One small fact: Joffrey was not evil

[Gurkhal]

There must be something good in your character, acts, asspirations, not something bad in your circumstances, for you to be considered not evil. And "evil" is used here only because Martin used it in his interview. If we warrant that circumstances are everything and free will means nothing, than nothing means anything.

That said, I actually think that he was not hopless. If he was sent to a camp at Harrenhaal as a nameless peasant boy and made to do hard physical work under the supervision of Weese , I think he might have changed enough. And if he had any friends like Gendry or Hot Pie. I regret that his parents wasted him so.

Well Joffrey had an aspiration to be a good king I would think but was surrounded by miserable role-models he ended up as twisted as them. To be honest I think that if Cersei hadn't shielded him in the specific manner she did and Robert took his role as father serious then Joffrey wouldn't have ended up as bad as he did. To that point maybe it would've been a good decision to replace the Hound as Joffrey's hangaround with perhaps Barristan or some reasonable decent knight in either the Lannister or Baratheon household.

There IS a theory out there that he raped Tommen, though.

http://asoiaf.wester...rey-and-tommen/

Oh, that shit comes up again. I really, really doubt that if Joffrey was not old enough to figure out any sexual devience toward Sansa I don't think he would come up with sexual abuse for Tommen either. Just some bullshit about a widely hated character that everyone swallows like, I don't know what really.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Oh, that shit comes up again. I really, really doubt that if Joffrey was not old enough to figure out any sexual devience toward Sansa I don't think he would come up with sexual abuse for Tommen either. Just some bullshit about a widely hated character that everyone swallows like, I don't know what really.

For the record, I don't think it's a theory with any real evidence to back it up. I was just saying it exists.

[Alexia]

Oh, that shit comes up again. I really, really doubt that if Joffrey was not old enough to figure out any sexual devience toward Sansa I don't think he would come up with sexual abuse for Tommen either. Just some bullshit about a widely hated character that everyone swallows like, I don't know what really.

:agree:

I really don't understand where that theory came from. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support it and a fair bit standing against it.

[teemo]

I've never heard that theory before! You'd think if he'd molested Tommen, he'd have thought of ideas to sexually humiliate Sansa on a regular basis.

[PrinceHenryris]

Joffrey didn't have a single redeeming quality. It's unfortunate that the Queen of Thorns didn't use the same poison on Joff that Oberyn used on Gregor.

[Brianne of Brooklyn]

there's no redeeming quality about joffrey. he was a sadistic brat, brought up by an unhinged mother and an absentee father. i'm sure pop psychology can be used to "justify" his behavior -- all he wanted was his (perceived) father's love, but robert ignored him -- but thus far (i've just started ADwD), joffrey is one of two characters in which i cheered (on a crowded subway car no less) when they bit the dust. (the other was tywin lannister).

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

He seemed like a decent enough older brother. i don't recall him abusing tommen or myrcella at all?

I believe that he did abuse Tommen. At Tywin's funeral when Jaime explained to him that he has to go inside of himself, he toldl Jaime, "like I used to when Joffrey would", and Cersei interrupted before he could finish.

[Nausicaä]

I've never heard that theory before! You'd think if he'd molested Tommen, he'd have thought of ideas to sexually humiliate Sansa on a regular basis.

He did. He threatened her with rape, ordered KG to undress her, forced kisses on her, touched her breasts and pinched her nipples and all of that in public. That said, I'm with Gurkhal and Alexia on "Joffrey molested Tommen" theory, I think he only started developing those... ideas during the series, as he grew older, but never realized them fully. One reason I'm glad Tyrion never took him to Chataya's.

[Fire_Kiss]

Joffrey was not evil.

I think he just didn't have any guidance. We get punished as children to learn how to be good adults. Joff never once was "punished" except the time Tyrion slapped him. He became King too early, was OBEYED by his henchmen, and though he desperately wanted his daddy to be proud of him, all Robert really did was drink and wench.

I feel he really loved Sansa, and tried to show her a princely time by taking her out for that ride in the river lands, but when Sansa witnessed him in his moment of powerlessness, she was doomed. Kid had a big ego, and couldn't get over the fact that Arya beat him with a STICK.

Really I'm not trying to defend him, more like I'm trying to analyze his mental state based on his actions. (I, too, cheered when he bit the dust, because he was an arrogant pill)

As an aside, my boyfriend believes that, had he lived longer, his mother would have tried to have a sexual relationship with him, (like Anthony the Great) does anyone else share his sentiments?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Making fun of Tommen jousting, cat and kittens and there must have been other things he did around Tommen, because when talking to Jaime Tommen said something like: "I used to go away in my head when Jofrey... he..." And here someone iterrupted them. So maybe Joffrey tortured some more kittens.

There seems to be a lot of bully older brothers in asoiaf land -- Aerion abused Egg, Euron abused Damphair, Daemon's twins abused Daemon Jr., Gregor abused Sandor, and so on. Just saying.

ETA: Not necessarily sexual abuse.

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

There IS a theory out there that he ...

http://asoiaf.wester...rey-and-tommen/

And this thread just lost all hope of being any fun.

[Alexia]

As an aside, my boyfriend believes that, had he lived longer, his mother would have tried to have a sexual relationship with him, (like Anthony the Great) does anyone else share his sentiments?

I consider that theory to be the equivalent of the Joffrey molested Tommen theory. There is absolutely no evidence to support it and it is made up to further villify an unpopular character.

[Turkey Jack]

He dosnt get it

Joff is an innocent child at heart, if those pesky peasants would just accept that he is king and can do what he wants to who he wants they would all get along fine (pain and suffering on the part of the peasants aside)

[Mr Stereo1]

Well... when Joffrey offered the bard a choice on whether he wanted his hands of tongue cut out, he went through with the choice... I mean, if he turned around and went 'nah, cut off the bodypart(s) he wants to keep instead/as well' it would have been worse.

And on the Joffrey-Rapist theory... I think it's much more likely that Tommen was just referring back to Joffrey bullying him in the past, and Cersei was in denial about it, just like everything else her sweet little joff did. It's not like he could defend himself from an older brother, who is next in line to be king of westros, and is (for some insane reason) their mother's favourite. 'Going away inside' seems like a good way to describe trying not to let insults hurt him.

[deleted01]

I think I was just a bit sick in my mouth after reading that Joffrey-raped-Tommen thread :ack: :ack:

Aaaanywho, the only redeeming quality I can think of is that he wanted to be involved in battle. Just because he was king, he didn't seem to think that meant he could hide and let people die for him. I know most of that would be bravado and excitement for a teenage lad, but hats off to him for that.

And the way Gleeson plays him makes me feel a little bit more sympathy for him than in the books. He really is excellent :lol:

ETA: I blame Cersei 110% for the way he turned out. Robert didn't help, but Cersei knew what he was like and did absolutely nothing to change him. At least Robert gave him a clip round the earhole for cutting that cat open (which I cannot forgive, else my kitties would eat me alive) - Cersei letting Joffrey get away with murder is what made him so awful. I seriously hope Tommen cuts her out of his life and rules as a good king with Ser Pounce.

[Dena]

He was a really sweet lad, and considerate, he beheaded Ned because it's how they execute people in the North (he respected the old way), and he didn't want to drown Dontos in wine, he just wanted to see how much an alcoholic can drink, it was just his scientific curiosity, like when he explored how works the pregnancy of cats. And he also wanted to help Dontos, he thought Dontos would stop drinking if he drank wayyyyyyyyyy too much (like those parents that make their child smoke five packages of cigarettes after they catch them smoking)

About him killing Tommen's pets he just wanted to be closer to him, but Tommen is a self-centered person who couldn't see how much it hurt Joff to see his little brother preferred animals over him.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Here comes the Lannister fanboy with more defense for a character that most fans don't like, but I don't think Joffrey was born evil.

I don't think anybody is born evil. But nobody is born without free will either, I don't think you can excuse actions through background. I've recently been studying the backgrounds of terrorists in the Northern Ireland conflict, some of thm had horrific backgrounds, some didn't. In the real psychos, there was usually a reason, but they were not the ones with the absolute worst backgrounds.

Tyrion's upbringing was far worse than Joff's, and if Ned had been as psycho as Joff we'd say "well, he was shipped away from his home at very young age, and his brother and father were cooked to death", which is a harder deal than Joff had.

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

I didn't explain well enough, I meant specifically during the Battle of the Blackwater, when he rallied the troops and raised the spirits of the citizenry with his visage.

I was going to mention this myself. Joffrey did stay outside in the midst of the battle so that his men could see him. He wasn't a coward at least. The only reason why he went in doors at the end was because Cercei forced him to.

And I suppose that in some twisted way he was trying to perform a mercy killing with Bran like he thought his father Robert wanted.

Other than that, I got nothing. He was a little shit.

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

Sorry, double post.

[The Duke]

If you think about it, he really was a boy of his word. He frequently threatened to do terrible things and then he did them. He never promised Ned would live, just that he would show mercy. Could have had him drawed in quartered.

Nature vs nurture doesn't really matter in the end, whatever the reasons, he was one evil little s.o.b.