R+L=J v.20

[the Remarkable Other]

Since Wylla was used by Ned as a cover story, in front of Robert at least, I don't think he would want her anywhere near KL or Winterfell. Most likely she remained in Dorne after Ned left.

[Arya Targaryen]

All jokes aside there is no way to catch on this from the show and I don't understand why there wasn't the slightest clip of neds dream.

I would disagree. I watched the show before reading the books and my first question was: Is Jon Lyanna's son by that Targ prince (I couldn't recall his name :cool4: ). After reading the books it became sort of obvious. But it IS possible for those who don't read the books to work it out. Or at least to ask a question whether it is possible (timeline and stuff)

[Gala]

I would disagree. I watched the show before reading the books and my first question was: Is Jon Lyanna's son by that Targ prince (I couldn't recall his name :cool4: ). After reading the books it became sort of obvious. But it IS possible for those who don't read the books to work it out. Or at least to ask a question whether it is possible (timeline and stuff)

The same with me! First episode + 1/2 of the second one and I thought "Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son!". Then, of course, I read the books…When I joined this forum I was glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks so.

[Summerqueen]

Arya, Gala—

I read the books first, so I'll never know, but I thought the Jon and Ned at crossroads moment was very powerful. I wondered if watchers could make the leap because the important scenes of the first two episodes deal with illicit relationships, Jon's bastardy, Lyanna's abduction, the cost of being on the Wall. It seemed so obvious to me while watching that Ned really wanted Jon on the Wall and so clear that it wasn't just a matter of him not finding the time to talk to Jon at the crossroads—even a few words would have satisfied him (she's dead, she gave you up, she wanted you to grow up in a better environment, she loved you/us, whatever).

I wonder if those of us who've watched soap operas during our formative years might have had a leg up on guessing R+L=J at that moment. I remember watching my Granny's soaps with her when she babysat me before I entered the school system (my own parents were quite disparaging/disapproving of soap operas, so it was like eating forbidden fruit!), and there always seemed to be some baby daddy or baby switch storyline going on forever. XD Now whenever the issue of infidelity or marital disharmony in general comes up in a TV show, I'm wondering who the REAL father will turn out to be. I blame my Granny! XDD

[Screaming Knight]

I would disagree. I watched the show before reading the books and my first question was: Is Jon Lyanna's son by that Targ prince (I couldn't recall his name :cool4: ). After reading the books it became sort of obvious. But it IS possible for those who don't read the books to work it out. Or at least to ask a question whether it is possible (timeline and stuff)

You should quit your job and be the next columbo. I find it unbelievable you drew that conclusion from the show.

[Screaming Knight]

I knew somethin was up with how upset Ned got when Jon was asking about his mother, but they font even indicate that rhaegar might have even raped lyanna in the show. More that he just abducted and killed her. Watching the show made me draw the conclusion that the Starks and targaryens were warring with each other for some reason or another and that neds family was killed by the royal family. And then after reading the books it did clear it up. No one I know that watches the show even diligently came to that end. The two of you impress me but I think for the majority of tv viewers this is going to confuse them.

[Lady Octarina]

I wonder how they will handle it on television the part where Selmy shows up in Danys camp?

In the books, you didn't know who he was, but if you see him, it's going to be, "theres Selmy."

The House of the Undying is also questionable, because up until now, we hear of no actor being cast as Rhaegar, and I don't think you can have those scenes without Rhaegar, Elia, and baby Aegon with the mention of there must be another.

I think they'll just use a lot of make-up on Selmy to trick us :laugh:

About Rhaegar not being cast... well, he only appears in a flash at the House of the Undying, they'll probably use some uncredited actor for those few seconds. They could cut it from the show, but I don't see why they would do that since those scenes are kind of important to Daenerys's story - unless there is something important in that scene we shouldn't learn about yet?

Arya, Gala—

I read the books first, so I'll never know, but I thought the Jon and Ned at crossroads moment was very powerful. I wondered if watchers could make the leap because the important scenes of the first two episodes deal with illicit relationships, Jon's bastardy, Lyanna's abduction, the cost of being on the Wall. It seemed so obvious to me while watching that Ned really wanted Jon on the Wall and so clear that it wasn't just a matter of him not finding the time to talk to Jon at the crossroads—even a few words would have satisfied him (she's dead, she gave you up, she wanted you to grow up in a better environment, she loved you/us, whatever).

I wonder if those of us who've watched soap operas during our formative years might have had a leg up on guessing R+L=J at that moment. I remember watching my Granny's soaps with her when she babysat me before I entered the school system (my own parents were quite disparaging/disapproving of soap operas, so it was like eating forbidden fruit!), and there always seemed to be some baby daddy or baby switch storyline going on forever. XD Now whenever the issue of infidelity or marital disharmony in general comes up in a TV show, I'm wondering who the REAL father will turn out to be. I blame my Granny! XDD

:agree:

[kneo]

I'm pretty sure that this was discussed somewhere else before, but I couldn't find it, so here is my question:

Why the KG and Ned's party had a fight? Ned would never harm his sister and the KG where there to protect her.

Apparently they were on the same side so a fight was unnecessary and purposeless.

[Lady Octarina]

I don't think the KG had anyway to be sure Ned wouldn't harm his sister. They might have heard he was honorable, but he was still Robert's man. Actually, I don't think the problem was his harming Lyanna, exactly, but the baby that was on his way (or maybe had been born a few hours/days before?). An heir to the old dynasty - the new king's man had no reason to keep him alive, other than a subjective love for his sister that could exist or not. They were just doing their job.

[Serie]

I'm pretty sure that this was discussed somewhere else before, but I couldn't find it, so here is my question:

Why the KG and Ned's party had a fight? Ned would never harm his sister and the KG where there to protect her.

Apparently they were on the same side so a fight was unnecessary and purposeless.

hehehe, my favourite subject!!! soooooooo,

the KG was on the king's side while Ned was on the other field, of the rebels. Now people are arguing that since the KG purpose is to guard the king (and royal family members), they were guarding something else apart from Lyanna, the rightful king of Westeros, son of Rhaegar. The KG main concern was not to protect Lyanna from Ned, was to protect the king from anyone belonging to the rebels field.

[Lady Blackfyre]

Even if Ned was not intending to harm Lyanna and her baby, the KG might have imagined Ned would in very least rob the child of his heritage. Maybe Ned would do something like take the baby away and raise him as his own, lying about his parentage... oh, wait...

[Serie]

Maybe Ned would do something like take the baby away and raise him as his own, lying about his parentage... oh, wait...

Naaaah, he's too honourable :P ;)

[kneo]

Ned was looking for his sister and is quite obvious that he is there to save her(assuming that she was kidnapped or held by force) and not to harm her.

If they thought otherwise, then they were really stupid and this would be a poor explanation from Martin.

Even though there was a king there, Ned's actions proves us that the he would never harm his sister's child. They couldn't know that for sure I know, but let's face it, starting a fight under a weak assumption instead of trying to find a solution given the circumstances (4 against....basically everyone else from that moment) would just prove that they are all suicidal and stupid(when I say all I include Ned as well, he as well could have stopped the fight).

Their best chances for protecting the king was actually with the person who they were going to fight.

I'm quite sure that, Lyanna could have told them that Ned would never harm her or the child but I'm also sure that wouldn't have stopped the fight. There needed to be a fight, and the question is why?

PS I know it's reasonable to assume that they were protecting the king, but I don't think this is an explanation for the actual fight...It's too simple and well stupid...

Edit: I just want them to be rational.....

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ned was looking for his sister and is quite obvious that he is there to save her(assuming that she was kidnapped or held by force) and not to harm her.

If they thought otherwise, then they were really stupid and this would be a poor explanation from Martin.

Even though there was a king there, Ned's actions proves us that the he would never harm his sister's child. They couldn't know that for sure I know, but let's face it, starting a fight under a weak assumption instead of trying to find a solution given the circumstances (4 against....basically everyone else from that moment) would just prove that they are all suicidal and stupid(when I say all I include Ned as well, he as well could have stopped the fight).

Their best chances for protecting the king was actually with the person who they were going to fight.

I'm quite sure that, Lyanna could have told them that Ned would never harm her or the child but I'm also sure that wouldn't have stopped the fight. There needed to be a fight, and the question is why?

PS I know it's reasonable to assume that they were protecting the king, but I don't think this is an explanation for the actual fight...It's too simple and well stupid...

All these guys knew was that Ned Stark was the right-hand man of the guy who just allowed Rhaenys and Aegon Targaryen to be brutally murdered. WE might know that Ned wouldn't have hurt the baby or his sister, but THEY did not.

[kneo]

Probably you are right. However this doesn't change the fact that they were doomed from the beginning. They decide to die with honor nonetheless.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Oh balls, just stumbled across this theory while wikiing Rhaegar. Now it's going to bug me like mad every time I get to a Jon chapter (currently reading AFFC).

[kg1982]

All these guys knew was that Ned Stark was the right-hand man of the guy who just allowed Rhaenys and Aegon Targaryen to be brutally murdered. WE might know that Ned wouldn't have hurt the baby or his sister, but THEY did not.

There was a good chance that they did know. My feeling is that Ned knew that there was something sensitive at the tower; otherwise, why did he only take six guys to rescue his sister, not his whole army. I also think that the Kingsguard were clued in to Ned's arrival; it seems that they were prepared for battle. I think that Ashara likely sent a raven to the Tower of Joy after talking with Ned, and I think that Ned expected a battle, but promised Ashara that he would talk them down. I think that the fight at the Tower of Joy was more about Jon's future than his life. The Kingsguard were fighting for Jon's rights as the King of Westros; they wanted him proclaimed king. Ned was willing to protect Jon, but he wasn't going to declare him the rightful king.

[Summerqueen]

Ned was willing to protect Jon, but he wasn't going to declare him the rightful king.

This is also my view of it. :)

[Screaming Knight]

There was a good chance that they did know. My feeling is that Ned knew that there was something sensitive at the tower; otherwise, why did he only take six guys to rescue his sister, not his whole army. I also think that the Kingsguard were clued in to Ned's arrival; it seems that they were prepared for battle. I think that Ashara likely sent a raven to the Tower of Joy after talking with Ned, and I think that Ned expected a battle, but promised Ashara that he would talk them down. I think that the fight at the Tower of Joy was more about Jon's future than his life. The Kingsguard were fighting for Jon's rights as the King of Westros; they wanted him proclaimed king. Ned was willing to protect Jon, but he wasn't going to declare him the rightful king.

I don't think Ned knew about Jon until after the fight with the kingsguard. Because I believe his promise to lyanna was to raise Jon as his own. I believe he only knew that his sister was there and that the kingsguard were there for her. This would make sense as to Ned thinking he would find them at the other locations where the war was going on. He knew lyanna was there but based on his confusion about where the KG has been I don't think he knew they were protecting the heir.