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R+L=J v.20


Angalin

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1. Aegon V was labeled a "true dragon," the "dragon" who "hatched" at Whitewalls (read The Mystery Knight). He died at Summerhall.

2. Martin himself has said explicitly, in all caps, that Targaryens are not immune to fire.

3. Dany herself has become one of the Targs going around claiming that she's a dragon and blood of the dragon or whatever. So what does that tell you?

That she either isn't a true dragon. Or, being one of the lone surviving targaryens has to preach her gospel to get people to believe. Had she been born into a world where the targaryens were still the royal family she might not have had to be so vocal. I'm just playing devils advocate. But I'm starting to be swayed in the direction that dany may not be a true dragon and possibly she is the fake dragon. So now I know Aegon is the real dragon. Maybe he was the one meant to see the HotUd.
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That she either isn't a true dragon. Or, being one of the lone surviving targaryens has to preach her gospel to get people to believe. Had she been born into a world where the targaryens were still the royal family she might not have had to be so vocal. I'm just playing devils advocate. But I'm starting to be swayed in the direction that dany may not be a true dragon and possibly she is the fake dragon. So now I know Aegon is the real dragon. Maybe he was the one meant to see the HotUd.

The point is, there's no such thing as a "true dragon" Targaryen who's always immune to fire. Aegon V -- a totally different Aegon than the one Dany saw -- was killed in a fire at Summerhall and would have been "a true dragon." Baelor Breakspear was a "true dragon" and he died from a blow to the head. Dany is an actual Targaryen, she's not a fraud there. A "true dragon" is, I think, based on what sort of person you are -- both Aegon V and Baelor were fair, relatively humble, decent people. It had nothing to do with superpowers they might have possessed. The Targs who ended up going crazy were the ones who clung too hard to the "I'm a dragon" mythos. But crazy or sane, none of them are immune to fire, bar Dany's one time on the pyre. Jon, for instance, is not any more or less of a "dragon" because he burned his hand fighting a wight.

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I've never thought of this (L + R = J) before reading this forum thread. Now this theory is going to drive me mad until the next books :(

http://www.westeros...._Foreshadowing/

Lyanna preagnant = 9 months

Jon with Wylla = 3~5 months (?)

Jon without Wylla = that's my question, because "had long been parted" is relative. For a baby 1 month is a long period of time.

So, Ned 'rescued' Lyanna 1 year and 3~4 months after the kidnapping. Is this period the same said at AGoT?

But this quote from GRRM '

corroborates' with the L + R = J theory. Jon was raised by Wylla, and both Ned and Lyanna (probably Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne too) asked her to fake being Jon's mom.

I can totally imagine Arthur Dayne asking Wylla to help Lyanna and Jon. And also, since the Kingsguard was guarding Lyanna after Rhaegar and Aerys died, it's kind of obvious that they were protecting the new king, fantastic. I'm wondering when Martin is going to reveal this to us.

welcome!

I hadn't realized either of the R+L=J equation when I first came in here and I was really shocked by the fact that people thought it was quite obvious and a cliché and Martin shouldn't go there :D

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I've never thought of this (L + R = J) before reading this forum thread. Now this theory is going to drive me mad until the next books :(

http://www.westeros...._Foreshadowing/

Lyanna preagnant = 9 months

Jon with Wylla = 3~5 months (?)

Jon without Wylla = that's my question, because "had long been parted" is relative. For a baby 1 month is a long period of time.

So, Ned 'rescued' Lyanna 1 year and 3~4 months after the kidnapping. Is this period the same said at AGoT?

"Ned" refers to Edric Dayne in that quote, not Eddard Stark.

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The point is, there's no such thing as a "true dragon" Targaryen who's always immune to fire. Aegon V -- a totally different Aegon than the one Dany saw -- was killed in a fire at Summerhall and would have been "a true dragon." Baelor Breakspear was a "true dragon" and he died from a blow to the head. Dany is an actual Targaryen, she's not a fraud there. A "true dragon" is, I think, based on what sort of person you are -- both Aegon V and Baelor were fair, relatively humble, decent people. It had nothing to do with superpowers they might have possessed. The Targs who ended up going crazy were the ones who clung too hard to the "I'm a dragon" mythos. But crazy or sane, none of them are immune to fire, bar Dany's one time on the pyre. Jon, for instance, is not any more or less of a "dragon" because he burned his hand fighting a wight.

we dont really have many occasions to reference to concerning danearys to decide one way or the other. Maybe the 3 heads of the dragon will be immune if it's a literal statement that they the blood of the dragon. You're right definitely nothing stable to go around saying they are immune. But I think we will find out who the 3 heads are and it will involve them being in fire sans magic. Jon aegon and dany.
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we dont really have many occasions to reference to concerning danearys to decide one way or the other. Maybe the 3 heads of the dragon will be immune if it's a literal statement that they the blood of the dragon. You're right definitely nothing stable to go around saying they are immune. But I think we will find out who the 3 heads are and it will involve them being in fire sans magic. Jon aegon and dany.

I ... strongly doubt that, but go ahead and believe what you want. Martin has said that NO TARGARYENS ARE IMMUNE and that what happened with Dany was a one-time "miraculous" event and won't be repeated. I have no idea why he'd be so emphatic about Targs not being immune if he was going to turn around and make them immune at some point other than the pyre. He called it a fan "misconception" that he wanted to correct.

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welcome!

I hadn't realized either of the R+L=J equation when I first came in here and I was really shocked by the fact that people thought it was quite obvious and a cliché and Martin shouldn't go there :D

I'm still shocked, haha.

"Ned" refers to Edric Dayne in that quote, not Eddard Stark.

Uhn, so it changes a bit. But it's even better for the L + R = J theory, because Ned (the Stark one) could have taken Wylla with him until delivering 'Dawn' to House Dayne, therefore, Lyanna could have died just days after Jon's birth.

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Really? We're still arguing this?

If you truly have the misinterpretation that the Targs are fire-immune, go ahead with that. But I believe that was argued for 20+ pages, ending up in a locked thread.

Please don't drag that fight here, there's no need for it. Every argument for and against that topic has been made.

ETA: if you can't believe the author of the series, then you can't expect to be taken seriously.

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Uhn, so it changes a bit. But it's even better for the L + R = J theory, because Ned (the Stark one) could have taken Wylla with him until delivering 'Dawn' to House Dayne, therefore, Lyanna could have died just days after Jon's birth.

I think that's how most people think it went down.

I think Wylla was Lyanna's midwife/wet nurse, brought by Arthur from Starfall, and Ned brought her back to Starfall when he returned Dawn. It was during this time that they would have come up with the cover story.

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I ... strongly doubt that, but go ahead and believe what you want. Martin has said that NO TARGARYENS ARE IMMUNE and that what happened with Dany was a one-time "miraculous" event and won't be repeated. I have no idea why he'd be so emphatic about Targs not being immune if he was going to turn around and make them immune at some point other than the pyre. He called it a fan "misconception" that he wanted to correct.

Him saying that must mean that a situation will arise when it is relevant. I didn't know he said that. I thought it was more vague to the effect that she is not necessarily immune. But I'm more of the belief that the dragons feel somethin from them through a blood connection but even danys dragons being born through blood magic may not share the sensitivity that a valyrian dragon would have to aegon the conqueror. I see what you're saying though. Don't expect to see dany walking around like inferno man.
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Jon being the child of L and R aside, I think Martin may have sort of given away that there's something important going on that had to do with Lyanna and Rhaegar when he gave this interview last year.

http://www.scotcampus.com/201112george-r-r-martin

Either he sort of let it slip that their history is important to the story, or he did it on purpose because of all the fan discussion concerning this. I don't think he would have mentioned them by name here if he was just speaking of the established roles they have in history.

“Well there’ll be a few characters you’ve not seen who’ll show up in these final volumes yes, and certainly Ned despite being gone has a very large presence in this series. He still casts a long shadow as indeed do other dead people, some of whom have never appeared in the books like Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. The shadows of their past very much impinge on the present and the future in Westeros.”
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Jon being the child of L and R aside, I think Martin may have sort of given away that there's something important going on that had to do with Lyanna and Rhaegar when he gave this interview last year.

http://www.scotcampu...orge-r-r-martin

Either he sort of let it slip that their history is important to the story, or he did it on purpose because of all the fan discussion concerning this. I don't think he would have mentioned them by name here if he was just speaking of the established roles they have in history.

I like the sound of that; it just seems another confirmation of what 90% of the die-hard fans already believe to be true. But I wonder why he couldn't simply say we will meet Howland Reed, since there's not really much alternative to that in learning about R+L=J, the complete version. Unless the theories are correct and we've already met him?

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welcome!

I hadn't realized either of the R+L=J equation when I first came in here and I was really shocked by the fact that people thought it was quite obvious and a cliché and Martin shouldn't go there :D

I only ever heard of the books because of the show. I've read them all now and I can count on one hand how many books I've read in my life. Hopefully will need the second hand soon. There are going to be plenty of people who only watch the show and I would barely know who rhaegar is without the books. Now I won't even hold a convo with anyone who isn't at least done ASoS. I've turned into one of those smug you know whats who looks down upon people who only watch the show. All jokes aside there is no way to catch on this from the show and I don't understand why there wasn't the slightest clip of neds dream. Makes me nervous this isn't the major detail we think it is. Now I can pretty much recite the books and the show. The conversation between cersei and Robert would've been the perfect opportunity to drop somethin in.
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I think the reason why the flashbacks were not shown, is because visually, it's a dead give away.

Clues spaced between hundreds of pages and five books, are less obvious, but if they had shown the TOJ scene for expample, with a young Ned and his sister, that would be much more impactful.

I wonder how they will handle it on television the part where Selmy shows up in Danys camp?

In the books, you didn't know who he was, but if you see him, it's going to be, "theres Selmy."

The House of the Undying is also questionable, because up until now, we hear of no actor being cast as Rhaegar, and I don't think you can have those scenes without Rhaegar, Elia, and baby Aegon with the mention of there must be another.

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Agreed, Alia, they still have Meera who may easily be adapted to tell the "sadder tale" along with TKotLT story. Howland is still around. If Little Ned comes into it, he may be granted more knowledge. Dany could hear a more detailed version of the story from someone (interesting if it were QM), or she could see more in the House of the Undying (if they cast Rhaegar). It's also possible Ashara knows all and can reveal it, or Melisandre could be written to "see but misinterpret" per usual. There are ways they can work it in if they're determined. In the end, Bran could see them marry, if they in fact do marry in a godswood. Whatever they do. I just hope they don't write the ToJ completely out if R+L=J and that Martin is happy with what they do instead.

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Agreed, Alia, they still have Meera who may easily be adapted to tell the "sadder tale" along with TKotLT story. Howland is still around. If Little Ned comes into it, he may be granted more knowledge. Dany could hear a more detailed version of the story from someone (interesting if it were QM), or she could see more in the House of the Undying (if they cast Rhaegar). It's also possible Ashara knows all and can reveal it, or Melisandre could be written to "see but misinterpret" per usual. There are ways they can work it in if they're determined. In the end, Bran could see them marry, if they in fact do marry in a godswood. Whatever they do. I just hope they don't write the ToJ completely out if R+L=J and that Martin is happy with what they do instead.

I think the TOJ scene could come in briefly midway, and it will be so quick if you blink you won't see it, or they may employ other cinematic methods to get the point across, without actually revealing anything.

And I get the feeling that Martin is working very closely with them, because they really can't do it without him at this point.

(They may have bitten off a bit more than they can chew, and are forunate that Martin used to work in Hollywood as a writer/producer himself and can help).

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To me if you have to go around saying you're the dragon i.e. Viserys you're almost definitely not. But I think the true dragons who may have dragons blood in them are the only ones who dragons would be sensitive to. Danearys dragons were also born into magic so their sensitivity to her could be a result of the magic. In reference to the series danerys stepping into the steaming hot water and holdin the hot eggs has some significance to her being not so much immune to fire but definitely something in her blood to repel and protect her from fire. I agree we can't just go around saying "he got burnt he's not a trgaryen" but I think there are targaryens that could survive a bad fire. But like I said if Someone knows if there was a targaryen "dragon" killed at summerhall then we can probably shut the book on this.

Well, there is an example - Aegon V, famous as Egg. He was exactly the same as Dany (very hot bath, hight tolerance to the Sun heat, not even sweating etc), but he died in Summerhall tragedy.

ETA: I've just realized Apple Martini has already made my point. ;)

Screaming Knight, I agree that there is some kind of bond between Targ heat-resistant blood and the dragons. As far as we know, they were the only ones "to tame" the dragons or to be able to have them (the same way as Starks are bond to their direwolves, but as it seems without warging abilities).

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I think that's how most people think it went down.

I think Wylla was Lyanna's midwife/wet nurse, brought by Arthur from Starfall, and Ned brought her back to Starfall when he returned Dawn. It was during this time that they would have come up with the cover story.

They also had to find another wetnurse, and one who did not know Wylla , because otherwise she might raise question when and how Wylla and Lord Stark ever met - or did they make up a cover-up for that as well? Unless Wylla was re-assigned to the ToJ from the very beginning, meaning she was gone from Starfall long enough to make the story believable. For the smallfolk of Starfall, she was sent "somewhere north", to be of service to some lord, and when she returned with some lord and a babe, no-one really wondered much.

Edit: I'm still not getting it all right, though. If she was originally from Starfall, she definitely had to be away from there for at least 9 months, or else she couldn't claim Jon as hers by Ned. However, if she was gone for so long, she wouldn't be able to be a wetnurse, unless she took a child with her, or got pregnant meanwhile. Or did she not nurse Jon at all and only started nursing the Dayne kids afterwards?

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They also had to find another wetnurse, and one who did not know Wylla , because otherwise she might raise question when and how Wylla and Lord Stark ever met - or did they make up a cover-up for that as well? Unless Wylla was re-assigned to the ToJ from the very beginning, meaning she was gone from Starfall long enough to make the story believable. For the smallfolk of Starfall, she was sent "somewhere north", to be of service to some lord, and when she returned with some lord and a babe, no-one really wondered much.

I agree secrecy might have been a factor in why Wylla was replaced, but we shouldnt think it is the only possible reason. She might have had a husband or older children and not gone North because she didn't want to go on a one way trip to Winterfell.

I think Wylla was perhaps replaced by another wetnurse after Ned rejoined Robert in Kings Landing. That would explain why Robert at one point knew the name Wylla, although he had forgotten it by AGOT.

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I agree secrecy might have been a factor in why Wylla was replaced, but we shouldnt think it is the only possible reason. She might have had a husband or older children and not gone North because she didn't want to go on a one way trip to Winterfell.

I think Wylla was perhaps replaced by another wetnurse after Ned rejoined Robert in Kings Landing. That would explain why Robert at one point knew the name Wylla, although he had forgotten it by AGOT.

I think it would not be a problem to arrange her trip back, once another nurse was found in the north, or somewhere on the way. However, I don't think Wylla ever went to KL - Robert mentiones never seeing her, and in case something went wrong and the secret leaked, it would be better is Jon was nowhere near Robert. I believe Ned went to KL alone and sent Jon directly to Winterfell, possibly with Howland Reed.

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