More Racism - the subtler, gentler, kind

[TerraPrime]

Re: Arrogant Bastard

I don't know about this. I'm sure part of the reason why Lin was overlooked was because he was Chinese, but not all of it. A lot of players in any sport get overlooked when it seems like they should have been noticed much earlier. And Lin may not have had great workouts or whatever they test, and it's like he's super athletic. Plus, he played at Harvard in the Ivy League conference; I'm sure a lot of scouts didn't see him play at the time, and if they did, it's hard to determine how good he is playing against that competition. If Lin was as athletic and explosive like Lebron James, no scout would have overlooked him, Chinese or not.

Yes, many talented athletes are overlooked, I'm sure, all the time. Although, it seems, if FLoW and others' description of the NBA system is accurate, then it is an anomaly to have a talent overlooked to this extent. There can be several hypotheses - one is the Lin was a late bloomer and he didn't peak until very recently. I think that's something we can verify by going back and looking at the records. The other hypothesis is that he has the talent and performance all along, but that he never got a chance to showcase that.

If you read some of the quoted interviews, for example from Lin's high school coach, it seems that the narrative is that Lin was overlooked for college basketball, and that started him on the slow track. More importantly, they believe that Lin was overlooked because Lin was Asian.

Was race an issue in Lin being discovered so late in his career? We can well imagine that it is, but we don't have the proper evidence to be convinced of it, objectively.

What we do know, from other realms of studying hiring practices, is that people who do the hiring (in this case scouts who find talents) tend to rely on racial and gender stereotypes when they are not making a direct effort not to. When we are distracted, when we are stressed for deadlines, when we are pressured in other ways, we spend less time evaluating the individuals and we rely more on racial or gender stereotypes, i.e. "black people are not as good at math," "women are less aggressive," and, perhaps "Asians are not as athletic."

So, again, yes, people get overlooked all the time, but not every overlooked athlete was overlooked for the same reasons. Just like in the workplace, deserving people get overlooked for promotion all the time, and yet, we still think it's worthwhile to separate out reasons that are unique to some classes, e.g. unequal promotion rates for soldiers who're black. There is a racial dimension to Lin's story, because he grew up in America.

Re: BLU-RAY

Yeah, a huge part of the story is that it's happening in NYC.

There have been some interesting pieces on Grantland recently about Lin; I'll link to two of them here:

"A Question of Identity" by Jay Kang

http://www.grantland...ance-jeremy-lin

"Leave Jeremy Lin Alone" by Charles Pierce

http://www.grantland...om-internet-age

"Linsanity: There Goes the Neighborhood" by Rembert Browne

http://www.grantland...ters-jeremy-lin

Note: the first and third are about the racial aspect; the second is kind of a meta piece about the whole story.

ETA: And by two, clearly I mean three. Whoo.

ETA2: Warning if you click on the story of PFC Danny Chen in the first article: it'll make you want to puke.

The first piece and third piece are both great. I recommend people actually read it.

In the first piece, I really like the author's analysis of the appropriation of icons of other cultures by Asian-Americans. I personally find that topic very fascinating, but this might not be the thread to get into that.

The third linked article is also great because it was a nice comparison, using the rise of Serena and Venus Williams in tennis to compare to Lin's current success (I hope Lin will have the staying power that the Williams sisters do, but we don't know yet). I think it also speaks to the apparent hostility that Lin had received from some other NBA players.

Anyway, good links.

[Young Wolf]

Basketball related, I still don't understand why more teams are not forcing him left. Dude has trouble going to his left. Double team him, force him left = turnovers.

Thread related:

Re Minaku:

Uh...I disagree with the statement that you can get away with being racist to Asian-Americans. I don't understand the thinking that it would be more acceptable to stereotype or make racist comments/actions towards them than other minorities. I think it largely depends on the area (like maybe your state), in regards to that type of behaviour.

I just have a really hard time believing it would be cool in say, SoCal, to in public make fun of an Asian of whatever ethnicity. Though I suppose I could make the same sort of statement that you made but insert Mexicans if I was thinking back to Southern California...particulary Orange County.

*shrugs*

[Minaku]

You're right Dub, in a perfect world it would be unacceptable to use anyone's uncontrollable features, like origin of birth or phenotype, as a means of degrading them. However, given the amount of apologists I see defending sports commentators and journalists, I'm inclined to keep believing that it's totally okay to be racist towards Asians. Remember that UCLA ching-chong ling-long girl? What about that godawful Pete Hoekstra "Debbie Spenditnow" ad? If it were a bunch of black people slapping their knees and saying "Yes, massa" or white people in blackface, we'd all be horrified. The whiplash negative reaction in Hoekstra's state gives me hope, though. Hoekstra trails Stabenow by at least 21 points.

Check out this stupidity: http://blog.angryasi...easy-4-him.html

What about that Floyd Mayweather brouhaha? (Thanks Spike Lee, but this still doesn't make up for your traitorous allegiance-move to LA.)

How about these tweets?

Ghetto Life ‏ @GhettoLanguage

The most impressive thing about Jeremy Lin is that he's doing this with his eyes closed.

The Fake ESPN ‏ @TheFakeESPN

It is always satisfying to watch a great performance by Jeremy Lin, but you're hungry for more within an hour. <- nice try

Kyzer Sosa ‏ @KYZERSOSAofUSC

I wonder if Jeremy Lin smoked would his eyes get bigger or would they get so small he don't say he high he say he blind son

Janelle Marquette ‏ @Nelle2times

“@Keebo_Maddox “@_WhoaThere: Jeremy Lin is only 6'3..?”--- Only? He Asian tho lol”O_o <- *facepalm*

jim newsome ‏ @jimithenewsome

Jeremy Lin definitely got made fun of in high school. He's just another #chinkinthechain

It was way worse in the first few days of Linsanity. I read tweets about MSG giving everyone in the crowd free egg rolls, for example. Now, you can argue that sourcing from Twitter is awful and means nothing, but there have been plenty of people caught with their feet in their mouth through Twitter. I haven't even gone into Youtube, I'm sure that it's worse over there.

Some other links: http://blog.angryasi...hinky-eyes.html

http://blog.angryasi...mers-ching.html And that happened at UC Irvine.

So you tell me Dub, are all of these people individually responsible, or is this part of a greater idea that it's okay to be racist against Asians?

Edit: One last article, since it seems to take about 10 minutes to edit anything...

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke-jeremy-lin-20120221,0,3935667.column

[Arrogant Bastard]

Remember that UCLA ching-chong ling-long girl?

Well, she was widely criticized and mocked not only at UCLA--which sent out a letter to their whole student body criticizing her routine--but around the media; I even saw Bill Maher making fun of her on his HBO show. So I wouldn't say she's an example of it being okay to make fun of Asians without outrage from the public. And in that "Ching Chong" Chick Fil-a article you cited, the employee was immediately fired for it. These mostly sound like isolated incidents of a few racist morons who did suffer consequences for their stupidity.

Yeah, I wouldn't cite twitter or youtube or yahoo articles either. Most of the people posting racist crap on those sites are anonymous cretins and cowards. Check any youtube video or yahoo article and they're all over the place, and not just being racist against Asians but everybody, or spouting off about either liberals or conservatives in a stupid manner. I still think the media and public reaction to Lin has been mostly positive, but there's always going to be some racist morons either tweeting or commented stupidly.

[Young Wolf]

Twitter is the new youtube. Again, I don't think its anything that they are "getting away with" or that its more socially acceptable to make fun of people with an Asian heritage. I'm sure if you followed those same assclowns long enough, they'd say more stupid shit about whatever current newstory is out there.

They think they are being funny, when really they are just fucking idiots.

I think you are perfectly within reason to feel how you feel, but again I don't think there is this countrywide free pass out there that its ok to make fun of Asian people.

If anything I'd say the same people making racist comments about Lin probably make other comments just as racist about other races.

[Quijote Light]

Rosie O'Donnel and Miley Cyrus are two examples I can think of where the individuals were called out almost immediately. Like Dub, I'm not going to discount how you feel, but I do disagree that there's some sort of free pass when it comes to racism towards Asians. If anything, I'd say what you're describing is more indicative of people in this country always trying to turn discussions about racism into a black/white discussion. Discrimination against most other minorities is usually somewhat trivialized.

[TerraPrime]

I think a "free pass" is probably exaggeration (sorry Mina), but I think there's a point in there that perhaps people are not seeing?

It's an example I used and an example that one of those linked articles mentioned.

Take the instance of using Lin's face paired with the fortune cookie. If Lin had been African-American, would he had been paired with an ethnic food item? People point out that fortune cookies are not really racist, per se. I'd counter-argue that neither is fried chicken and water melon. The offensiveness is not that the food items themselves are offensive. Of course fried chicken is not racist. The racism is in the use of those food items as a key identifier for a group of people, and in that process, reduce the group into a caricature. It is dehumanizing. As Chris Rock said (paraphrasing): "I always thought I like fried chicken because they're tasty. I didn't realize that I like them because I'm black."

The point is that there is a stronger filter established for racism towards black people and towards Jewish people. Some of us don't see the same level of filter for Asian-Americans.

Yes, the writer who wrote "chink in the armor" headline was fired, and the various commentators were chastised/fired/disciplined. So there are obviously consequences for these actions. That's a good thing.

What the complaint is, though, is that why are there so many incidents to begin with? When Lebron James made his debut and became the sports hotshot, did we see the same percentage of racist remarks about his athletic abilities? If not, why not?

As dub and others mentioned, twitter and youtube are dens of idiocy. Were there fewer idiots around when Lebron James became famous? I doubt it.

My own hypothesis is that we have come to realize that certain types of portrayals, descriptions, and characterizations of black Americans (and black people in general) are not acceptable. You should not utter those in public unless you are prepared for the backlash. For Asian-Americans, the level of self-monitoring seems to be lower. This is, I think, what Minaku meant that there seems to be a "free pass" on racism against Asians.

Part of the struggle for Asian-Americans is that we're shackled by the model minority mentality. Some of the racial stereotypes for Asians are, ostensibly, positive. "Oh, Asians are smart at science" or "Yes, Asians are successful business people." It's harder to fight a stereotype when it's positive. What was I going to say to that when I am, indeed, smart at science? "No! You're completely wrong! I am terrible at science!" ? Consequently, we are not as comfortable challenging stereotypes, and we are not as organized and vocal about it.

Another angle is that race issue in the U.S. has always been dominated by the black-white issue. Justifiably so, of course. The unfortunate side-effect is that mainstream American doesn't hear as much about Asian-Americans, and by extension, what the community may or may not find offensive (yes, of course, there's no unified singular Asian-American community, but neither is there a unified singular African-American community, so let's not quibble on this point). So, in a sense, they have had less experience on what level of characterization is acceptable, and what level is not.

Look, I understand that Lin is a surprise for all, and people are by and large celebrating his success and lauding his achievement. I get that, and I am ecstatic that he's getting the recognition that he is getting. I'm not saying people shouldn't cheer him or that they shouldn't praise his successes, in fear that their enthusiasm for him might be misconstrued as something racist. I don't want that to happen.

At the same time, I think the types of comments Lin has been getting do reveal a level of casual racism against Asian-Americans that perhaps is not matched for most other minority groups. All ethnic minority groups experience racism. Some groups have more of that than others. This is not about winning some sort of Most Oppressed Minority contest. However, I am not finding explanations that other ethnic groups also experience racism to be of any comfort when dealing with the subtly, and not so subtly at times, racism displayed when people comment about Lin.

[Quijote Light]

Great post TP. I think my problem with the "free pass" thing is that I think it applies to several groups. Specifically Hispanics, those of Middle Eastern descent, and Asians. I'd guess the Hispanic side is easier for me to see, since I encounter it personally.

[Ken Stone]

Take the instance of using Lin's face paired with the fortune cookie. If Lin had been African-American, would he had been paired with an ethnic food item? People point out that fortune cookies are not really racist, per se. I'd counter-argue that neither is fried chicken and water melon. The offensiveness is not that the food items themselves are offensive. Of course fried chicken is not racist. The racism is in the use of those food items as a key identifier for a group of people, and in that process, reduce the group into a caricature. It is dehumanizing. As Chris Rock said (paraphrasing): "I always thought I like fried chicken because they're tasty. I didn't realize that I like them because I'm black."

To be fair, pairing Lin's face with a fortune cookie is like pairing Dirk Nowitzki face with sour kraut. Or Steve Nash with maple syrup. I'm not sure people would get all that upset in the later cases. Fried chicken and watermelon aren't African-American food, the way a fortune cookie is chinese food. They are just foods that white people decided black people love.

[Minaku]

To be fair, pairing Lin's face with a fortune cookie is like pairing Dirk Nowitzki face with sour kraut. Or Steve Nash with maple syrup. I'm not sure people would get all that upset in the later cases. Fried chicken and watermelon aren't African-American food, the way a fortune cookie is chinese food. They are just foods that white people decided black people love.

Then why should we allow those stereotypes to control us? We can cheer Lin on without loaded images. The difference, also, between Lin, Dirk, and Nash is that Lin is American. The other two may or may not be naturalized, but Lin is a born and bred American.

I agree with TP who as always puts issues much more eloquently than I ever can. I also agree that there is racism against non-black minorities which can and does go undetected; in this case, it's being brought out by the Jeremy Lin phenomenon.

[Ken Stone]

Then why should we allow those stereotypes to control us? We can cheer Lin on without loaded images. The difference, also, between Lin, Dirk, and Nash is that Lin is American. The other two may or may not be naturalized, but Lin is a born and bred American.

A fortune cookie has nothing to do with stereotypes, neither do sour kraut, or maple syrup. Also fortune cookies (as I understand it) aren't even a chinese food. They are an American food of Chinese descent, which makes it even more proper to pair with Lin.

I'm not saying that Lin didn't or isn't facing racism, because it is clear he is. I'm just saying that the fortune cookie is a poor example of it.

[Minaku]

I'm one who believes that any imagery associated with Asians or Asian-Americans should be avoided until there is a better understanding of non-black race relations. I would love to be at a point where a fortune cookie paired with Jeremy Lin's face is funny because they're both Asian-American. But we're not there yet. For the slippery slope's sake, I'd rather just avoid it. Same with jokes about driving, gongs, Oriental-type text and the Yellow Mamba (flattering, but yellow is also loaded).

[Kalbear]

I also suspect that it's more acceptable because there's less of a parent figure or figures willing to denounce it. There's no Asian-american version of Jesse Jackson, at least that I'm aware of.

The power dynamics are also much different; if Jeremy Lin was black instead of Chinese descent one of the biggest stories would be how he went to Harvard, even if that didn't make a bit of sense to report on. I agree that it's a lot more subtle racism being shown, and probably the most racism was not recently (when your run-of-the-mill assholes come out of the woodwork and get appropriately slammed) but in his scouting, recruiting and general view of him from the start.

I'm far more willing to believe that the talent was there all along but was not properly put to use because of this view, though to be a bit fair the coach of the Knicks runs a scheme that prefers a certain type of point guard (he was the coach at Phoenix with Steve Nash, who is a short white guy) and that scheme does a lot of good for their stats. That isn't to say Lin is a system player or anything like that - just that he's probably found a system that works better for him than it does other guys, and in other systems he might not have been given a chance to shine.

[Tempra]

A fortune cookie has nothing to do with stereotypes, neither do sour kraut, or maple syrup. Also fortune cookies (as I understand it) aren't even a chinese food. They are an American food of Chinese descent, which makes it even more proper to pair with Lin.

I'm not saying that Lin didn't or isn't facing racism, because it is clear he is. I'm just saying that the fortune cookie is a poor example of it.

I generally agree with you, but I disagree with the Dirk + sauerkraut comparison. The term "kraut" was a slur used against Germans, particularly popular around WWII.

edit: putting this into english...

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

As further evidence that you shouldn't be using Twitter to prove your point...

How about these tweets?

Ghetto Life ‏ @GhettoLanguage

The most impressive thing about Jeremy Lin is that he's doing this with his eyes closed.

First, his twitter name is Ghetto Life...

Second, other notable tweets:

"Black Pregnancy Test: Insert Fried Chicken Into Vagina, and wait ten seconds. If just the bone is left, your pregant"

"Ghetto people are always naming their kids after stuff they cant afford: Mercedes, Bentley, Pearl, Life Insurance."

"#ThingsGhettoPeopleDo Embrace the Watermelon!"

"For some black people, every day is ash wednesday"

"I think Fruit Loops are just gay Cheerios."

The Fake ESPN ‏ @TheFakeESPN

It is always satisfying to watch a great performance by Jeremy Lin, but you're hungry for more within an hour. <- nice try

Other notable tweets:

"Danica Patrick crashed during a Daytona qualifier today, successfully qualifying herself as a woman."

"Ryan Braun wins appeal on test technicality, so maintains his title as the Juicing Jew."

"All the black guys in the NBA put extra lotion on their skin in observance of Ash Wednesday."

Kyzer Sosa ‏ @KYZERSOSAofUSC

I wonder if Jeremy Lin smoked would his eyes get bigger or would they get so small he don't say he high he say he blind son

Other notable tweets:

"@HollowDaDonwhere at I dont know my way around BK, I'm over in Jew York"

"I swear I only see white dudes in big ass coats and basketball shorts in Ohio, thankfully I'm moving to NY permanently"

Pretty much everything this guy writes is stupid and offensive to someone.

Janelle Marquette ‏ @Nelle2times

“@Keebo_Maddox “@_WhoaThere: Jeremy Lin is only 6'3..?”--- Only? He Asian tho lol”O_o <- *facepalm*

I honestly couldn't find any overtly racist tweets to post. On the level of racial insensitivity though, her comments falls pretty far on the mild side.

jim newsome ‏ @jimithenewsome

Jeremy Lin definitely got made fun of in high school. He's just another #chinkinthechain

Other notable tweets by this charming fellow:

"@TomDanielsan god tom you are such a fucking fag. #nicetry"

"Tom pritchard is a retarded person and we can't have retarded people on our basketball team. #theringer"

"Cers is the Gayest made up nickname for a basketball team. Just as is nap town. #damnindianafolk"

"Natalie Portman plays a good retard in black swan"

Don't get me wrong. There's obviously a lot of racism directed at Asians on display in these fine examples of internet commentary... but there's just as much racism directed at blacks and slurs against gays and the disabled (along with some pot shots at Jewish people).

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

And who the hell doesn't like fried chicken or watermelon?

[Minaku]

Just goes to show you the kind of rampant ignorance that's still around. I got angry enough to reply to a chink in the armor tweet just now... gonna reap what I sow. *sigh*

[Minaku]

For the most part it's the youth, which makes me hope that they'll grow up and quit being such twats when they're older. Especially shameful are those who are minorities heaping slurs on other minorities. The civil rights leaders fought for the right to do THAT?

[Nukelavee]

Ok - here's something I am really curious about regarding this topic. Are you all assuming these comments are all made by white people? I mean, is it just insensitive white people, or is this kinda thing more or less common to all ethnic groups in the States? Are blacks doing the same kind of stupid jokes about him?

eta - Minaku seems to have just addressed that

[Verboten]

Racism against blacks is still far more problematic and systemic than racism against any other ethnic group because America (and Britain) essentially based its entire economy off of the most brutal form of slavery imaginable, a specific attempt at cultural genocide, then fought a war that is remembered as being about slavery, but was in fact about economics and squabbles over the constitution while the North used the image of the free man (blacks were still inferior though and unfit to live with whites, Lincoln said) as a rallying point and the south used the image of the black slave in its place as a shield. The physical features and skin colour was subject to international mockery and revulsion that is still reflected to this day, and the descendents of the men who ran the slave trade still live in luxury. Richard Dawkins' family estate was bought with money from Henry Dawkins' sugar cane plantation for example.

Slavery was something that had international consequences, and anti black racism was in some cases specifically encouraged by the state. Like in Russia, where the Tsardom often used images of blood fattened spiders, rats and ticks preying on Russian peasants as analogies for the Jews, caricatures of the lazy black savage fostered anger towards the target and kept it away from the state. The individuals who carried out lynches and pogroms (many of whom will still be alive today, with grandchildren) were almost never punished. Neither anti-semitism nor anti-black racism has gone away.

In short, yes there is racism against Asian Americans but it is not really comparable to racism against blacks, there's too much history and bloodshed there. It's sort of like comparing Islamophobia to anti-semitism, they're similar, but the history that led to these sentiments and the violence that came from them are not comparable.