What if Cersei had married Rhaegar

[Rheagar Prime]

If that happened he would treat her better than robert did but he wouldn't love or be fond of her like what he had with elia. I mean if oberyn saw through her more than likely rhaegar would or probably did too. So yes i still see him running off with lyanna and that would start cersei getting her tygaryen on with jamie. So it would still all be crap just because of cersei narcissistic personality and shallowness.

[bluetwilight]

I think it'd depend on Rhaegar's reasons for running off with Lyanna, if he was primarily motivated by 1) the desire for a third child, 2) he was in love with Lyanna/desired her specifically, and/or 3) he needed a "Stark"/"ice"/Northerner/something that could only be fulfilled by Lyanna.

If it was only reason #1, Cersei would've been able to give Rhaegar three children, and unlike Robert, they would have been Rhaegar's because I think Cersei would've loved to have been mother to genuine Targs. I don't think Rhaegar cheated under normal circumstances. Cersei, however, would've still cheated with Jaime. But let's say she got away wit it. Rhaegar had his three children, and there might not have been a war.

If it was reason #2 and/or #3, Rhaegar would've still abducted/ran off with Lyanna. Now the question is where would the Lannisters fall in the rebellion. Tywin would not like the insult done to his house, but his daughter would still be the princess and his grandson heir to the throne. I think he'd support the Targs and actively fight in the war. Presumably he'd still be Hand. Robert cheated on/abused Cersei, and Tywin didn't really care as long as she was queen and his grandson would be king, so I don't think he would've behaved like the Martells did. Would the Targs remain on the throne....probably. Even if Robert still killed Rhaegar (which might suit Aerys/Cersei/Tywin at this point anyway), they needed the Lannisters to get in KL and do the dirty work, and Tywin's not likely to switch sides.

[Alia of the knife]

I've always been intrigued that for the Kingdom to "work" you'd need everyone but a Stark.

- You need the Lannisters

- You need the Tyrells

- You need the Martels

But, you don't need a Family whose Ancestors were Kings of a territory that is the size of a Continent itself?

The size of ALL the Seven Kingdoms put together?

Without the North, you don't have the Seven Kingdoms

I also think Rhaegar would have walked into the fires, though to be fair, Lyanna probably wasn't easy to live with either, but at least he wouldn't find himself murdered.

Cersei is hard to please and likes immediate results- if you don't want her from the get-go, your public enemy number one.

She loved Robert apparently too, and had she been understanding rather than vain and given him time, he may have come to love her.

In the end, I think Rhaegar and Lyanna were fated for one another, so marrying Cersei wouldn't have mattered.

[ghost the direwolf]

Cercei would have stopped with her affairs with jaime.and the Targ will still be in power via the children they will have. I think Tywing would have still married her to Robert.

[Batman]

Rhaegar probably would have killed himself, he is pretty blue anyway and dealing with Cersei wouldnt help.

If the Rebellion still happened the Lannisters would have held loyal and the realm would have been so badly crippled that the Greyjoys would have been left the most powerful house.

[icantstandgreyjoys]

I think that she would be fancying herself as her mother rather than his father, about the whole "Tywin controlled the realm but Joanna controlled Tywin" stuff. And that would be an illusion too because she was/is too shallow/stupid/cruel for Rhaegar, as we can see her childhood was not a perfect one, and she was not a "perfect" little girl.

Who knows, maybe she would conspire with Aerys about burning the city during the battle, because Rhaegar would definitely ran off with Lyanna, even earlier, because you know.. Cersei.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Maybe Rhaegar would have ended up whispering "Lyanna" during their wedding night...

LOL!!!

I doubt it would have been all sunshine and lollipops of a marriage to be honest. I could see Rhaegar ignoring Cersei most of the time. Cersei would see Rhaegar's less sunny traits and perhaps would have grown resentful and disappointed of him. I just dont think it would be happy. At first, she would be very thrilled, ecstatic and eager to have his children but i think it wouldnt last. Would she still be buggering around with Jaime? Probably not at first. Later on? Yeah probably.

[Winter's Ghost]

I doubt any marriage with Cersei would be a happy one.

[Daemon Dagoghlor]

Cersei would have been really happy at first but she still would have grown bitter later on. She would have hated how Rhaegar was actually nice to people. We learn from Barristan that Rhaegar got along well with Elia because she had a sharp wit. Cersei doesn't have a wit of any kind. Rhaegar would have been distant from Cersei because of his melancholy attitude and she would have grown paranoid and thought he was cheating on her. Luckily, her infatuation would have made her willing to sleep with him and they probably would have had three children. The reason Rhaegar went looking for a paramour was because Elia couldn't have another child and he needed the three heads of the dragon. This is why, I believe, he had Ser Oswell Whent tell his brother to hold the Tournament at Harrenhal. No need for a third child means no tournament, no tournament means no running off with Lyanna, no running off with Lyanna means no War of the Usurper. If they'd been married, Tywin would have had no reason to be pissed at Aerys and it would mean that Aerys was no longer jealous of Tywin. Jaime wouldn't have been named to the Kingsguard so Cersei wouldn't have been able to sleep with him in King's Landing.

[Queen Cersei I]

Would Cersei have cheated with Jaime?

Would Cersei have still cheated with Jaime if she'd married Rheagar? I'd say, almost surely yes. Cersei clearly had a schoolgirl crush on Rheagar, but had also loved Jaime all her life. Of the two, I'd say her love for Jaime was far, far deeper.

I've heard many refer to Cersei's schoolgirl crush on Rhaegar as "betraying Jaime in her heart." I'm guessing this is how GRRM meant it to be accepted (along with Cersei being a hypocrite for resenting Robert's love for Lyanna while she herself liked Rhaegar, and Cersei being "an ambitious bitch" who wanted to be queen), however, I think that's fairly silly. Cersei loved Jaime, but clearly wanted to marry someone besides her own biological brother, and had goals and dreams outside of him. Rhaegar was her romantic fantasy prince. However, her lying to Jaime about the picture (which seems to be portrayed as evidence of Cersei's duplicity and faithlessness) struck me as more concern for Jaime's feelings.

In short, I think Cersei intended to keep Jaime as a lover all along, whether or not she married a man she was enamored of (Rhaegar.) This is why Tyrion (obviously speaking for GRRM) refers to her as "greedy"-- because she has the nerve to want to have both a husband and lover, both of whom love her. (Tyrion notes to Young Griff that Cersei is "Above all, greedy. Greedy for love...") This sort of infidelity-- and desire to have everything-- is generally the prerogative (and accepted privilege) of men in Cersei's society. If Robert Baratheon didn't fuck someone the day of his wedding, you can bet he did so within the week. But Cersei having bedded another man the same morning is clearly meant to be shocking and off-putting to the reader.

As for the original question, I think the point of AFFC was that Cersei is a self-deluded, hypocritical, hateful woman whose life would have turned out as miserably as it is now regardless of who her mate was. She is portrayed as sick, unnatural, and spiteful for jerking Robert off rather than letting him sleep with her. She is portrayed as faithless and deluded and her having slept with Jaime on her wedding day (and having evidently entered the marriage intending to continue her affair with him) is dropped like a game changing bombshell in the latest book.

Both Kevan and Cersei reflect that things would have been different if Cersei had been married to Rheagar. I am certain that this will prove definitively false. Both of them think that if Rhaegar had had Cersei, he would never have looked at Lyanna. He would have adored her as his beautiful wife, and would have never turned to another to bear him children. Cersei could have easily won his love, had his children, and the two could have been happy and had numerous trueborn sons together.

In later books, I think we'll find something else out-- specifically, that perhaps Rheager himself, seeing or hearing of Cersei's early childhood cruelty, refused the match, despite Cersei's beauty (indicating that he never would have truly loved Cersei, and for that she would have loathed him as much as she later loathed Robert.) Also, I suspect that his love for Lyanna, we will find, went deep; and was based on far more than just her "wild beauty" or his desire for a third child-- but even more on her incredible personality and spirit. Since this is the case, if married to Cersei, Rhaegar may well have still fallen in love with Lyanna-- to which Cersei probably would have responded to by bearing her brother's children, if she hadn't done that already due to Rheagar's failure to love her as she felt she deserved to be loved. (Because, as Tyrion GRRM's alter ego puts it, Cersei is "greedy for love.")

In short, I think that GRRM wants to portray Cersei as an endlessly corrupt, miserable woman whose own unnaturalness led to her own marital misery, rather than anything she faced in her marriage. (Danerys, after all, faced far more violent and brutal forcible sex from her mate, but rose above—by learning to enjoy it.)

That Cersei has obviously shown sociopathic behavior from a young age and that she has made her own choices rather than having been “ruined” by Robert or any other individual is obvious. However, I find it somewhat troubling that GRRM portrays Cersei as evil and unnatural for rejecting Robert. The fact is, he raped her. Plenty of women (not just evil women) would not have wanted to have had him touch them, much less to bear his children, after that.

When it is revealed that Cersei would have clearly cuckolded/ been miserable with any man—including Rhaegar—I can see yet more people claiming that her refusing to have Robert Baratheon’s children after he’d raped her was Pure Evil. And the rape does not create the least bit of ambiguity or mitigating circumstances, since Cersei would have apparently done it anyway, as a matter of pride. So the fact that Robert raped Cersei is utterly irrelevant; her refusing to bear his children was a case of pure, petty evil.

My issue is that GRRM is sending the message that it is evil and unnatural for a queen to refuse to bear her husband children; to do so and bear the children of another man is a crime deserving of death—and is like a the most brutal rape/ emasculation. Because Westeros society says so. If any woman breaks this rule, she is pure evil, and only evil comes of it. Even though Westeros society also says that highborn male bastard’s are worth less, that dwarves are curses of the gods, and the women can’t fight with weapons, GRRM takes an utterly modern attitude towards all of these things. Yet when it comes to this issue, suddenly the context of Westeros is oh so important.

[jarl the climber]

Would Cersei have still cheated with Jaime if she'd married Rheagar? I'd say, almost surely yes. Cersei clearly had a schoolgirl crush on Rheagar, but had also loved Jaime all her life. Of the two, I'd say her love for Jaime was far, far deeper.

I've heard many refer to Cersei's schoolgirl crush on Rhaegar as "betraying Jaime in her heart." I'm guessing this is how GRRM meant it to be accepted (along with Cersei being a hypocrite for resenting Robert's love for Lyanna while she herself liked Rhaegar, and Cersei being "an ambitious bitch" who wanted to be queen), however, I think that's fairly silly. Cersei loved Jaime, but clearly wanted to marry someone besides her own biological brother, and had goals and dreams outside of him. Rhaegar was her romantic fantasy prince. However, her lying to Jaime about the picture (which seems to be portrayed as evidence of Cersei's duplicity and faithlessness) struck me as more concern for Jaime's feelings.

In short, I think Cersei intended to keep Jaime as a lover all along, whether or not she married a man she was enamored of (Rhaegar.) This is why Tyrion (obviously speaking for GRRM) refers to her as "greedy"-- because she has the nerve to want to have both a husband and lover, both of whom love her. (Tyrion notes to Young Griff that Cersei is "Above all, greedy. Greedy for love...") This sort of infidelity-- and desire to have everything-- is generally the prerogative (and accepted privilege) of men in Cersei's society. If Robert Baratheon didn't fuck someone the day of his wedding, you can bet he did so within the week. But Cersei having bedded another man the same morning is clearly meant to be shocking and off-putting to the reader.

As for the original question, I think the point of AFFC was that Cersei is a self-deluded, hypocritical, hateful woman whose life would have turned out as miserably as it is now regardless of who her mate was. She is portrayed as sick, unnatural, and spiteful for jerking Robert off rather than letting him sleep with her. She is portrayed as faithless and deluded and her having slept with Jaime on her wedding day (and having evidently entered the marriage intending to continue her affair with him) is dropped like a game changing bombshell in the latest book.

Both Kevan and Cersei reflect that things would have been different if Cersei had been married to Rheagar. I am certain that this will prove definitively false. Both of them think that if Rhaegar had had Cersei, he would never have looked at Lyanna. He would have adored her as his beautiful wife, and would have never turned to another to bear him children. Cersei could have easily won his love, had his children, and the two could have been happy and had numerous trueborn sons together.

In later books, I think we'll find something else out-- specifically, that perhaps Rheager himself, seeing or hearing of Cersei's early childhood cruelty, refused the match, despite Cersei's beauty (indicating that he never would have truly loved Cersei, and for that she would have loathed him as much as she later loathed Robert.) Also, I suspect that his love for Lyanna, we will find, went deep; and was based on far more than just her "wild beauty" or his desire for a third child-- but even more on her incredible personality and spirit. Since this is the case, if married to Cersei, Rhaegar may well have still fallen in love with Lyanna-- to which Cersei probably would have responded to by bearing her brother's children, if she hadn't done that already due to Rheagar's failure to love her as she felt she deserved to be loved. (Because, as Tyrion GRRM's alter ego puts it, Cersei is "greedy for love.")

In short, I think that GRRM wants to portray Cersei as an endlessly corrupt, miserable woman whose own unnaturalness led to her own marital misery, rather than anything she faced in her marriage. (Danerys, after all, faced far more violent and brutal forcible sex from her mate, but rose above—by learning to enjoy it.)

That Cersei has obviously shown sociopathic behavior from a young age and that she has made her own choices rather than having been “ruined” by Robert or any other individual is obvious. However, I find it somewhat troubling that GRRM portrays Cersei as evil and unnatural for rejecting Robert. The fact is, he raped her. Plenty of women (not just evil women) would not have wanted to have had him touch them, much less to bear his children, after that.

When it is revealed that Cersei would have clearly cuckolded/ been miserable with any man—including Rhaegar—I can see yet more people claiming that her refusing to have Robert Baratheon’s children after he’d raped her was Pure Evil. And the rape does not create the least bit of ambiguity or mitigating circumstances, since Cersei would have apparently done it anyway, as a matter of pride. So the fact that Robert raped Cersei is utterly irrelevant; her refusing to bear his children was a case of pure, petty evil.

My issue is that GRRM is sending the message that it is evil and unnatural for a queen to refuse to bear her husband children; to do so and bear the children of another man is a crime deserving of death—and is like a the most brutal rape/ emasculation. Because Westeros society says so. If any woman breaks this rule, she is pure evil, and only evil comes of it. Even though Westeros society also says that highborn male bastard’s are worth less, that dwarves are curses of the gods, and the women can’t fight with weapons, GRRM takes an utterly modern attitude towards all of these things. Yet when it comes to this issue, suddenly the context of Westeros is oh so important.

Meh. Doesn't Tyrion also say something like if she had just one trueborn kid for Robert it would have removed the suspicion or something like that at one point. I really do not know. If Jaime is not named to the Kingsguard doesn't he marry Lysa Tully and stay at the Rock. Tywin seemed like he was trying to keep the 2 apart at one point when they were younger. I think she also said that Jaime seemed like a callow boy compared to Rhaegar. Still I also guess it easier for her to wax romantically for Rhaegar since she never had him. I think Kevan brings this up so he can mitigate the anger he has for Cersei over what she has done.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

That would be the beginning of mad prince Rhaegar..

[Winterfell is Burning]

have wanted to have had him touch them, much less to bear his children, after that.

When it is revealed that Cersei would have clearly cuckolded/ been miserable with any man—including Rhaegar—I can see yet more people claiming that her refusing to have Robert Baratheon’s children after he’d raped her was Pure Evil. And the rape does not create the least bit of ambiguity or mitigating circumstances, since Cersei would have apparently done it anyway, as a matter of pride. So the fact that Robert raped Cersei is utterly irrelevant; her refusing to bear his children was a case of pure, petty evil.

My issue is that GRRM is sending the message that it is evil and unnatural for a queen to refuse to bear her husband children; to do so and bear the children of another man is a crime deserving of death—and is like a the most brutal rape/ emasculation. Because Westeros society says so. If any woman breaks this rule, she is pure evil, and only evil comes of it. Even though Westeros society also says that highborn male bastard’s are worth less, that dwarves are curses of the gods, and the women can’t fight with weapons, GRRM takes an utterly modern attitude towards all of these things. Yet when it comes to this issue, suddenly the context of Westeros is oh so important.

We have been over this, but I'll repeat, to see if you get the mesage:

No one complains about Cersei refusing to have Robert's children. And no one even complains about Cersei wanting to have children with someone else.

The problem is when she refuses to have Robert's children, decides to have children with someone else, and then tries to pass the children as Robert's to inherit his money and power, stealing it from the person that was going to get it according to the laws of the realm, and her actions led to a war that causes tens (or hundreds) of thousands deaths. The only person that can claim to have caused as much damage is Littlefinger.

[Danelle]

After I saw the Jaime-Lysa what-if thread how could I resist? What if Aerys had agreed to Tywin's plan when Cersei was a kid? Or what if Elia had died later in childbirth with Rhaenys and Cersei was chosen as a second wife for Rhaegar? Would he have still have run away with Lyanna? Do you think there's a possibility that he might not have if he had his three heads of the dragon before he ever met Lyanna?

Well, for one thing Cersei would have to end her affair with Jaime. She said that her twin was a callow boy in comparison to Rhaegar. If they had got married most likely she would have everything she wanted. She would be a perfect wife for Rhaegar and do her best to please him. Not to mention that Cersei was exceptionally beautiful and to a certin extent a lot like Lyanna. Both girls were highborn but brave and adventurous. Lyanna was fighting Benjen with wooden swords and Cersei touched one of the lions at the Rock but Jaime was too scared to do it. Cersei constantly thinks that she would have been a better warrior than Jaime. On the other hand Elia is not pretty and is described as a nice person but perhaps too timid. Perhaps Cersei's temper would have kept Rhaegar distracted. In any case, Joanna Lannister was right. We all dream things we cannot have. Cersei will always yearn for her silver prince.

[Alia of the knife]

Cersei would have been really happy at first but she still would have grown bitter later on. She would have hated how Rhaegar was actually nice to people. We learn from Barristan that Rhaegar got along well with Elia because she had a sharp wit. Cersei doesn't have a wit of any kind. Rhaegar would have been distant from Cersei because of his melancholy attitude and she would have grown paranoid and thought he was cheating on her. Luckily, her infatuation would have made her willing to sleep with him and they probably would have had three children. The reason Rhaegar went looking for a paramour was because Elia couldn't have another child and he needed the three heads of the dragon. This is why, I believe, he had Ser Oswell Whent tell his brother to hold the Tournament at Harrenhal. No need for a third child means no tournament, no tournament means no running off with Lyanna, no running off with Lyanna means no War of the Usurper. If they'd been married, Tywin would have had no reason to be pissed at Aerys and it would mean that Aerys was no longer jealous of Tywin. Jaime wouldn't have been named to the Kingsguard so Cersei wouldn't have been able to sleep with him in King's Landing.

I think Elia was in the early stages of pregnancy at Harrenhal, (Rhaegar had seen a comet over KL the night Aegon was conceived, so they were at home), so Rhaegar had no reason at that point to look for a "third head," because it wasn't until after Aegon was born, and Elia injured in such a way that he knew he had to look elsewhere.

And of course, he had met Lyanna as the KoTLT at Harrenhal a year before.

Elia was bedridden for half a year after the birth of Rhaenys, so Rhaegar knew trying for another would be detrimental to her heatlh.

It wasn't until he had definitative word that there would be no more children with Elia that he went after Lyanna.

[Accio Euron]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9tlxw6g9k1rq0s06o1_250.gif

^ That could actually describe their marriage.

But in all honestly, I don't think it would have been a very happy one as many of the other posters before me has pointed out. From observations, we learned that Rheagar is a pretty decent person. He suffers from some depression, but I think he would have been a good fair king, which is what the realm needed after Aerys kicked the bucket. However, Cersei is a complete 180 from Rheagar. As a young child she showed some signs of cruelty. He may not have been in love with Elia, but he liked something about her and he seemed to have been drawn to Lyanna because she was beautiful, but a decent person. Beauty is great, but personality is better. I could only imagine that their marriage would not have been the greatest, and she might not like that Rheagar is not using his kingly power to his advantage.

It's difficult to make assumptions. As much as I do not like Cersei, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. I think Rheagar unlike Robert would try to make the marriage work. If they were not at each other's throats, there could be some compromise. Rheagar wouldn't try to humiliate Cersei the same way Robert did or force himself on her. If Cersei found some way to harbor some animosity towards Rheagar, it would be because she thought of him as too easy on the peasants, but not because he was cruel to her.

[James Arryn]

I don't think we can necessarily take Cersei with Robert and apply it to Cersie with Rhaegar.

For one thing, Robert and Cersei were pretty comparable intellectually; if anything she outclassed him.

Whereas with Rhaegar you get the sense he's operating on another level entirely.

So on the one hand that might keep her more interested longer. And on another she probably doesn't get away with anywhere hear as much...you don't get the sense that Rhaegar misses much. I think it's possible she's happier and the more destructive side of her doesn't emerge as much. And if not, I doubt she manipulates Rhaegar as much as she did Robert.

I think the greater danger is he loses or never actually finds interest in her; she might be too small-minded (not in terms of ability, in terms of priorities) for him. I think he values depth of character and mind, whereas Cersie has been raised to be an arisocratic version of a street fighter.

[Alia of the knife]

http://24.media.tumb...q0s06o1_250.gif

^ That could actually describe their marriage.

But in all honestly, I don't think it would have been a very happy one as many of the other posters before me has pointed out. From observations, we learned that Rheagar is a pretty decent person. He suffers from some depression, but I think he would have been a good fair king, which is what the realm needed after Aerys kicked the bucket. However, Cersei is a complete 180 from Rheagar. As a young child she showed some signs of cruelty. He may not have been in love with Elia, but he liked something about her and he seemed to have been drawn to Lyanna because she was beautiful, but a decent person. Beauty is great, but personality is better. I could only imagine that their marriage would not have been the greatest, and she might not like that Rheagar is not using his kingly power to his advantage.

It's difficult to make assumptions. As much as I do not like Cersei, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. I think Rheagar unlike Robert would try to make the marriage work. If they were not at each other's throats, there could be some compromise. Rheagar wouldn't try to humiliate Cersei the same way Robert did or force himself on her. If Cersei found some way to harbor some animosity towards Rheagar, it would be because she thought of him as too easy on the peasants, but not because he was cruel to her.

Love the link. :)

I have a theory that from the moment she was presented to him, and they looked into each others eyes, he saw corruption already, and was the one to put the breaks on the betrothal as much as Aerys.

Rhaegar just made it easier for Aerys to say no.

[Accio Euron]

Love the link. :)

I have a theory that from the moment she was presented to him, and they looked into each others eyes, he saw corruption already, and was the one to put the breaks on the betrothal as much as Aerys.

Rhaegar just made it easier for Aerys to say no.

Thank you. :) I couldn't resist.

Yeah, that sounds about right. First impressions usually stick for awhile.

[The Wolves]

Love the link. :)

I have a theory that from the moment she was presented to him, and they looked into each others eyes, he saw corruption already, and was the one to put the breaks on the betrothal as much as Aerys.

Rhaegar just made it easier for Aerys to say no.

Lol!!! I like this theory and I think I'm sticking with it. It says a lot that even tho Cersei and Kevin believe that if Rhaegaf had married Cersei everything would have been better. It says a lot that Rhaegar never took Cersei for a bride but kidnapped Lyanna and wanted her just like Robert. I think the outcome wof he the same Rhaegar would have still took Lyanna with or without Cersei as a wife