From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

[Caro99]

I will have to reread with an eye to the Varys/LF dynamic, but I had gotten the feeling that they were somewhat in cahoots, maybe trading intel for funding. :ninja: In any case, do you think Sana's experience with Dontos might have made her more sensitive to or able to detect plots?

totally, she would now know that even the people who seem the bit harmless and stupid (fools in motley) can be able to hatch up plans and have stron emotions (like dontos wishing to be a knight again and i'm sure he had a lot of resenment towards joff= seeking a little bit of revenge with the hairnet plot?) so she would have to learn that there is no one she can ever trust anymore at least at this point

bgona, i don't think you sort of asked why ser illyn wasn't send to kill sansa when the battle was thought to be lost- well, maybe in the chaos they couldn't find him and cersei had other things in her mind, so she probaby just assumed that sansa was still in the ballroom and when the moment came to die, she would have her brought to illyn..?

and a quick question, varys for sure, but do you girls think LF has any inkling of either dany or aegon?

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I am sure LF knows about Dany

[childofsummer]

Yeah, I was just wondering where the hell he was, indeed, or if any of his little birds reported anything that night. Plus as we know, Varys is a master of disguise, so it's possible he could have been hiding in plain sight.

Possibly as one of the women in the hall, the better to keep an eye on the queen he's trying to undermine?

[brashcandy]

Possibly as one of the women in the hall, the better to keep an eye on the queen he's trying to undermine?

Hmmmm, interesting :) Although Moon boy was there right, and he's one of Varys' spies...

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

So what is the next chapter:?

[brashcandy]

Rapsie is gonna post soon. It's the final Sansa chapter of ACOK.

[childofsummer]

Hmmmm, interesting :) Although Moon boy was there right, and he's one of Varys' spies...

The more I think about it, the hall would have been as safe a place in the city as Varys could have hoped for, and if things looked like they were going badly, he could have quickly ditched the woman disguise in the chaos. Also, Moon Boy was occupied some of the time and too conspicuous to, say, follow a target moving out of the hall. [/crackpot] :)

[Maroucia]

The more I think about it, the hall would have been as safe a place in the city as Varys could have hoped for, and if things looked like they were going badly, he could have quickly ditched the woman disguise in the chaos. Also, Moon Boy was occupied some of the time and too conspicuous to, say, follow a target moving out of the hall. [/crackpot] :)

The more I think about it, the hall would have been as safe a place in the city as Varys could have hoped for, and if things looked like they were going badly, he could have quickly ditched the woman disguise in the chaos. Also, Moon Boy was occupied some of the time and too conspicuous to, say, follow a target moving out of the hall. [/crackpot] :)

I have a really funny image of Varys as a woman in my head…. :rofl:

[1234567]

Sansa VIII

Summary

The great and the good are gathered in the Throne room

jostling like fishwives on a dock

. Everyone has tried to outdo each other in terms of dress. Queen Cersei is dressed in Gold cloth slashed with burgundy, and Varys is dressed in Lilac.

Squirming through a press of knights, squires and rich townsfolk, Sansa reached the front of the gallery just as a blast of trumpets announced the entry of Lord Tywin Lannister.

Tywin rides his warhorse down the great hall. Sansa notes that his armour is like nothing she has ever seen.

The Lord of Casterly Rock made such an impressive figure that it was a shock when his destrier dropped a load of dung right at the base of the Throne.

Joff has to step round it to embrace his grandfather. Sansa covers her mouth and smiles nervously.

Joff is acting the gallant King and asks his grandfather to assume governing the realm until he comes of age. Tywin sits beside Cersei. The heroes of the BWB are brought forth and Sansa notes

the noble knights and highborn ladies cheered as lustily as cutthroats at a cockfight

Mace Tyrell comes forward with his sons Loras and Garlan. The King fastens a golden chain around each of their throats, comprised of a chain of golden roses and a disk of gold with the Lannister Lion at the bottom. Joff asks if there is any boon they would ask of him and Sansa thinks

And now it comes.

Loras asks to serve in the KG. Joff agrees. Lord Tyrell asks to join the small council. Joff agrees. Garlan tells him that he has a maiden sister, Margaery, who had been married to Renly, but that Renly went to war before the marriage could be consummated and was therefore still innocent and had heard tales of his wisdom, chivalry and courage and has come to love him, and asks Joff to marry her.

Sansa notes Joff makes a show of looking surprised. He says Margery’s beauty is famed but he is promised to another and that a King must keep his word. Queen Cersei rises to say

“Your Grace, in the judgment of your small council, it would be neither proper nor wise for you to wed the daughter of a man beheaded for treason, a girl whose brother is in open rebellion against the throne even now. Sire, your councilors beg you, for the good of your realm, set Sansa Stark aside. The Lady Margaery will make you a far more suitable queen.”

Like a pack of trained dogs, the lords and ladies in the hall began to shout their pleasure. “Margaery,” they called, “Give us Margaery!” and “No traitor queens! Tyrell! Tyrell!”

Joff says he would like to heed the wishes of his people, but he made a holy vow. The HS then gets up to say due to the falseness of the Starks the vow is nil and void and there is no contract between him and Sansa Stark. Cheering goes through the hall and people start crying Margaery, all around Sansa. Sansa is more intent on what Joff is going to say.

Please, she prayed fervently, make him say it, make him say it.

She feels like she was back on the steps of Baelor’s Sept when Ser Ilyn took her father’s head off instead of promising him mercy. Joff says,

“The gods are good. I am free to heed my heart. I will wed your sweet sister, and gladly, ser.” He kissed Ser Garlan on a bearded cheek as the cheers rose all around them.

Sansa suddenly feels lightheaded.

I am free. She could feel eyes upon her. I must not smile, she reminded herself.

She notes that the Queen had told her that regardless of what she felt, she must act distraught as she would not have Joff humiliated. She recalls asking the Queen

“Yes. But if I’m not to be queen, what will become of me?” “That will need to be determined. For the moment, you shall remain here at court, as our ward.”

“I want to go home.” The queen was irritated by that. “You should have learned by now, none of us get the things we want.”

I have, though, thought Sansa, I am free of Joffrey. I will not have to kiss him, nor give him my maidenhood, nor bear him children. Let Margaery Tyrell have all that, poor girl.

Meanwhile Sansa tries to look forlorn and abandoned. Other heroes have been brought forth, Paxer Redwyne, Lord Mathis Rowan, Lord Randyll Tarly, Ser Kevan Lannister, Ser Addam Marbrand etc. Four men of lesser birth come next, including Lothur Brune, who for his service is made a knight and will be given lands and a keep in the Riverlands once the fighting is done. More titles and honours are handed out. The

alchemist Hallyne was raised to Lord, but with no lands. Sansa thinks

which made the alchemist no more a true lord than Varys was.

Lancel lannister is awarded Darry as the line has been wiped out apart from a bastard cousin. Sansa notes that Lancel is injured and the Imp is said to be dying.

Next Lord Petyr Baelish is called. He comes forward dressed in rose and plum, his cloak covered in Mockingbirds. He kneels smiling before the throne and Sansa thinks

He looks so pleased.

She thinks that she hasn’t heard of him doing anything heroic at the battle but he is being awarded all the same. Petyr is granted the Castle of Harrenhal with all its lands and income and the title of Lord Paramount of the Trident and that the lords of the Riverlands should acknowledge him as their liege lord and that these titles shall be hereditary. Littlefinger jokes

“I thank you humbly, Your Grace. I suppose this means I’ll need to see about getting some sons and grandsons.”

Joff laughs and the court laughs with him.

Sansa doesn’t understand why he is so happy as she thinks they are empty titles as the Lannisters don’t hold Harrenhal and the place was cursed besides and that the Lords of the Trident are sworn to House Tully and would never accept Littlefinger,

Unless they are made to. Unless my brother and my uncle and my grandfather are all cast down and killed . The thought made Sansa anxious, but she told herself she was being silly. Robb has beaten them every time. He’ll beat Lord Baelish too, if he must.

More than 600 new knights are made and the day drags on wearily as only 3 KG are on hand to knight them all. Everyone is getting restive and wants to leave, including Joff, but now the captives are brought in. Sansa notes that there are Lords and great knights in this company too: including Lord Celtigar, Ser Bonifer the Good, Lord Estermont, Red Ronnet of Griffin Roost, Ser Jon Fossoway, Aurane, the bastard of Driftmark etc. If they had changed allegiance during the battle they had to swear fealty, but those who hadn’t had t speak and what they said decided their fate. If the begged forgiveness they were fine and restored to their former seats. Some refuse to bend knee.

The bastard son of one of the Florents refuses to and Joff orders Ser ilyn to take him outside and behead him. As the man is dragged away, another knight comes to his defense.

“Stannis is the true king! A monster sits the Iron Throne, an abomination born of incest!” “Be silent,” Ser Kevan Lannister bellowed. The knight raised his voice instead. “Joffrey is the black worm eating the heart of the realm! Darkness was his father, and death his mother! Destroy him before he corrupts you all! Destroy them all, queen whore and king worm, vile dwarf and whispering spider, the false flowers. Save yourselves!” One of the gold cloaks knocked the man off his feet, but he continued to shout. “The scouring fire will come! King Stannis will return!”

Joff lurches to his feet, shouting I’m King and demands them man is killed instantly, striking his arm down in a furious gesture and cutting himself on the Iron Throne. He starts screeching for his Mother. The man on the floor shouts that the Iron Throne denies him. Tywin motions for Ser Meryn to kill him and he does.

Joff meanwhile has fallen into his Mother’s arms and is being attended by Maesters and bundled off. The hall erupts in chatter. Tywin takes control of events and says only those who wish to bend knee are to come forward and there will be no more follies.

As the afternoon drags on, Sansa wonders how badly Joff is hurt. She thinks

They say the Iron Throne can be perilous cruel to those who were not meant to sit it.

Eventually everyone is allowed to leave. When she gets back to her room, she hugs her pillow and lets out a squeal of joy. She thinks the gods are good and he has set me aside. She almost kisses the servant girl when she brings in her dinner. She thinks even the food tastes sweeter.

After dark she slips on her cloak and heads for the Godswood. Ser Osmund is on the drawbridge and Sansa tries to sound miserable, but he leers at her and she’s not sure she has been convincing.

She sees Dontos and asks him why he is so sad faced, because Joff has put her aside.

He took her hand. “Oh, Jonquil, my poor Jonquil, you do not understand. Done with you? They’ve scarcely begun.” Her heart sank. “What do you mean?” “The queen will never let you go, never. You are too valuable a hostage. And Joffrey . . . sweetling, he is still king. If he wants you in his bed, he will have you, only now it will be bastards he plants in your womb instead of trueborn sons.”

Sansa is horrified by this. Dontos gives her a slobbery kiss, and tells her to be brave and that the day of the escape has been chosen. After Joff’s wedding feast during the bedding, no one will notice them slipping away. Sansa is not happy about this as she says the wedding won’t be for a moon’s turn yet.

Dontos tells her to be patient for a while longer and says he has something for her and produces a hairnet of finespun silver with small gems in it that Sansa doesn’t recognize.

“What stones are these?”

“Black amethysts from Asshai. The rarest kind, a deep true purple by daylight.”

“It’s very lovely,” Sansa said, thinking. It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair.

Dontos tells her it’s lovelier than she knows: that it’s magic, and revenge for her father and it’s home.

[1234567]

Analysis

One of the criticisms of Sansa’s character is her chapters are dull and nothing happens, which personally I disagree with and although on the surface this chapter takes place during one day in the throne room, we see some very important players in the game and where some later to be important pieces started out. This is one of the best chapters to show the realpolitic of court and the falseness of KL and the court.

The first thing I noticed is that all the Lords and Ladies are standing on the floor great hall while those of lesser importance such as Knights, squires and rich townsfolk (moneyed small folk in truth) are in the gallery. Sansa is noticeably among the people on the gallery. Whether that is through choice or where she was told to go is interesting, because by rights she should be on the floor with the other nobles. Instead she is placed in the lesser nobles and raised commoners. A further indication of her status at court or foreshadowing of her remaining Alyane Stone permanently?

Also the court is described in the most unfavourable terms: the ladies and lords are scrapping like fishwives to get the best places.

Whereas in AGOT a throne room filled with people in their best dress would have consumed Sansa with excitement etc, now she notes what people are wearing, but her main concern is Joff breaking off their betrothal. She is still terrified it won’t happen. What we are seeing is Sansa in development, while the court has lost its shine, she doesn’t yet grasp that Joff has to marry Marg for political reasons.

It’s quite a sad image that the little girl of AGOT thrones who went to the tourney thinking how wonderful it was that everyone was being courteous to her and admired her, is now seeing many of those same people shouting “no traitor queen” and calling for Marg as they once may have called for her.

I wonder how convincing she acted her part of looking upset. People are watching her and I thought given all her humiliations it was ridiculous of Cersei to suggest that Joff should not have her looking happy at the situation. In fact given that Joff had her father’s head cut off, it was almost ridiculous for Cersei to ask her to play the part of distressed girl as so many people will have known it was bound to be an act.

Jumping forward a bit, to her view that Lothor Brune was a good match for Mya Stone because of her birth, it is note worthy that he is given a keep and lands. Something I missed before. It suggests that in her role as Alyane Stone she may also be suitable for a landed knight or not-knight with a keep and lands, (possible foreshadowing?).

Not about Sansa as such but one of her thoughts was interesting:

which made the alchemist no more a true lord than Varys was.

Given the speculation that Varys maybe a Blackfyre, the fact the word true is in italics maybe a hint that in fact he is a true lord. Similarly he is wearing lilac, and traditionally purple has been the colour of Kings and royalty.

The awards Petyr receives are another example of Sansa developing an inquiring sense of mind in regards to motive. She reasons them to be an empty title and a cursed castle not under his control. She wonders why

He looks so pleased.

. Although she is not thinking more about it, she unlike I think many at court is curious as to why he should be so pleased. Until she realizes,

Unless they are made to. Unless my brother and my uncle and my grandfather are all cast down and killed . The thought made Sansa anxious, but she told herself she was being silly. Robb has beaten them every time. He’ll beat Lord Baelish too, if he must.

She actually works out what is going to happen.

Moving on to the Godswood scene with Ser Dontos for the moment. I can see why LF is so pleased and I wonder when he decided to initiate the plan to kill Joff. The hairnet would have been costly and time consuming to make and the poison rare. He must have had it made in advance. Indeed is he so pleased because his plan is coming together so well. How much the Tyrells are in on the plot is unknown at this point, but it seems over the top for him to have made the hairnet if the possibility of Marg marrying Tommen had not already been discussed or eluded to between LF and TQoT.. The symbolism with LF’s cloak covered in mocking birds also highlights that he is laughing at those around him.

Also it seem that LF has twice tried to have Tyrion killed now. Once with the dagger implication and also with Ser Mandon Moore (possibly). Then he sets up Penny and Groat to rile Tyrion into making a scene. Both Sandor and LF seem to have a deep loathing of Tyrion and personal vendetta. The question is why?

The captives are also of interest, especially Ser Bonifer the Good. He has fought for Stannis and although bent knee, how loyal is he to the Lannister cause, and more importantly as of AFFC, he is castellen of Harrenhal, LF’s seat.

Lastly it is sad to see that Sansa has no idea of her own value. She asks if she can go home and Cersei basically says no you’re our ward = hostage. Even Dontos says it to her, yet she herself does not recognise what that means. Her main concern seems to be getting home. Sadly one of the things I think is foreshadowed in both books so far is that Sansa might never see Winterfell again.

Also in terms of time line, she says the wedding is not for a moon’s turn. Now evening thinking the moon has just turned and therefore it maybe at the end of another moon’s turn, then the story for the first half of ASOS only takes two months. In terms of Sansa’s development (which is often criticised) she should not be that different now from in two months time.

Although there may not be much emphasis placed on dress and knowing courtly things etc, Sansa is immediately curious as to what the stones are because she doesn’t recognise them. She may not hold a sword, but she is astute in other ways and has import knowledge for surviving at court.

Also Cersei wearing a gold drss when stating that Marg would make a better Queen, again highlights Sansa’s dream from AGOT and Cersei’s prophecy regarding golden shrouds.

[brashcandy]

I really loved this chapter :) It was great to see Sansa for once struggling to play a role to conceal her happiness and not her fear. I don't imagine the lords and ladies at court were foolish enough to think that she gave a rat's ass about the end of the engagement, but Cersei's insistence that Sansa act the part of a spurned maiden really reveals the absolute arrogance and pride of the Lannisters.

Good point Rapsie on how Sansa is now able to recognize the flashy and gaudy spectacle of court dress and is no longer dazzled by such displays. The shit released by Tywin's horse was a good metaphor for all that pomp, pageantry and charades: ultimately it was all horse dung - a bit like the role the Tyrells play here too - all pretty on the outside, flowery and sweet, but rotten and corrupt inside. Indeed, Sansa seems much more genuinely affected by the plain men who were knighted:

More than six hundred new knights were made that day. They had kept their vigil in the Great Sept of Baelor all through the night and crossed the city barefoot that morning to prove their humble hearts. Now they came forward dressed in shirts of undyed wool to receive their knighthood from the Kingsguard...Once knighted, each man rose, buckled on his swordbelt, and stood beneath the windows. Some had bloody feet from their walk through the city, but they stood tall and proud all the same, it seemed to Sansa.

Also, the exchange between Joff and Tywin was curious. Just before Joff declares that he will accept Marg gladly, he looks at Tywin with a "sullen glance" while his grandfather is staring at him in return. This seems to indicate one or two things: Joff wasn't so gung-ho to get rid of Sansa afterall, or he didn't want to have to take what he might have perceived as Renly's "sloppy seconds".

And yes that Lothor Brune bit was really interesting! I agree with you that it could indicate similar opportunity for a person to be granted lands and a castle if they distinguish themselves in battle, and also, if Lothor plays a role in helping Sansa escape LF, maybe his keep might become an important setting later on.

Lots more to discuss, but have to get some sleep!

[Fire Eater]

@Rapsie

Thanks for the rereads.

Plus to answer your question, I think LF's loathing of Tyrion may be because he didn't expect Tyrion to survive when he framed him. Plus, he knows that Tyrion knows about what he told Catelyn, and Tyrion saw through him. Tyrion had shown himself, after maybe Varys, to be the person who presented the most danger to LF, especially the anger LF shows when he learns of the ploy Tyrion played to find Cersei's agents.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

The awards Petyr receives are another example of Sansa developing an inquiring sense of mind in regards to motive. She reasons them to be an empty title and a cursed castle not under his control. She wonders why he looks so pleased.

Although she is not thinking more about it, she unlike I think many at court is curious as to why he should be so pleased.

Of course, we as the readers know exactly why LF is smiling like the cat that ate the canary. He has just returned from brokering the deal to marry Marg to Joff, so he has the Lannisters completely fooled into thinking him a loyal servant. In the process, he has made secret allies of the Tyrells, and the plot for Joff's murder has almost certainly been agreed upon already; so he has the double pleasure of having the two most currently powerful families in the kingdom tucked neatly into his pocket.

Essential to his own personal plans, he has been rewarded with a title, castle and stature that will finally enable him to marry Lysa Tully and seize control of the Vale. I have no doubt that this was part of his plan from the moment when he volunteered to act as emissary, knowing he would be able to name his reward when he succeeded, and that in doing so another big piece of his puzzle would fall into place.

Of course he has zero interest in Harrenhal itself (though the Lord Paramount title is quite a plum). What he wants, strategically and personally, is the Vale; and they have just handed it to him on a silver platter. He knows Lysa will fall over herself to marry him now that he has sufficient standing for such a match to be appropriate. He knows that Lysa is mad as a hatter, and that the opportunity to rid himself of her (after she names him Lord Protector of her son, of course) will present itself easily.

And perhaps most importantly, he has also secured the perfect place to hide Sansa once his plans to get her out of KL come to fruition. It is no wonder he looks so pleased with himself, he probably feels like he is standing astride pawns and players alike, to use/control as he will.

Until she realizes, unless they are made to. Unless my brother and my uncle and my grandfather are all cast down and killed . The thought made Sansa anxious, but she told herself she was being silly. Robb has beaten them every time. He’ll beat Lord Baelish too, if he must.

She actually works out what is going to happen.

Actually her conclusions are far from the reality of LF's intentions, or the reality of how things would play out. She is learning, most certainly; it speaks well of how much she has learned that she even put her mind to work to solve this puzzle and one can hardly blame her for not being sophisticated enough yet to comprehend the depth and layers of LF's capacity for plotting and planning ahead.

This part of this scene demonstrates to me that LF is not nearly as much of a "seize the opportunity" guy as he has seemed previously, and in fact has been carefully orchestrating himself into this position for quite some time. All that is left to do is convince the council that he can bring the Vale back into the fold by wooing (hah) and winning Lysa, and then immediately make himself scarce at court when the proverbial manure begins to hit the fan. He can be seen to have had absolutely nothing to do with any plot to assassinate Joff ("my lords, I was in the Vale on my honeymoon") or to have been in league with the Tyrells if their involvement becomes suspected "my dear queen, I acted only as emissary to arrange the marriage the council wished arranged and have had no further contact with them since"). Even if Dontos were captured and questioned, his tale woild sound like a drunken madman beside Petyr's calm and polished cover.

Dontos: sirs, Lord Baelish bid me meet in the Godswood with the Lady Sansa many times, and to give her a magic hairnet ...

Cersei: a what?

Dontos: a magic HAIRNET, I said.

Varys: how is it you managed to meet with her in the dead of night on so many occasions, when the gates and drawbridges are heavily guarded?

Dontos: well, there was the magic hairnet, you see ...He claimed it would secure her freedom and that we would all sail away on a ship to take the lady home ...

Pycelle: how would a ship get her to Winterfell? Was it supposed to be magical too?

Dontos: no .. he did not mean home home, he meant another home. And I was promised ten thousand gold pieces for my part in this glorious adventure, and I was Florian and she was Jonquil and she even kissed me and said I was!

Joff: get this drunken fool out of here and drown him in a vat of wine.

And of course, there would be not the slightest shred of evidence tying Dontos to LF as all communications went via Lothor Brune, whose name I doubt Dontos ever knew or could recall. LF will have an ironclad alibi in his presence at the Vale the whole time (as would undoubtedly be sworn to by his wife and various other key people). Cersei in any case is not about to be swayed from her conviction that Tyrion is the murderer. She might believe that Sansa, "stupid" as she is, turned to Dontos for help escaping the castle, but there the trail would end and it would most certainly not wind up at Petyr's door, that loyal servant of the crown known to hate Tullys and to have been instrumental in Ned's downfall. And finally, of course, Petyr took his own precautions against Dontos ever being questioned at all.

This is where LF is, IMO, at his most genius; he has played all the pieces and pawns perfectly and ended up exactly where he wanted and intended to be. This is why, when I have a hard time figuring out how he is going to get Sansa out of her mess, I am torn betweenn looking forward to what diiabolical scheme he pulls off next, and dread for the people he will step upon to make it happen.

[brashcandy]

This is where LF is, IMO, at his most genius; he has played all the pieces and pawns perfectly and ended up exactly where he wanted and intended to be. This is why, when I have a hard time figuring out how he is going to get Sansa out of her mess, I am torn betweenn looking forward to what diiabolical scheme he pulls off next, and dread for the people he will step upon to make it happen.

Indeed :) LF is the master strategist in this scene, playing both sides in a game within a game. The Lannisters believe that the Tyrells are genuinely interested in aligning with them, but have no idea of the secret pact to get rid of the King. Of course no one might believe or care about Marg's innocence (except maybe Joff), but LF has made sure to spread the truth of Joff's depravity at Highgarden. And the petulant, crybaby display that he puts on after being injured by the barbs of the Iron throne would not have gone a long way in convincing Marg's two distinguished brothers that he would be anyone suitable for their sister. Most disturbing of course is what we know LF has planned for Sansa, and the comment about sons and grandsons truly freaked me out. In true ASOIAF fashion, just when Sansa thinks she done being a prisoner and a pawn, an even bigger trap is being set for her.

[Fragile Bird]

Indeed :) LF is the master strategist in this scene, playing both sides in a game within a game. The Lannisters believe that the Tyrells are genuinely interested in aligning with them, but have no idea of the secret pact to get rid of the King. Of course no one might believe or care about Marg's innocence (except maybe Joff), but LF has made sure to spread the truth of Joff's depravity at Highgarden. And the petulant, crybaby display that he puts on after being injured by the barbs of the Iron throne would not have gone a long way in convincing Marg's two distinguished brothers that he would be anyone suitable for their sister. Most disturbing of course is what we know LF has planned for Sansa, and the comment about sons and grandsons truly freaked me out. In true ASOIAF fashion, just when Sansa thinks she done being a prisoner and a pawn, an even bigger trap is being set for her.

I don't think I even caught the "sons and grandsons" comment on the first read, it all rolled up with the handing out of knighthoods and honours.

What I find really amusing about the Tyrell alliance is that as we continue to read various characters, especially Jaime, and later Cersei (in a foolish decision), start getting alarmed about the number of Tyrells in positions of power. This echos the feelings of Robert, who had one point tells Ned that he's sick and tired of seeing blonde Lannister heads surrounding him everywhere. Foreshadowing, do you think?!?

Edit: I want to repeat what I said elsewhere last night. You know what month this is? March. You know what that means? Paperback edition of ADWD, with a new chapter from WOW at the end of the book. Maybe we'll get some answers....hahhahahahah....more questions in all likelihood!

[Gingerly Grumkin]

@Raps/Brash

Thanks, always a pleasure.

Got me thinking about LF, could he be the one to hire the KG to slay Tyrion? The more i think about it...

e.t.a. oh you said that already, sry

[1234567]

@Raps/Brash

Thanks, always a pleasure.

Got me thinking about LF, could he be the one to hire the KG to slay Tyrion? The more i think about it...

e.t.a. oh you said that already, sry

I certainly think it's possible. LF worked in Gulltown and got a lot of support from Jon Arryn via Lysa. Mandon Moore was from the Vale, and I think he may have been in LFs pocket.

[Elba the Intoner]

Most disturbing of course is what we know LF has planned for Sansa, and the comment about sons and grandsons truly freaked me out. In true ASOIAF fashion, just when Sansa thinks she done being a prisoner and a pawn, an even bigger trap is being set for her.

Yes! Reading this line now that we know what LF's plans are was really chilling. Eww!! He wants to make sons and grandsons with Sansa!

I have to say again that these rereads are so enlightening. Now that we have a basic idea of how the story is going, to read these chapters again more in depth and see all the hints and symbolism of what is going on, is just making me love these books all the more.

I also picked up on the symbolism here of Tywin's war horse dropping a load of dung right in front of the Iron throne, almost at Joffreys feet. Hah! He has to step around it to greet Tywin. And while I get that it's a symbol for the fact that all the pageantry and dress on display at court this day is total bull s---t, he even uses the word "homage" too describe what was being cleaned up after they led the horse away, I think it also represents the depravity of Tywin's character. This is just one of the many references to dung, poop, or shit, that turns up whenever we see Tywin around (there's also the phrase that he supposedly shits gold, of course there's his death scene on the privy, and the smell that pervades the sept where his body is kept before he is buried). I also love the subtle irony that he tries to put on this grand display of power and strength by making his grand entrance this way to be named hand of the king, and his horse drops dung right at the climactic moment, and that has the effect of making Sansa (and I am sure others there) want to laugh or snicker. We know how much Tywin hates people laughing at him.

Also, I wanted to address the comments that were made earlier about the idea that Tyrion might be the giant that Sansa will slay rather than LF. I just get the idea from thelittle hints like the ones in this chapter, that it will be LF who is the giant. We see here LF's plans coming together and he's so pleased with himself, and we know those plans include Sansa,who is clearly his one weakness, that it just would be such poetic justice for Sansa to be the one to bring him down.

[Elba the Intoner]

@Raps/Brash

Thanks, always a pleasure.

Got me thinking about LF, could he be the one to hire the KG to slay Tyrion? The more i think about it...

e.t.a. oh you said that already, sry

Yes I am now thinking this is the case too. Really LF is behind everything, isn't he?

I had another comment I wanted to make about Sansa's thoughts on the newly made knights who were mostly of lower birth and how Sansa seems to be impressed by them. She notes that some of them had bloody feet from their walk to the court and were dressed very plainly but had fought well and when given their knighthood seemed to stand taller as they joined the other knights along the wall. I think this is very sweet and telling that Sansa has not given up on her idea of true knighthood. Even though they may have fought on the Lannister side, the side of her enemy, they fought bravely for the house to whom they were pledged to support and were rewarded for that, and this is something they should be proud of, and Sansa thinks they do seem proud of it. Sansa is definitely changing and developing and not so taken in by the false pageantry anymore, but she hasn't given up on her view of what constitutes a true knight. And by the way it's reinforced again that a true knight does not have to be an actual highborn lord but can come from the lowliest of birth.

[brashcandy]

Great points, Elba. Definitely agree on the symbolism of the horse shit to Tywin specifically and the Lannisters in general.

The entire scene was one big sham, with everyone playing a part - from Joff pretending to be happy about Marg to LF looking pleased with being given Harrenhal. But the one thing that Sansa seemed to appreciate was when those ordinary men became knights, because it was the most real moment of everything that went on there. Even though the ones bestowing their knighthoods were from the corrupt KG, the men still experienced a sense of pride about their new positions, made even more meaningful by their show of humility in walking through the city barefoot.