The Others, are they really the evil they appear to be?

[SevasTra82]

Thing is, what has he written so far? Everything we know about the Long Night is based on legends, passed down over eight-fricking-thousand years. We've had exactly two encounters "of the third kind", neither of which gave any background info on the Others. We haven't heard as much as a comma about their intents, we know nothing about their society (though it seems like they have armourers, since they carry swords and armour), nothing about their background story apart from, again, legends and nursery rhymes.

Sorry to brind real-world politics into this, but what we know about the Others can be compared to what kids in rural Yemen know about America. All the direct contact they ever have with Americans comes in the form of death from above, so naturally they assume Americans are all evil. All they know is from the perspective of the receiving end of drone strikes, mixed with tales and anecdotes told by their village elders - who often know nothing more either, they just repeat what they've heard, from somebody who repeats from somebody who...

So far, Martin has only written about accounts of Others. Only the skewed perceptions of a limited number of a non-representative group of people who encountered them in a stressful situation. Or worse, second- or third-hand tales about somebody else who met Others (Old Nan's tales about the Long Night are four-hundreth-hand, at best). That's not the uniform depiction of evil you seem to believe in. Martin hasn't committed to anything. Just listen to how in-universe people talk about Daenerys, the Red Wedding or Joffrey's death to see his perspective on what stories tend to spread, compared to what really is the case.

This is exactly why I think we will learn that History is wrong, and that it was actually The Others who built the Wall to keep man out, not the other way around.

[LordStoneheart]

Thing is, what has he written so far?

He's written the Others killing two night's watchmen for seemingly no reason while laughing about it. We've seen them slaughter wildlings for no reason. We've seen them resurrect the dead to fight for them. We've seen them accept child sacrifices

and if you take the show scene as canon, which I do because many predicted it long ago, turn them into Others for no reason.

We've seen them attack the NW on the Fist of the First Men and it was gruesome. We've seen how just plain unnatural they are when Samwell killed one. They are killing humans indiscriminately and no 8000+ year old history justifies present day genocide.

GRRM has stated many times that he does not believe in the "pure evil" or the "pure good" character. He seems to hate that fantasy cliche and does everything he can to avoid it. This is why I don't expect The Others to be some pure evil force that will attack for no reason....it's too trope-ish for GRRM.

I don't see The Others as some evil force. They have a purpose, a motive, and a direction. Why did they suddenly start to appear north of the wall again after being absent for 8,000 years? They have only killed what, 4 people in the entire book series thus far? So its not like they are going around slaughtering innocents.

Nothing GRRM has said means he can't invoke tropes if he wants to. He's also said he does write in archetypes consciously, so there's that. When he talks about no pure evil/good character, I honestly think he is only talking about the humans involved in the war of the five kings, and even then he's wrong with characters like Gregor, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay, the Tickler, Raff, most of the Bloody Mummers, nearly all of the Ghiscari. He may not like pure good/evil, but he writes more of it than people think.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Do they have a society? Do they have factions? Who are they? Did they always live in the north, or were they created by magic? Why did they decide to attack in the past? Why are they restive now? Do they reason things out? Are they a part of the game, or is someone who is a part of the game using them?

They're not northern dragons, in that the dragons can be controlled by humans. Direwolves are northern dragons.

GRRM doesn't want to use the Tolkien template, but the stories involving the Others resemble that template: Humans are too busy killing one another and playing power games to figure out that the real danger is from the north (Osha: Robb is going the wrong way). Tyrion makes fun of grumkins, etc., a sure sign that there is something to worry about. The Others are an apocalyptic threat in need of a savior figure to battle them--The Last Hero, AA, The Prince.

I'm just not sure how Martin is hoping to escape the paradigm of the world threatening big bad. I hope he does.

There is no Dark Lord though. The enemy of man is the harshness of nature. Modern man has conquered nature but in the middle ages it was still in doubt. The Others represent the destructive force of the cold and winter, our fear of the dark and the unknown, our fight to survive in the wilderness. Man tamed fire to stave off the cold. It took man a bit longer to invent AC to stave off the heat. Humanity's greatest foe until very recently when we learned how to kill ourselves has always been nature.

And the Others are the constantly forgotten threat. The primary antagonist is Human Nature but the instrument of humanity's destruction is the Others. Ummester the whole point is that they are being ignored when they should be the sole focus. The theme of the books is that humans are fighting against themselves and wasting time on petty squabbles when they should be banding together to fight the Others, and Winter that is coming.

Winter Is Coming

“Arya, sit down. I need to try and explain some things to you.”

She perched anxiously on the edge of her bed. “You are too young to be burdened with all my cares,” he told her, “but you are also a Stark of Winterfell. You know our words.”

“Winter is coming, “ Arya whispered.

“The hard cruel times,” her father said. “We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you’ve never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya.”

“The direwolf,” she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.

“Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm.“Arya and Ned, AGoT

“Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear?

Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet

deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long

night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children

are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and

hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods”

Nan

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

He's written the Others killing two night's watchmen for seemingly no reason while laughing about it. We've seen them slaughter wildlings for no reason. We've seen them resurrect the dead to fight for them. We've seen them accept child sacrifices

and if you take the show scene as canon, which I do because many predicted it long ago, turn them into Others for no reason.

We've seen them attack the NW on the Fist of the First Men and it was gruesome. We've seen how just plain unnatural they are when Samwell killed one. They are killing humans indiscriminately and no 8000+ year old history justifies present day genocide.

Nothing GRRM has said means he can't invoke tropes if he wants to. He's also said he does write in archetypes consciously, so there's that. When he talks about no pure evil/good character, I honestly think he is only talking about the humans involved in the war of the five kings, and even then he's wrong with characters like Gregor, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay, the Tickler, Raff, most of the Bloody Mummers, nearly all of the Ghiscari. He may not like pure good/evil, but he writes more of it than people think.

I concur. Others are darkness and death. To put it simply, in the battle for the dawn the humans are on the side of dawn and the Others on the side of eternal darkness. Dawn is good, eternal darkness is very, very bad.