The Others, are they really the evil they appear to be?

[western wolf]

Oh you sweet summer child. :P

Maybe, but I think I'm happier than you moody, depressed, winter lovers :lol:

[MaxFlynn]

I thought this for a long while and still do but the main piece of evidence against it for me doesn't come from the books. In the books the white walkers are beautiful creatures cold of ice and looks otherworldly while in the tv show they are much more reminisent of orcs/undead. What I was thinking is seeing as Daivd Benoff and D.B Weiss know the overarching story of all the books if the WW turn out to not be wholely evil why did they change their appearance to be much more monstorous if it would conflict with the end story as opposed to if they are wholly evil there wouldn't be any conflict really with changing there appearance. While I don't think this tears the theory down and I still think the theory is true and want it to be it does sow doubts in my mind. I would love to hear someones opinion on this?

[Faydra]

I doubt they're evil. Something makes me believe that they'll be described in the further novels as a beautiful culture with well-founded reasons to justify their actions. It'll be like Crassus and Spartacus. One thinks the other is the villain.

[Black Crow]

I thought this for a long while and still do but the main piece of evidence against it for me doesn't come from the books. In the books the white walkers are beautiful creatures cold of ice and looks otherworldly while in the tv show they are much more reminisent of orcs/undead. What I was thinking is seeing as Daivd Benoff and D.B Weiss know the overarching story of all the books if the WW turn out to not be wholely evil why did they change their appearance to be much more monstorous if it would conflict with the end story as opposed to if they are wholly evil there wouldn't be any conflict really with changing there appearance. While I don't think this tears the theory down and I still think the theory is true and want it to be it does sow doubts in my mind. I would love to hear someones opinion on this?

Their faces are not "monstrous" in appearance in the show - compare them to the faces in the weirwood trees and ask yourself why we got a longish shot of a face on a weirwood tree just before the guy with the weirwood face came to collect Gilly's baby.

[Dheep']

The the Others are misunderstood ? They have Culture / a Civilization? How could that possibly be,based on their actions? How do you figure they can be approached or Negotiated with? No more than you could with a Zombie or a T-Rex. Or the Misguided Reverend could with the Saucer in War of The Worlds.

Don't think it will happen ,and would be dissapointed if it Did. Think you are making his writing much Much Deeper than it actually is.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

All they seem to want is to kill all other life and turn it into zombies. It really depends on their motives for us to judge them properly.

We can be pretty sure they do have emotions though, judging by how disdainfully the other fought against Ser Royce.

[eliamo]

Hopefully in the next book some more information is revealed about the Others and what their actual goal is....maybe Sam could find something out in the Citadel while training as a Maester?

[Morienthar]

Maybe they weren't once so hateful and evil but they are now...

[The Dragon has three heads]

Maybe they weren't once so hateful and evil but they are now...

Exactly.

The first men have a lot to answer for, but even they eventually made peace with the children and the other old races, then the long night came.

Unless perhaps the others were part of trying to force the first men off westeros who became far too powerful for the other old races to contain... *shrug*

[Ser Creighton]

They're evil. Gregor is evil, sure he may have likes something but that does not make him evil. To the Others they may not seem evil, but did the Nazi's think they were evil? Martin plays a lot with perspective to create his grey areas. The Others perspective is probably we are evil and that killing is a great form of entertainment. Soccer is played with baby heads, sucking out someones soul is an art form etc...

[JonisHenryTudor]

I can't hop on board this crazy train. The Others seem to kill everything living that's in their way. They seem to be enemies of all things living, and they terrify Bran. If something is so alien that it wants to destroy all life, and more specifically, wants to destroy humanity, can't we agree that "evil" is just as apt as any other term? Haven't you all seen Event Horizon?! Who cares who started it? They may have valid reasons for thinking humans are evil. At that point, so what? It's genocide we're talking about. Humans will defend themselves against genocide, whether they "deserve" to live or not. But, regardless, I think genocidal practices are evil. And 8000 years is a long time to hold a grudge. The First Men were dragging their knuckles or something in those days. Humans may have evolved marginally. Plus, sins of the father shouldn't be carried over to the child, yadda yadda.

Translation: How can the Others be misunderstood enough that it actually makes difference whether we call them evil or not? They've got to be stopped either way. The difference is all semantics. After the carnage visited upon the Wildlings, it doesn't matter.

Fair enough, but on that note can we also argue that dragons and their riders are "evil"? What good are DT's dragons set up for? Thus far they have killed people instead of saving them.

I have also questioned the role of the others. Martin likes grey characters, so why have 1 group that is purely evil? We assume they are evil just as many people assume DT is innocent and sweet. This is the sort of road Martin leads us down only to destroy it at some point, It might be that they are evil, but we know very, very little about them. Maybe the others are playing the role of the "Indians" in early European imperialism? Misunderstood and characterized as brutish beasts from hell. Just an idea. I doubt we will see the others sitting in KL's enjoying lemon cakes with a bit of wine with Sansa, but it wouldn't be too surprising if Martin pulled the rug out from under us on this one.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Their faces are not "monstrous" in appearance in the show - compare them to the faces in the weirwood trees and ask yourself why we got a longish shot of a face on a weirwood tree just before the guy with the weirwood face came to collect Gilly's baby.

I did notice that. The others the Old Gods perhaps?

[Black Crow]

I did notice that. The others the Old Gods perhaps?

Not so sure about that, although Gilly does refer to them as the cold gods, but GRRM pointedly declined to discuss the connection between the Children and the Otherlanders, which the weirwood faces certainly hint at.

[Sigurður Ingi]

I agree with founder of this forum is about the others here is my theory on the others:

My theory is that the others are from the same race of children of forest but are descendants of the losing team from War with the Children of the Forest. against The First Men instead of making pact like the children of forest did they fled to Lands of Always Winter and as been living their hoping that one day they take their lands of the ancestors similar to history of Blackfyre but much longer.

Like with many histories of men or story about Daeron conquest of Dorne where the enemies are made into demons just to make winning side much greater and give them right to rule over land which they had taken from the children of forest and their brethren others.

[nat655]

meh, for me the Others are going to get obliterated by Dany's dragons anyway. Can't see much room for a sudden plot twist regarding the morality of them. Sorry if I'm being closed minded.

[King of Winters]

meh, for me the Others are going to get obliterated by Dany's dragons anyway. Can't see much room for a sudden plot twist regarding the morality of them. Sorry if I'm being closed minded.

For me that's the reason why dragons are not the ultimate weapon to destroy The Others. It's too obvious that's there the only thing that can kill The Others. Dragon fire might would them but I think there's something else that will kill them.

Not so sure about that, although Gilly does refer to them as the cold gods, but GRRM pointedly declined to discuss the connection between the Children and the Otherlanders, which the weirwood faces certainly hint at.

The Others could be able to see though the Weirwood faces as the Greenseers do, but without being connected to a tree.

[Morienthar]

For me that's the reason why dragons are not the ultimate weapon to destroy The Others. It's too obvious that's there the only thing that can kill The Others. Dragon fire might would them but I think there's something else that will kill them.

Yes and that will be the people with Obsidian Blades.

I think the Dragons will be killed by the Others when it comes to a showdown.

[King of Winters]

Yes and that will be the people with Obsidian Blades.

I think the Dragons will be killed by the Others when it comes to a showdown.

Yes, Obsidian and Dragonsteel (which is Dawn).

[Sarah Lanni-Stark]

This is a great topic! And there are plenty of good theories in here (I actually wonder if George R. R. Martin read these foruns when he's lacking inspiration, lol).

I am with those that simply don't buy the idea of the Others being pure evil creatures that want to wipe out every living being from the face of the earth for no reason. On the other hand that doesn't mean they don't want to kill every living creature on earth; and if they do, I think there's a good reason for them to do so. I will get to that point later.

The Others seem to be "ice made flesh" (opposed to Dragons who are "fire made flesh"), and there is certainly a magical element or force that gives life to these creatures. Simplifying: as opposed as Dragons and Others might seem to be they have the magical element in common.

I think the most important question in this story is "why now?" Dragons were gone for centuries, the Others for millennia and they re-emerge in the same period of time. Also, we have all these iconic characters who seem to have a very import role in the history of their world. I mean, there are so many important people/creatures living at the same time in this world that is hard to believe in coincidence. Melissandre believes in the profecy that says Azor Ahai resurrected from salt and smoke to fight the Others. And she will certainly believe that Dragons were reborn for the same purpose. There's too much magic going on in a world that seems quite skepctical about magic.

It seems so far that the "real" battle in the story is not the war for the Iron Throne, but the war between Ice and Fire. Maybe the Others want to kill every living being because this is the only way for them to coexist with other species. Maybe this is just a silly theory, but it's a fact that the people/animals they kill don't cease to be, they still exist after all the warmth of their bodies is gone (and we know they are not brainless zombies since that guy tried to kill Lord Commander Mormont in a Game of Thrones and especially after Coldhands appeared in a Storm of Swords). I still sense a lack of purpose for the Others in this theory but in a Feast for Crows we've learnt that not everybody is fond of magic in Westeros and maybe here there's an answer for the main question..

The war for the Iron Throne and the war between Ice and Fire are not the only battles in the world. In a FfC we've learnt that there is also a war between magic and science (perhaps science is not the best word but I couldn't think of any better), and this war has been going on for many ages. The Maesters and Septons seem to be allied in this war, and we have also seen how much religion is an important force in Westeros and how the Red God is a menace to the Faith of the Seven.

Politics brought these two orders together (Septons and Maesters) because they share the same enemy: magic. Magic is a threat to the world ruled by science that the Maesters worked so hard to build and to rule (and I say "to rule" because everyone in Westeros depend on Maesters, everyone); and magic also became a threat to the Faith when Red God priests started to bring people from the dead (and imagine how much of a threat the Red God will be when the whole people of Westeros know that the Others are back!?!?!).

Well, if magic has united Septons (Science) and Maesters (Religion) I think it could very well unite Others (Ice) and Dragons (Fire), because both of them depend on magic to exist. Maybe the Others want to kill all humans because that is the only way to keep magic alive (maybe for them men are evil creatures who want to wipe magic out of the world), but once they realize that not all of mankind is opposed to magic they might reconsider their plans. Necessity brings enemies together in politics (and a Song of Ice and Fire is essencialy a political story) and when Others and (some) people realize that they share a common enemy it won't be absurd if they work together to survive. Maybe it will come to a point when the people of Westeros will have to decide if they want to live in a world where magic exist (but with the onus of having to share the world with dangerous and unpredictable beasts like Dragons and White Walkers) or if it's better to get rid of these creatures and let mankind rule the world alone.

[Mithras]

Others are evil only if they lose :fencing: