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Euron paid the Faceless Men with his dragon egg


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But you ignored the rest of the passage:

I did not ignore the rest of the passage. You are interpreting quite differently than I am.

"All men must bow to him (Many-Faced) in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him...else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever."

The key word in that passage is "they". If they worship the Seven...etc.

These are not gods of death. The Lord of Light, R'hollor is not a god of death. So based on YOUR analysis they should not be recognized.

But R'hollor is not a god of death. So by your theory Jaquen should not acknowledge its existence! No. I was trying to make it clear what I was deferring to, because seemed to be ignoring everything I write so I kept writing the same thing over and over again. So I tried to make it obvious what part of what quotes I was referring to. I'm not resorting to insults. I really did just think you were stupid. You know in the world some people are stupid.

Even R'hllor has an aspect to him/her that honors death. Fire consumes. If something is given over to the fire god in death, of course Jaqen would acknowledge it. It was the death part that was important.

Repeating the same thing over and over again is getting you the same results: you're still wrong. And expecting a different outcome is the very definition of insanity. I cannot reason with insanity.

You are stuck within your own interpretation and you're too stuborn to accept the evidence that I have presented you. The very existance of the Faceless Men is bringing the gift of death to people and their god is a god of death. They recognize that other religions also have death gods (or death aspects) and so they think that their god (the many-faced god) is the other religions' death god.

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I would agree with you with respect to insanity. If we weren't making progress in understanding one another.

I did not ignore the rest of the passage. You are interpreting quite differently than I am. "All men must bow to him (Many-Faced) in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him...else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever." The key word in that passage is "they". If they worship the Seven...etc. Even R'hllor has an aspect to him/her that honors death.
That is precisely my point. Every god has an aspect which relates to death.
Fire consumes. If something is given over to the fire god in death, of course Jaqen would acknowledge it. It was the death part that was important. Repeating the same thing over and over again is getting you the same results
Well we are actually making progress here, though you still seem to be a little trouble ascertaining what it is that i'm saying.
: you're still wrong.
Well, that depends on whether your disagree with what I'm saying or you do not understand what I am saying. So far you're saying things like "even R'hllor has an aspect to him/her that honors death. " which means you haven't been following me. Because that's precisely what I've been trying to tell you.
And expecting a different outcome is the very definition of insanity. I cannot reason
but you can reason with me. As of yet, you don't seem to be using reason. that's why i keep reiterating my point. Because you are not deconstructing the logic of it. you are just saying you disagree, which is not a refutation.
with insanity. You are stuck within your own interpretation and you're too stuborn to accept the evidence that I have presented you. The very existance of the Faceless Men is bringing the gift of death to people and their god is a god of death. They recognize that other religions also have death gods
Well you never said anything about "death aspects" before. That was my whole point.
(or death aspects) and so they think that their god (the many-faced god) is the other religions' death god.
Yes!!!!....AND... not every religion has an independent god of death, but that does not mean those who worship the Many Faced God do not incorporate those who practice that religion.

So in the Faith of the Seven, since there is actually only one god. Those who worship the Many Faced God, would still include the Faith. They would merely direct their prayers to the Stranger aspect of the Faith. But not having statues to the Warrior or the Maiden does not mean the Faceless Men ignore their existence any more than they ignore the resistance of R'hollor. They are simply uninterested in the none death aspects.

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I would agree with you with respect to insanity. If we weren't making progress in understanding one another.

That is precisely my point. Every god has an aspect which relates to death. Well we are actually making progress here, though you still seem to be a little trouble ascertaining what it is that i'm saying. Well, that depends on whether your disagree with what I'm saying or you do not understand what I am saying. So far you're saying things like "even R'hllor has an aspect to him/her that honors death. " which means you haven't been following me. Because that's precisely what I've been trying to tell you. but you can reason with me. As of yet, you don't seem to be using reason. that's why i keep reiterating my point. Because you are not deconstructing the logic of it. you are just saying you disagree, which is not a refutation. Well you never said anything about "death aspects" before. That was my whole point. Yes!!!!....AND... not every religion has an independent god of death, but that does not mean those who worship the Many Faced God do not incorporate those who practice that religion.

So in the Faith of the Seven, since there is actually only one god. Those who worship the Many Faced God, would still include the Faith. They would merely direct their prayers to the Stranger aspect of the Faith. But not having statues to the Warrior or the Maiden does not mean the Faceless Men ignore their existence any more than they ignore the resistance of R'hollor. They are simply uninterested in the none death aspects.

You cannot have it both ways. You wrote previously in large, bold, colored letters that the god of Many Faces is not strictly a death god, but he is. The Faceless Men only worship death gods and death aspects of gods. They view the rest as false gods. The kindly old many says that there is only one god: he of many-faces. When he singles out "the Stranger", it means he is not including the other six.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just a thought, but what if Littlefinger is the one who is paying the FM to kill Dany, and his price to pay is Sansa's life (it's clear his love for Cat transferred to Sansa). Arya will be the one sent to kill Sansa as a final test (she already dislikes her sister, but could she actually go through with it?).

Makes sense for a number of reasons:

- He plans to rule the Iron Throne and his plan seems really convoluted and would rely on the Targaryans being out of the picture

- Would explain Syrio/Jaquen's interest in Arya if this plan has been ongoing

- Littlefinger seems to value power over anything else, look how quickly he gets Lysa out of the way, and certainly doesn't help Cat and may even have been privvy to Tywin's plan. Why else would he go to such lengths to bust Sansa out of Kings Landing, only to go out of his way to hide her identity to everyone else?

- The payment may not be required until after the deed is done, which is why he has been dragging Sansa around with him. It's also clear that it was worth the risk of losing support of the Vale lords to save Sansa from Lysa

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  • 4 months later...

My initial interpretation of Euron mentioning he chucked the egg in the water was that he actually and intentionally did it. My thought was that perhaps the location of the dragon egg directs what sort of sub-type of dragon will hatch. In the ocean - a sea dragon, in a fire - regular, etc. Not much backing this idea, and not so sure I'd like for it to be true. It would imply there is going to be some huge dragon battle, which would take away from the human story.

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The last we heard of Jaqen H'Ghar, he was infiltrating the Citadel. And Tyrion has said that the only surviving copy of the book "The Death of the Dragons" was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel. It is named "The Death of the Dragons", but it can be generally about dragons including information how to hatch them.

He was? I don't remember that at all. Unless he was the guy in the prologue for AFFC?

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  • 1 month later...

Hah :)

How would the FM use a dragon though?

Don't be mad, they stem from people who were burnt to death by dragons, and enslaved by their owners.. they'll destroy the dragon eggs, that's why they'll be trying to get their hands on 'The Death of Dragons' because they want to kill Dany's dragons, as they could bring back a time where they lived in fear them

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  • 5 months later...

I came up with my first real theory and did not find anyone discussing it. I can be a fool, but I think Euron paid the Faceless Men with the dragon egg he claims to have thrown away "in one of the dark moods".

We know that it is very costly to hire a Faceless Man, especially if the victim is an important person. In the previous books it was said that to send a FM after Daenerys, when she was still a girl and not even a khaleesi, would have been the same as to hire an army. It was also mentioned that one dragon egg is enough to hire a fleet of ships.

Balon was the lord of the Iron islands and at war for the position of the king. So a dragon egg could just about meet the price for his head.

The last we heard of Jaqen H'Ghar, he was infiltrating the Citadel. And Tyrion has said that the only surviving copy of the book "The Death of the Dragons" was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel. It is named "The Death of the Dragons", but it can be generally about dragons including information how to hatch them.

I admit not knowing how exactly would the FM plan to use a dragon that use being relevant to the plot.

EDIT: redriver wants it to be known that he thinks he came up with this theory (and I stole it).

Hmm, I never thought of this before. A good theory, thank you :)

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  • 8 months later...

But we know that the ironborn don't have a high regard for gold and money. They respect firepower. I don't think Euron's money is what they'd be interested in, even though he had it.

Actually, him showing up with bucketloads of wealth to Pyke actually seems to support the idea that he gave up the dragon egg. He hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon but showed up with, apparently, most his financial wealth intact. So what else would he have paid with?

The damn dragon egg.

Seriously -- and no offense whatsoever to the OP -- this is so obvious in hindsight that I'm surprised it's only now being discussed.

You don't think that something that is so rare it's nearly extinct, that can purchase ships and armies is something a person would "hold dear" or something they'd miss if they had to give it up?

I think the FM just make sure that a significant price has been paid for a death. And must be a sacrifice enough to make the Many-Faces God happy, but the exchange is never for themselves. Besides, value is relative. What value could have a daughter of someone to a FM? not more than a young girl from somebody else. But for the father is the greatest price a father can pay. So it doesn't matter if a dragon egg can buy ships and armies, the real value of a dragon egg is it can become a dragon. Therefore means little to Euron, so in consecuence it means nothing to the FM and to the god, so i´m not sure that is that obvious. And who knows, maybe the sacrifice is his own brother's death. It is the price of having the iron islands.
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< SNIP >

Makes sense for a number of reasons:

- He plans to rule the Iron Throne and his plan seems really convoluted and would rely on the Targaryans being out of the picture

- Would explain Syrio/Jaquen's interest in Arya if this plan has been ongoing

- Littlefinger seems to value power over anything else, look how quickly he gets Lysa out of the way, and certainly doesn't help Cat and may even have been privvy to Tywin's plan. Why else would he go to such lengths to bust Sansa out of Kings Landing, only to go out of his way to hide her identity to everyone else?

- The payment may not be required until after the deed is done, which is why he has been dragging Sansa around with him. It's also clear that it was worth the risk of losing support of the Vale lords to save Sansa from Lysa

This feeds into a variation of one of my pet theories, albeit a somewhat crackpot one. I don't necessarily believe in either.

Since my re-read last year, I've wondered if Arya might become a dragon rider. She has no Targ blood that we know of, but it seems that may not be an impediment after all. My original reasoning was the coincidence of her (and Tyrion) being in Essos at the same time that Dany is planning to head west. We do know that two of the dragons need riders, and no doubt Dany would want to choose them herself. Quaithe told her to beware of all sorts of people, but not Wolves. So if Arya and Dany meet up, Dany might not only trust her, but Arya's warging abilities might make her a natural choice.

However, this thread has given me a related idea. Maybe Arya will be a dragon rider, but chosen by the FM. Perhaps they did get Euron's egg, and decided that a dragon working for them would be a worthwhile weapon in their arsenal. After all, a dragon with the right rider could take out a city, castle, family, ship, etc. Maybe they even knew how to hatch the egg and have raised a dragon down in the cellars of the HoB&W or someplace out of sight. But if they don't know how to control a dragon, they can send Jaquen off to get Dragons for Dummies in the Citadel. Now Syrio and Jaquen both encountered Arya and found her very special. What if a) due to some prophecy the FM had, they were actually seeking her? Or b) maybe they were on the lookout for someone smart with the right combination of talents and character. And now they are training her. Perhaps the KM and the Waif are the key players in the FM and not just the training staff. Maybe they want to use Arya as the A-Bomb of assassins. I certainly have moral qualms about this sort of mayhem and hope that Arya would too.

Well, we shall see. I obviously prefer the first of the two dragon-riding scenarios for Arya. I don't want to see my second favourite character turned into the Enola Gay.

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??



ok, paraphrased: "threw it [egg] away in one of his darker moods."



This theory requires that we believe Euron is being metaphorical here, in the sense that his dark mood was assassinating his brother. In my reading, this isn't how Euron typically speaks. In book evidence of skepticism is raised by Rodrick the Reader, who points out that it's very *convenient* that Euron has no witnesses to his feats, since the crew is muted, and asks whether Euron even ever sailed to Valyria or the Smoking Sea.



Reading Euron this way, as being only elusively truthful, or something near that, doesn't seem to track with his typical pattern of straight boasting or else likely straight lying. Are we to believe that whatever he told Victarion about Vic's wife true as well? The guy is manipulative and sociopathic. Given the rest of the wealth Euron displayed at the Moot, it seems likely that he could've had lots of other valuable items to pay the FM with.



To me, it seems simpler that he would've just throw away the egg. Eggs are valuable, but not *that* valuable. Illyrio gave three away, rather thoughtlessly, to Dany as a wedding gift. It seems Euron could've thrown one into the ocean in a fit of rage and frustration (likely along with whatever wizard was trying to hatch it). -- This would require believing that Euron did throw it away, which, Euron being shady, I've just argued probably isn't wise.



But what about the "darker mood" ? Do we think Euron murdered his brother out of a foul mood, or rather that it was a planned, calculated act? I'd go with the latter.

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  • 5 months later...
  • 2 months later...

"I threw it into the sea during one of my dark moods." Euron gave a shrug. -AFfC

So he's feeling dark (shady comes to mind) and can't sit the Seastone Chair til Balons gone. The GoHH foretelling/prophecy clearly indicate the FM and Euron. Balon Greyjoy died when the bridge he was walking on was allegedly torn apart in a storm, thereby dashing him on the rocks to become washed up crab food. He was literally THROWN INTO THE SEA from the bridge, a perfect allusion, and a seemingly perfect payment for the FM in my opinion as well. Props to OP back in 2012 :)

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  • 6 months later...

Euron is well travelled & intelligent as well as being one of the top schemers in aSoIaF. He has his seastone chair, he has the dragon horn. Now he could be a skin changer, a greenseer, a warg, whatever.
None of this matters as greatly as it may seem and here is why.

Warning *Crackpot theory territory being entered*

There is ice & there is fire. What quenches fire*? (*don't bring up wildfire for now at least ok? please & thank you). What CAN melt and is a more moderate form of (given in 'standard conditions' H2O is liquid) ice? Water. We've heard of fire-breathing Dragons, we've got three with Dany. We have NO CLUE what the others are up to, could they have ice dragons? Ok let's accept it as possible. What if then Euron's egg, which he threw into the sea, is there to hatch a sea dragon, a 'water dragon' if you will. Sure it sounds a bit pathetic compared to ice or fire but if one looks at the tales of 'Nagga' the sea dragon (who was a nemesis of Iron Islanders) who is to say that a sea dragon wouldn't be a complete bad ass? It needs time to grow so for now the Ironborn must stick to their reaving & Game of Thrones (Vic getting Dany for Euron- Euron knows Vic will fail to get her for either of them but Vic will help her enough anyway) unimportant time fillers for Euron's true plan or destiny.

So fast forward to The Ice V Fire war. On side Ice we have the others, the wights & the ice dragons. On the side of fire we have our nights watch, Mel & the R'hllor crew, Dany & the dragons, Dorne, The North, The reach, The Vale, the Westerlands, the Riverlands, the stomlands, The power of the Iron Bank (need to get money back- need people alive to pay them), sellswords, maesters, alchemists.


Fucking everyone I'm trying to emphasis here.... Everyone with the exception of the Iron Islands that is. They sit on their Island getting cold but not dying, not being affected directly. they watch as the Ice & Fire kill each other. They may even send some people with the Fire side to pretty much get rid of them (Victarion for example)

Then during the war of Ice & Fire after both sides are taking on seriously heavy losses maybe a few dragons have been killed at this stage, the Sea dragon is ready for battle & Euron Rides his Sea dragon and just absolutely destroys all of the polarised factions of Ice & Fire with his Sea Dragon thereby ending the battle between Ice & Fire.

Euron & his crew have Westeros at their mercy, they take it like true Iron men and men of the drowned god.

They do not sow but they have to rebuild a continent.

Good luck to the smallfolk!

All along there was no 'prince that was promised' no 'Azor Ahai reborn', only Euron the bloody"Crow's eye".

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  • 1 month later...

Maybe I'm way off, but do we know the timeline of Euron's egg? How long ago did he have it?

Could his egg be one of Dany's Dragons now?

could he have traded to the FM who wanted it for Dany, i.e. Could Illyrio (who I think we assume is a blackfyre, but who definitely knows a thing or two about hiding his face) be of the FM or at least be working toward the same goal? A goal that ultimately involves Dany and her dragons?

After all it is well known the dragon must have three heads.

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  • 1 month later...

Well, I think the "price" was "throw the dragon egg overboard the ship to the Drowned God." Euron does what is called a 180° tell. He's telling a nugget of the truth, but the way he says it is a lie (the lie is: I could have cared less about it), and he omits to reveal the reason (wasn't because I thought it funny, but because I was told to).



Euron wants a dragon, so the dragon egg was worth something to him more than the money. It could possibly hatch a dragon... certainly if he hitches up with Dany. The FM don't like dragons and dragonlords. The best way to ensure that an egg cannot be used to hatch a dragon is to have it dropped to the bottom of the ocean... bye-bye egg, bye-bye dragon.



The FM would not take the egg for themselves: they won't sell it, because then someone else can try to hatch it someday; they won't experiment with it, because they don't want to hatch dragons themselves...why have a dragon egg in some vault where it can get lost or stolen? Safest bet is having it dumped into the ocean.



The whoel "price" thing that LF tells is a ruse, a red herring. The FM use this image that they require preposterous high prices for a hit. But in reality we've had Jaqen offering to kill 2+ King Joffrey for an axe thrown at the burning cage he was stuck in. LF only values money and power really. The image they have allows them to say "no" to an inquiry for a hit, without actually saying "no". All they need to do is require such a ridiculous sum that LF will say, "That's nuts! I can buy 2 sellsword armies for that amount of money." And it's LF who says "no" to the price, and thus the FM have avoided to do a hit on someone they do not think should be killed.



Euron is the boastful, extraverted narcissistic psychopath type. They love to let up "tells". But they'll twist it. In fact, I'm quite certain Euron possibly cried inwardly for having to toss such a valuable item, a possible future dragon, to the Drowned God he doesn't even follow that much anymore. But it was the price asked. And he did it. Balon got shoved of a bridge. So, when the IB aren't coming along to his plans, he's thinking: Did I ditch a possible dragon to the bottom of the ocean for this stupid lot? So, he expresses his sentiments, but in a way that covers up his true thoughts about it. Instead of expressing anger and regret, he twists it into a narcissistic boast. The act he talks about isn't a lie. It's the boast that is the lie.


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It's not too far-fetched to posit a theory that the Faceless Men might be trying to hatch a dragon egg. That would be a project of such importance that it would justify sending a man to infiltrate the Citadel to access some ancient intel.



Although, based on the book title, it may be that Jaqen is looking for proof that the Maesters were involved in the dragon's demise.


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It's not too far-fetched to posit a theory that the Faceless Men might be trying to hatch a dragon egg. That would be a project of such importance that it would justify sending a man to infiltrate the Citadel to access some ancient intel.

Although, based on the book title, it may be that Jaqen is looking for proof that the Maesters were involved in the dragon's demise.

The FM helped to rebel against the dragonmasters of Valyria. The first FM worked in the mines, gave the gift to slaves praying for death and to the masters slaves prayed for. There were wyrms in those mines. The dragonmasters used dragons to enslave people from all over the world. There's only one House of Black and White, in Braavos... the city of ex-Valyrian slaves that ran away, helped by the Moonsingers. The door of the House of Black and White has a moon on it. They are related, they helped each other, they support each other. Braavos is the one true free city, where reaving, slaving and any other type of bondage is forbidden. They even hid as a city for ages.

They don't want dragons in the world, because they're used to conquer and imprison people. Sure wars are terrible, horrible, but at least it's done with equal type of weaponry. Evens the odds. But for a people to have the bloodright to own a weapon of mass destruction like a dragon (because supposedly dragons only bond to those with dragonblood in them, and not even all of them). It's the only thing it's really good for really and what it's used for. The FM are too egalitarian minded to want such a thing.

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