure that it was Robert who said that). And then they went to the Tower of Joy and had pure, unfettered JOY.

Unfortunately, Robert believing anything merely decreases its likelihood of beng true </exaggeration>.

Not that I necessarily think there wasn't love involved bythe time they absconded together, just making the point that taking anythng Robert says about Lyanna or Rhaegar as 'evidence' is gross stupidity. The man is wilfully and aggressively deluded on these subjects.

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i'm 99.9% sure it was his original intention. at this point, i'm only 90% sure, especially because he seems like the type of writer who would see that everyone figured it out, so he would change it. i sure hope he doesn't deliberately do it to mess with us...

If it was his original intention for rhaegar and lyanna to be jon's parents and if he will be the promised prince than that would require a whole lot of story reconstruction. I think it would be trouble than it's worth for him to do that based on it being figured out. But if he had someone else in mind for his parents I think there is still alot of explaining to do.

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i'm 99.9% sure it was his original intention. at this point, i'm only 90% sure, especially because he seems like the type of writer who would see that everyone figured it out, so he would change it. i sure hope he doesn't deliberately do it to mess with us...

Actually he's specifically addressed the issue of what happens if the readers figure out something that he's trying to keep hidden and he said HE WOULD NOT CHANGE HIS PLAN. He's not writing this story to piss his readers off, he's not writing it to throw them for a loop, he is not writing it to stand as a buck of every sci-fi/fantasy trope, he is simply writing a very complex multi-layered story. And some of that means that he's writing hints to stuff that will be revealed in full later, which of course some fans will piece together and some won't. He's said specifically that he won't punish the fans for seeing where he is going or picking up on hints that he himself put in there.

Not to mention that at this point he would have to unwrite a lot of what's already been published for it to work with what's already been written, and that just isn't happening. If R+L don't = J then he's written the mystery of Jon's parents to go nowhere...cause frankly if he is Ned's son, who his mother is (because he would definitely be a bastard then) doesn't matter at all and isn't worth mentioning in the first place let alone making a very big secret of.

ETA: I was sold on R+L=J by the end of GOT but I didn't start thinking love between R+L until the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, though admittingly the idea of Rhaegar raping Lyanna didn't seem to fit with the details we got about him from everyone but Robert. In fact it was Ned not thinking of Rhaegar as a scum-sucking bastard despite having his "kidnapped and raped" sister die in his arms that really started things in motion for me and the first clue that there might be a lot more there. Plus the fact that if Lyanna was away for about a year chance were she had a child/was pregnant for a bit even if it wasn't necessarily Jon. Eventually it all sort of clicked.

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Why would Rhaegar alone be the sole person in Westeros to believe in some impending apocalypse based on the invasion of an alien force of mythic beings? What made him believe it when none others did? Did he have a dream about that too? Was Bloodraven involved somehow? If he did believe, why were no more men sent to the Wall in advance of TPTWP? Could he not impress the direness of the situation on Aerys?

That's a great question. The easy answer would be: Targ-madness/obsession tendencies. But now that we know about Bloodraven and his possible influence on events from beyond the Wall, it's not impossible he had a finger it it. I always assumed it was a dream Rhaegar had, indeed, but could he have gotten in touch, face to face, with someone who knew more on this subject? Someone from beyond the narrow sea, or maybe even Marwyn?

There are a couple of questions that I have about how much prophesy drove Rhaegar.

While in my opinion I think that he was mindful of the prophesies, again, I do wonder how really driven by them he was as pertains to Lyanna.

There is something in this that reads to me that these may be two separate issues.

My feeling on prophesy is that it is not something deliberately fulfilled, but something that preternaturally falls into place, which is why I suspect that whatever "obcession" he had with prophesy may have been replaced by obcession with Lyanna.

He stops focusing on prophesy, focuses on Lyanna, thus truly fulfilling prophesy with the birth of Jon.

I think it probable that along with prophesy, his next concern was for a "spare to the heir."

(Many Kings in History have become so because their older Brother died).

Even Kevan Lannister lamented that if only he'd married Cersei, she could have given him the sons he wanted with silver manes and purple eyes.

So, at least some had the idea that there might be more of a concern about the safe continuation of the dynasty, and Kevan along with Selmy is another POV I tend to trust.

Though biased towards Cersei, he nonetheless was honest.

However, if he was so concerned about The Others, the Wall, or prophesy, there are some things he didn't do that he could have physically done rather than produce children.

Why didn't he use his prestige and name to fund the Wall, or to get better recruits?

That is something he could have done.

In the speculation he was trying to create this powerful triad of Aegon and his sisters, why did he name his firstborn daughter Rhaenys when in the Conquerers triad, his older sister was Visenya?

That and the fact we are always hearing from various POV's from Visrys/Dany, Kevan Lannister, etc. that if only he'd married this one, if only he'd married that one, or if he hadn't married Elia, he never would have run off with the wolf girl.

I'm not trying to be a cynic, and I'm not anti-Rhaegar, I just speculate IMHO, that there was at least the practical and emotional driving his actions as much as the mystical, and again, it doesn't make him a villain.

It just may make him as selfish as anyone else who falls in love, and unfortunately for all his attempts to gauge the future, he did not foresee his death, Lyannas, or Elias and his family's.

*One of those rare occasions when :agree: with everything someone posts*

I think Lya could have been in love with Rhaegar and still thought it was important to head off with him and have children for other reasons. She's heard Old Nan's stories too. She would want to give the North it's best chance against the horror awaiting them. If she thought that meant skipping out on her arrangement with Robert and being with the man she loved instead, so much the better. I can see how she might have been convinced for selfish reasons as well as being able to tell herself that she was somehow doing what was best for the North.

We have no reason to think Lyanna believed in Old Nan's stories. Think about it - of the six Stark kids we know better, only Bran believes in them, and Bran has powers so it's a different case. And why would she think a child from her and Rhaegar would save the world against the Others? What evidence is there that she knew about the "song of ice and fire" story or thought it was real?

I don't know why people resist the idea that she could have simply fallen in love and eloped so much. Just because she is described as similar to Arya, doesn't mean she'll act like a ten-year-old girl or refuse a gorgeous guy if she didn't have a hidden reason behind her actions.

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That's a great question. The easy answer would be: Targ-madness/obsession tendencies. But now that we know about Bloodraven and his possible influence on events from beyond the Wall, it's not impossible he had a finger it it. I always assumed it was a dream Rhaegar had, indeed, but could he have gotten in touch, face to face, with someone who knew more on this subject? Someone from beyond the narrow sea, or maybe even Marwyn?

...

We have no reason to think Lyanna believed in Old Nan's stories. Think about it - of the six Stark kids we know better, only Bran believes in them, and Bran has powers so it's a different case. And why would she think a child from her and Rhaegar would save the world against the Others? What evidence is there that she knew about the "song of ice and fire" story or thought it was real?

I don't know why people resist the idea that she could have simply fallen in love and eloped so much. Just because she is described as similar to Arya, doesn't mean she'll act like a ten-year-old girl or refuse a gorgeous guy if she didn't have a hidden reason behind her actions.

I think if a prince whom I admired greatly came to me and laid it all out, I might start to believe the stories I was told as a child, though.

It may be that simple. She might have asked herself one crucial question: why are these stories still told around Winterfell? Just to scare some kids? These answers may have surfaced: 1) there are lessons to be learned in them, or 2) there are good reasons to remember (the North remembers).

I resist that only love drove her because I feel she has the same adherence to honor and duty that seems standard to all the Starks. Something beyond wild desire, love, infatuation must have convinced her that following her heart was the correct course. I simply doubt she's been taught to behave so selfishly possibly at the direct expense of her family, and if she is TKotLT, we know she has a sense of honor and justice. It's my gut, basically. I don't think she is hot-blooded enough to run away for Love (when the realities of the situation seem clear: it would put her father in a hard situation, possibly causing her house to lose face and honor if she isn't safely married to the prince in the end, plus there is a(-nother) wife and children involved—she could end up hurting a lot of people if everything isn't well-prepared and the results don't fall in line with her probable expectations).

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i'm 99.9% sure it was his original intention. at this point, i'm only 90% sure, especially because he seems like the type of writer who would see that everyone figured it out, so he would change it. i sure hope he doesn't deliberately do it to mess with us...

Martin has said he stays away from these blogs because they are overwhelming, and the fans have pretty much thought up everything and anything that could happen up to JonCon being Jons Mother.

He has said he doesn't care who figures it out, but he doesn't change the story.

After all, those of us who think this are really are a small percentage, the casual fan who will watch the series in the tradition of "Rome," or "The Sopranos" and will not transition to the books as some of us have, has not figured it out yet, which I why I suspect they leave out Neds flashbacks.

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Martin has said he stays away from these blogs because they are overwhelming, and the fans have pretty much thought up everything and anything that could happen up to JonCon being Jons Mother.

He has said he doesn't care who figures it out, but he doesn't change the story.

After all, those of us who think this are really are a small percentage, the casual fan who will watch the series in the tradition of "Rome," or "The Sopranos" and will not transition to the books as some of us have, has not figured it out yet, which I why I suspect they leave out Neds flashbacks.

I have a serious problem with that. Unless they drop clues in the series where the book didn't r+l = j is going to come out of left field. And if they show hints late in the series it will cheapen it seeming like a throw in right before the big reveal.

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I have a serious problem with that. Unless they drop clues in the series where the book didn't r+l = j is going to come out of left field. And if they show hints late in the series it will cheapen it seeming like a throw in right before the big reveal.

I take your point, but if the show maintains it's momentum and the ratings are good at the point where the reveal could take place, I'm sure Martin will work with them to figure that out.

He already is working with them, for which they are lucky this Author has a background in script writing.

But, first he has to finish the books, or get to the part where he decides this will happen before it can happen in the series.

Entertainment in notoriously fickle, so the series could lose popularity with the casual fan before Martin even gets to that point.

I hope not, but it's a ratings game, so it will depend on that.

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I resist that only love drove her because I feel she has the same adherence to honor and duty that seems standard to all the Starks.

Does it?

We see no particular adherence to duty from Lyanna ever, and quite a lot of evidence she routinely disobeyed her father, or at least stretched the limits of his approval. The only evidence we see relating to honour is her beating off the squires attacking the little crannogmen, and we assume the statements of the KotLT for those knights beaten to 'teach their squires honour'. That could easily come out of nothing more than a sense of unfairness, where the only 'honour' involved is for teh strong not to pick on the weak.

We see little of duty or honour from Brandon.

We having virtually nothing to go on for Rickard.

We have little or nothing to go on for Benjen.

So really, this famous 'Stark Honour' seems basically to come from Ned, and passed to his children, not be a general Stark thing.

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Ned was not born in a vacuum. He is not the only one to pass on what are clearly Stark aphorisms and traditions. Do you really believe, for example, that Rickard did not hand out justice first-hand? Maybe a more modern audience would have difficulty grasping it, but ppl in such a society wouldn't be surrounded by fresh and novel ideas, and they uphold tradition and family values. There is nothing to suggest that any Stark has a decadent personality.

EDIT

Benjen has not yet appeared as a deserter. He seems to keep his oaths at least. He also tried to talk realistically about the NW with Jon—also something he didn't have to do, considering that the NW is in desperate need of new recruits. AFAWK, he fulfills his duty, either to remain the Stark at Winterfell or to honor the vows to the NW. Until he turns up otherwise, I think we're safe to conclude that he behaves with honor.

Brandon, he wouldn't have made his major error in political judgment if he did not hold his sister to some idea of honor. He has one example of a lady with obviously sour grapes maligning his name. He may even have been a lady's man. But he took LF seriously enough to actually duel with him, and he allowed Cat to sway him from slaughtering the little bugger, even after being challenged. The duel couldn't have brought him any personal glory, so it must have been a point of honor or protocol that made him face LF and treat him like any other challenger.

If Lyanna did in fact become the KotLT to teach bullies to pick on someone their own size, this is still honor. I'm not sure how a lesson in fairness can fail to touch on honor, actually. Also, Ned still thinks well of Lyanna. He does not seem to think well of people who do not behave with honor. He is absolutely torn up by Robert's more vicious decisions, and Robert is his BFF. He would feel more conflicted, I conclude, if he thought Lyanna behaved in a way that would postively shame him and the family. Instead, he reflects about Lyanna's not caring much for Robert without real heat or blame.

In other words, I think it is a safe conclusion to draw that the Starks have a code of honor by which they abide. We see enough of the Northmen that we can certainly draw the conclusion that they set themselves apart from southerners who have a less steady code that they follow.

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I think if a prince whom I admired greatly came to me and laid it all out, I might start to believe the stories I was told as a child, though.

It may be that simple. She might have asked herself one crucial question: why are these stories still told around Winterfell? Just to scare some kids? These answers may have surfaced: 1) there are lessons to be learned in them, or 2) there are good reasons to remember (the North remembers).

I resist that only love drove her because I feel she has the same adherence to honor and duty that seems standard to all the Starks. Something beyond wild desire, love, infatuation must have convinced her that following her heart was the correct course. I simply doubt she's been taught to behave so selfishly possibly at the direct expense of her family, and if she is TKotLT, we know she has a sense of honor and justice. It's my gut, basically. I don't think she is hot-blooded enough to run away for Love (when the realities of the situation seem clear: it would put her father in a hard situation, possibly causing her house to lose face and honor if she isn't safely married to the prince in the end, plus there is a(-nother) wife and children involved—she could end up hurting a lot of people if everything isn't well-prepared and the results don't fall in line with her probable expectations).

I think both of you capture the complicated nature of the issue.

Do I think that Lyanna was driven by any prophesy?

IMHO, probably not. While she was of the old religion, I have a feeling she was not the most "devout" individual in the world, and tended to focus on the here and now.

Was she driven by honor?

Yes, her actions point to that, so I don't think she would go off with a married man, even if she loved him.

Given what we know of Starks and honor, as well as an expectation of self-sacrifice, she might even feel more inclined to marry Robert, despite what she felt about either man.

(Brandon could very well have loved either Lady Dustin, or even Ashara, but he fully intended to do his duty and marry Caitlyn, and he was the most wild of them all).

Did she love Rhaegar?

I think so, but again, it doesn't mean it didn't come without personal conflict, and of the two of them, my gut tells me she would have been the most saavy of the two in terms of what it could mean for them. And if the promise she made Ned keep was to keep Jons idenity a secret and raise him as his own, then I think that is a sign of her more practical nature.

The kidnapping/abduction.

He could have abducted her knowing her personal conflict and resistance, thereby taking the hit to his honor to preserve hers.

She was taken at swordpoint, at least according to what Dany heard.

What context she heard it in is debatable of course, but since it's dopy Dany and she's viewing it through the prism of a romantic event could mean the opposite, and that it was a violent event, or at least started out innocent and got out of hand.

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Ned was not born in a vacuum. He is not the only one to pass on what are clearly Stark aphorisms and traditions. Do you really believe, for example, that Rickard did not hand out justice first-hand? Maybe a more modern audience would have difficulty grasping it, but ppl in such a society wouldn't be surrounded by fresh and novel ideas, and they uphold tradition and family values. There is nothing to suggest that any Stark has a decadent personality.

EDIT

Benjen has not yet appeared as a deserter. He seems to keep his oaths at least. He also tried to talk realistically about the NW with Jon—also something he didn't have to do, considering that the NW is in desperate need of new recruits. AFAWK, he fulfills his duty, either to remain the Stark at Winterfell or to honor the vows to the NW. Until he turns up otherwise, I think we're safe to conclude that he behaves with honor.

Brandon, he wouldn't have made his major error in political judgment if he did not hold his sister to some idea of honor. He has one example of a lady with obviously sour grapes maligning his name. He may even have been a lady's man. But he took LF seriously enough to actually duel with him, and he allowed Cat to sway him from slaughtering the little bugger, even after being challenged. The duel couldn't have brought him any personal glory, so it must have been a point of honor or protocol that made him face LF and treat him like any other challenger.

If Lyanna did in fact become the KotLT to teach bullies to pick on someone their own size, this is still honor. I'm not sure how a lesson in fairness can fail to touch on honor, actually. Also, Ned still thinks well of Lyanna. He does not seem to think well of people who do not behave with honor. He is absolutely torn up by Robert's more vicious decisions, and Robert is his BFF. He would feel more conflicted, I conclude, if he thought Lyanna behaved in a way that would postively shame him and the family. Instead, he reflects about Lyanna's not caring much for Robert without real heat or blame.

In other words, I think it is a safe conclusion to draw that the Starks have a code of honor by which they abide. We see enough of the Northmen that we can certainly draw the conclusion that they set themselves apart from southerners who have a less steady code that they follow.

Agreed.

They are one of the few Houses that did not employ their own Headsman, because they believed if you were going to take a life, you did it yourself instead of passing the dirty work off to someone else.

Also, they don't have the following they do from the North based just on prestige, or fear alone.

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