Winter's Lady Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 The Others will kill a dragon, and it will come back to "life" as an ice dragon. It is known. :smoking:I don't see them as this cardboard cut-out pure evil either. Everything is shades of grey in this series, so why not them? They might think of humans just like humans think of them - strange creatures from a land far away with unknown motives, and simply try to protect themselves. And I agree with Francis Buck that the Starks will play a pivotal role in this.What I can't puzzle out though are the wights. So far their only goal seems to be kill kll kill, although they are capable of some sort of thought, as seen with LC Mormont. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val the Wildling Princess Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Awesome thread! And count me in. I'm of the same opinion, I don't think the Others are just evil creatures hanging around north of the Wall and I also have the strong feeling that they are connected to the Starks in some way "Winter is coming" are their words and if you ask me they not only sound pretty badass but kinda menacing as well.In AGOT, Gregor Clegane and his band of psychopaths were dispatched by Tywin Lannister to ravage the Riverlands, in the hope of drawing out Ned Stark, so that Tywin could exchange him for Tyrion. Is anyone else wondering if the Other attacks we've seen so far are basically the same thing? In other words, Tywin Lannister sent Gregor Clegane to wreak havoc on a group of people, not because he wanted to annihilate those people, but because he had a specific goal in mind that Clegane's actions were meant to elicit. We've barely seen any Others north of the Wall. We don't know how many Others the Free Folk have actually seen, only that Mance was getting attacked yet still managed to bring together a massive host.Perhaps there's an "Other" hierarchy, probably located in the Lands of Always Winter, who are directing actions here, and the Others we've seen thus far aren't representative of that hierarchy, but are merely the Others' equivalents of Gregor Clegane and his men. Perhaps the Others' goal isn't genocide against humans (just as Tywin's goal wasn't to obliterate all the people of the Riverlands), but they're simply sending a few soldiers to ravage the Free Folk so as to draw the Starks of Winterfell north of the Wall (which Ned was thinking about doing, and probably would have done, if Robert hadn't come to Winterfell), just as Tywin sent Gregor to the Riverlands to draw out Ned.Agreed. There are thousands of wildlings north of the Wall (well ,there were before Jon was LC) but if the main goal of the WW is only to destroy every human being, how did the wildlings manage to survive for thousands of years? It's not like they live in castles or they have a giant wall around their villages. And something that bothers me since Jon sent Val to find Tormund. If we assume that the WW want to get past the Wall to go south and invade Westeros, I suppose they are keeping a close eye on the Watch. Seems logical to want to know the more you can about your "enemy" So Jon sent Val north of the Wall alone, with an almost blind horse, and I don't know if she was carrying any weapon but I suppose she had not an obsidian knife or such thing. Wouldn't it be helpful for the WW to get rid of a woman that was going to get even more help for the Watch? :dunno: She would have made an easy target if the WW only kill for the love of killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Their presence brings about an eternal winter, so they're definitely an evil threat to humans.I might be missing something but I don't think we know whether they are a cause or an effect of, or just associated with, winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val the Wildling Princess Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I might be missing something but I don't think we know whether they are a cause or an effect of, or just associated with, winter.Indeed. At this point we don't know if the Others bring the cold or it's the cold that brings the Others. It's a nice parallel with the first words of The Ice dragon: ...She was never quite sure wether it was the cold that brought the ice dragon or the ice dragon that brought the cold. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Notch Balanter Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I think there just freedom fighters there lands have been invaded on numerous occasions by the COTF & FM so they first unleashed their powers during the LN . They have had other incidents of rebellion since ie the NK but then seemed to settle down in relative peace in the land thats always winter that was until Mance Rayder started causing all the hassle up North destroying tombs and what not which is causing the others to rebel one more time which they is perfectly acceptable in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear Me Roar! Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Yes. They are.I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I think the Others are every bit as bad as they seem to be. Whether or not they're actually evil is debatable (evil implies intent, and they may be more akin to a mindless force of nature, or have motives that are incomprehensible to us) but they're definitely a threat to mankind's very existence that must be stopped if humanity is to survive.The only "twist" I think we'll see regarding the spiritual war of ice and fire is that R'hllor and his priests are also evil.I tend to agree. I'm pretty sure the Others are just a force of nature that threatens the existence of humanity, and I'm not sure GRRM intends there to be more to them than meets the eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrist Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If they're not evil, then why do they kill every man, women and child they meet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrist Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If they're not evil, then why do they kill every man, women and child they meet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noimporta Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I'd rather they weren't. I also hope they aren't "too alien", "a force of nature" or "diametrically opposed to human life", because that'd be a very cheap copout to have a "ultimate, irredeemable antagonist" without it being technically evil, I hold Martin in a bit of a higher regard than that.As for the apocalypse thing, I still don't buy it. Throughout the series, we've heard of two apocalyptic scenarios, the Long Night/Eternal Winter associated with the Others/ice and the Doom of Valyria, that happened to a fire aligned civilization, and of only one of them there's any concrete evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If they're not evil, then why do they kill every man, women and child they meet?If they are evil then why haven't they killed every man, woman and child north of the Wall?We need something more than just the idea of evil to imagine what the white walkers are about or even just to explain their behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Wake Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I tend to agree with Noimporta. After six books of crafting a very large collection of characters with a host of different shades of morality, I don't see GRRM just creating such a generic force of evil. Their motives certainly wont be quite as clear cut as we're led to believe.One thing I think it glaringly obvious though is that they will come into confrontation with the Dragons, whoever the latter's masters are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyacinthGirl Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Are the Others really as evil as they appear to be? Well, nothing is as it appears to be in this series, so it's highly likely there is some more complex explanation to the Others than them just being "the big bad."But at the same time, I have no idea how this would work. I mean, everyone thought the wildlings were bad up until Jon went to hang out with them, and we realised they were just people, with good and evil amongst them. I do not see that happening with the Others. I know that the WW could have annihilated the Wildlings, and I'm curious as to why they didn't, but for me this isn't evidence to prove that they aren't evil, after all we've seen them do... What, was that White Walker just trying to give Small Paul a hug? Also, I can see the possibility of Bran joining Team Other, but not Jon.The thing is, seeing as EVERYTHING in this story is a shade of grey, it might actually surprise us to find out that the others really are just nasty ice-zombies who want to kill everything. :dunno: (I wouldn't want that to happen though...)Yeah, I really don't know where GRRM is going with the Others, but knowing him, it will blow all of our minds.The Others will kill a dragon, and it will come back to "life" as an ice dragon. It is known. :smoking:^THAT would be the coolest thing ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinwesteros Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 But the WW were 'dormant' in some respect for hundred and hundreds of years - Jon is nearly the 1,000th LC at the Wall, so the wall is definitely not new. We also know that the Wall was erected to protect Westeros from what was North of the Wall, i.e., the Others. One thing that I am very curious about is what 'woke them up' after all this time - could have been Mance digging around in graves, as has been said, but somehow I think it's more than that. This whole series, IMO, has to do with a much, much more monumental force than just the workings of man. Another question in the back of my mind is, if The Others have been 'dormant' for so long, why was the Wall so vigilantly maintained all those years? Surely more than to just keep wildlings out. I do also think that The Horn and The Starks also play a vital role, as other posts have proposed.I have no answers - I KNOW NOTHING, case in point, but these are just my thoughts/musings. And feedback? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 But the WW were 'dormant' in some respect for hundred and hundreds of years - Jon is nearly the 1,000th LC at the Wall, so the wall is definitely not new. We also know that the Wall was erected to protect Westeros from what was North of the Wall, i.e., the Others. One thing that I am very curious about is what 'woke them up' after all this time - could have been Mance digging around in graves, as has been said, but somehow I think it's more than that. This whole series, IMO, has to do with a much, much more monumental force than just the workings of man. Another question in the back of my mind is, if The Others have been 'dormant' for so long, why was the Wall so vigilantly maintained all those years? Surely more than to just keep wildlings out. I do also think that The Horn and The Starks also play a vital role, as other posts have proposed.I have no answers - I KNOW NOTHING, case in point, but these are just my thoughts/musings. And feedback?I don't think we know any of the things you mention in your first three sentances, but we tend to assume them.Have the white walkers been dormant? Don't know - the fisherfolk report seeing them by the shore at eastwatch so they are further south than usual for sure (mentioned by LC Mormont in AGOT).The Wall is old - we are told that legendary figure Bran the Builder built it or started its construction. Do we know why it was built? Seems odd to put so much effort into stopping creatures that can't even kill off all the Wildings. Have the Watch always been associated with the Wall? They seem to have been at the Nightfort since the Night's King but since they swear to protect the realms of men then why aren't they protecting the wildings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Also interesting to note is how cautious the Others are, considering they're practically invincible against normal weapons. The only time in the series so far they've actually attacked en masse, they absolutely owned the Night's Watch at the FOTFM. Yet for some reason, most of the time all they do is pick off the stragglers. What's going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey Snow Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Also interesting to note is how cautious the Others are, considering they're practically invincible against normal weapons. The only time in the series so far they've actually attacked en masse, they absolutely owned the Night's Watch at the FOTFM. Yet for some reason, most of the time all they do is pick off the stragglers. What's going on?So far their intent seems to be more to "scare" than "massacre" the Wildlings. They seem happy to push them south of the wall. Same with the men of the Night's Watch after the battle of the Fists of the First Men. They are herding them south like sheep, just killing off the stragglers. I have no clue what their ultimate purpose or motive is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcat Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I don't see them as cut and dry evil either. No one else in this series is so black and white, so why should the Others be? That said, I have no idea what their ultimate goal may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey Snow Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 It is also quite possible that the Others built the wall not Humans. Humans just think they did because it was so long ago and the Others lay dormant for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 It is also quite possible that the Others built the wall not Humans. Humans just think they did because it was so long ago and the Others lay dormant for so long.This. I absolutely believe the Others (possibly with the help of the Children of the Forest and Brandon the Builder) bult the wall to keep humans out of the north, not the other way around. As the Children themselves said, the time of direwolves, giants, and mammoths was dwindling. The north is essentially a "reserve" for these creatures, and the Wall is the thing keeping men from further invading that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServantOnIce Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 there is a huge thread about this in A Dance With Dragons section called Heresy.IMO the Others are either evil beyond all redemption, or so different from humans and all other living things that they can never co-exist./end thread] There is a reason Bran the Builder built the wall 700 feet high and 300 miles wide . . . and why the Night's Watch brother was petrified all the way to the point of his execution. I do think Ned was wrong to execute him, as to me he was telling the truth . . time to investigate not to execute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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