From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

[1234567]

I have to agree with Brash, those are excellent points Elba. Indeed Tywin riding the horse into the Throne Room, also reminded me of Ned riding in to find Jaime sitting on the Throne. Neither was the true heir.

Also Robert stepping over dead children and Joff stepping over shit are both quite symbolic.

[childofsummer]

I love the way this chapter highlights Sansa's progress from bedazzled girl to analytical observer. She's not quite there yet, but she has made remarkable strides. So, that said, how much does Sansa now know or suspect about Joff's parentage? She comments that the Iron Throne is cruel to those not meant to sit on it, and even notes that Tywin sits on a step instead when the screeching Joffrey heads to the nursery with his mummy to have his scrape bandaged. (Implying that a Lannister isn't the rightful occupant, since Tywin is chief Lannister?) Has she put together the subtext from her meeting with Cersei (the ironic half smile when Cersei says Joff is Robert's trueborn son)? I doubt Cersei & co ever let a hint of Stannis's letter reach Sansa, and she says her maids won't ever talk to her, so I don't know how much gossip she'd hear. What do you think?

[Summerqueen]

I love the way this chapter highlights Sansa's progress from bedazzled girl to analytical observer. She's not quite there yet, but she has made remarkable strides. So, that said, how much does Sansa now know or suspect about Joff's parentage? She comments that the Iron Throne is cruel to those not meant to sit on it, and even notes that Tywin sits on a step instead when the screeching Joffrey heads to the nursery with his mummy to have his scrape bandaged. (Implying that a Lannister isn't the rightful occupant, since Tywin is chief Lannister?) Has she put together the subtext from her meeting with Cersei (the ironic half smile when Cersei says Joff is Robert's trueborn son)? I doubt Cersei & co ever let a hint of Stannis's letter reach Sansa, and she says her maids won't ever talk to her, so I don't know how much gossip she'd hear. What do you think?

Well, she did witness the exchange

“Stannis is the true king! A monster sits the Iron Throne, an abomination born of incest!” “Be silent,” Ser Kevan Lannister bellowed. The knight raised his voice instead. “Joffrey is the black worm eating the heart of the realm! Darkness was his father, and death his mother! Destroy him before he corrupts you all! Destroy them all, queen whore and king worm, vile dwarf and whispering spider, the false flowers. Save yourselves!” One of the gold cloaks knocked the man off his feet, but he continued to shout. “The scouring fire will come! King Stannis will return!”

So, I think she must at least know that there are suspicions about him being 100% Lannister.

[Grail King]

SQ beat me, she definitely knows of the rumors and hearing other people state it, should cause her to maybe remember the words she said to her father about Joff not being like Robert.

[childofsummer]

Well, she did witness the exchange

So, I think she must at least know that there are suspicions about him being 100% Lannister.

:facepalm: I had focused on LF and forgotten about that! Thanks, Summerqueen and Grail King. :) I wonder if she believes it, and if so, how that affects Sansa's perception of not only Joff, but also Tommen and Myrcella.

[David Selig]

One thing I noticed on my last reread that it was never shown "onscreen" how Sansa reacted to the news of Bran and Rickon's "death", who told her this and when. We only have a mention in her second chapter of ASOS that she has received that piece of news some time ago. I think this is a shame, it could've been an interesting and powerful scene. I wonder why Cersei missed the chance to be mean in the previous two chapters by telling Sansa that. She was woo distracted probably.

[brashcandy]

That's a good point David. In general, I wish we had more examples of Sansa's contemplating on certain matters.

[Caro99]

Fragile Bird, is the paperback edition really coming out on march!! I was under the impression it wouldn’t come out till july, a year after the hard-cover was released. Is the march thing confirmed?!

It was nice to read sansa trying to hide her smiles and sniggers at the start of this chapter. She is young and yet she was at this point already becoming a good actress if she could manage to keep a straight face. Probably if LF saw her in the throne room he also thought that she was a good actress.

The tyrells seem to be the new lannisters. They are so hungry for power and probably have gumption or stupidity. Not sure which, to willingly want to get in bed with lions. Funny how people shouted they didn’t want a traitor queen with sansa when in less than a year if my calculations are correct, we will have margaery accused of tons of things.

I am sure that joff was resentful towards tywin and all the others for not allowing him to marry sansa. He had gone to “so much trouble” to have the girl know her proper place with him, and he probably sickly obviously desired her and also would hate to have to do his work all over again with a new girl, who of course was married to his traitor uncle.

I always laugh when I read this chapter when I see how everyone seemed to be acting a play and I imagine joff with his rehearsed replies and well, don’t know, just think it’s funny.

By the way, we also have sansa hearing the mob the day of the riot calling joff a bastard born of incest and cersei a brotherfucker, so I’m sure that by now she is willing to believe Jaime is joff’s father. After the way cersei talked about him during the battle… so that’s why she notices that those who are not meant to sit the iron throne can get hurt by it. It was another confirmation. The ned-jaime and tywin-joff thing was a great point as well. And when joff stepped around the dung for some reason I linked it with sansa kneeling on barristan’s cloak.

No one has mentioned sandor s far in this analysis, but I remember that in this chapter we only have sansa mentioning how the hound has not been founf. I’m sure she must be hppy he managed to escape.

I agree that LF was just beaming here since everything he has planned is falling into place. Such a clever man, and the more reason for sansa to be careful around him. Hopefully he won’t take her to harrenhal since it is such a depressing place.

Reading how LF may have had tyrion killed twice (dagger issue and the ser moore affair which I had never thought about) made me come up with the theory that when tyrion returns to westeros he will want to revenge himself on LF and then he will not only free sansa of LF’s grasp but also annul his marriage to sansa..?

The dontos part showed me that he obviously knew what the stones are, but when he says that they mean home, why don’t we get as others have mentioned a remark from her regarding bran and rickon’s death and winterfell being put to the torch? What’s home for her now? Riverrun with her mother?

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I wonder why Cersei missed the chance to be mean in the previous two chapters by telling Sansa that. She was woo distracted probably.

I dont think Cersei is that malicious, she is certainly Sansa's enemy and Joff's ally, but rubbing in you baby brothers death is a little much, even for our sweet Cersei

e.t.a. I was really not looking forward to Sansa's pov when she leans about the RW, it would be sad as hell. I'm glad that Tyrion told her "offscreen"

[brashcandy]

No one has mentioned sandor s far in this analysis, but I remember that in this chapter we only have sansa mentioning how the hound has not been founf. I’m sure she must be hppy he managed to escape.

Ok, Caro, since you forced me :P I found it hilarious that Sandor would have been expected to stand with the other KG and participate in the knighting of those men. Definitely don't think that would have been going down, but come to think of it, since he didn't take any knightly vows himself, he probably wouldn't have been eligible to knight anyone.

[1234567]

One thing I noticed on my last reread that it was never shown "onscreen" how Sansa reacted to the news of Bran and Rickon's "death", who told her this and when. We only have a mention in her second chapter of ASOS that she has received that piece of news some time ago. I think this is a shame, it could've been an interesting and powerful scene. I wonder why Cersei missed the chance to be mean in the previous two chapters by telling Sansa that. She was woo distracted probably.

This reminds me of Jon. We never see his reactions to his brothers' or Cat's death or his feelings about Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion either. Actually he doesn't ever express concern as to where Sansa is. I get the impression that as of the end of ADWD, Sansa maybe generally assumed dead.

[Grail King]

In looking for more info on Sansa and the Lannister blood of Joffery there is this to add to the rest, The QOT is talking to Sansa as Butterbumps is singing, "Now child the truth .What sort of man is this joffery who goes by the name Baratheon but looks so very Lannister".

So again if she adds what she said to her dad, what she hears during the execution of Ned, and the Tywin spectacle I'm sure she pieced together that the Lannisters have shit for honor and as she said the Iron Throne isn't forgiving if your not meant to sit it.

[Grail King]

One thing I noticed on my last reread that it was never shown "onscreen" how Sansa reacted to the news of Bran and Rickon's "death", who told her this and when. We only have a mention in her second chapter of ASOS that she has received that piece of news some time ago. I think this is a shame, it could've been an interesting and powerful scene. I wonder why Cersei missed the chance to be mean in the previous two chapters by telling Sansa that. She was woo distracted probably.

This would fall under: what questions would you want to ask GRRM?

I would like to hear his answer, my guess is for right know I think the HBO series is filling in some holes so non readers understand the dynamics of the books, but should have been some emotions mentioned in the book, at least Robb's, Sansa could be just emotionally drained just from seeing her dad's head roll she can't cry any more tears at the moment, she tells Tyrion she doesn't want to know the details of her Mom and Robb's death

[Fragile Bird]

Fragile Bird, is the paperback edition really coming out on march!! I was under the impression it wouldn’t come out till july, a year after the hard-cover was released. Is the march thing confirmed?!

I just saw a story somewhere yesterday when looking through interview threads, but can I find it? Noooooo. I just have this panicked doubt that it was April.....makes me feel very morose, old age, memory going, having just read the thread on what character you'd spend a night with if you could, and the suggestion from the sweetlings that the thought of someone older than the characters or the actors could have the hots for one of them was gross. Sniff, sniff, sniff....I don't see what's wrong with me wanting a roll in the hay with Jaime, or Sandor, or Adam Marbrand..........

[PestilencE]

I've recently moved away from the idea that Sansa will grow to be a fully realised player in the Game. Despite her increasing awareness and knowledge of how things work, she simply lacks the required amorality and practicality. At her core, she's still that naive little girl that loves bard songs and lemon cakes.

[Thrice the Hound]

I've recently moved away from the idea that Sansa will grow to be a fully realised player in the Game. Despite her increasing awareness and knowledge of how things work, she simply lacks the required amorality and practicality. At her core, she's still that naive little girl that loves bard songs and lemon cakes.

I worry about that too at this point in the books. I don't know if Martin will be able to develop her convincingly enough to change that (that's if it is his plan to make her an effective player at all and didn't have some other plan for her). I do see some positive changes in later chapters but with only two more books to go with the 5 year gap cancelled I think it would be a challenge for Martin to make any big changes to her character. All that time lost to her may hurt any development ideas he had. Time will tell.

I dont think Cersei is that malicious, she is certainly Sansa's enemy and Joff's ally, but rubbing in you baby brothers death is a little much, even for our sweet Cersei

e.t.a. I was really not looking forward to Sansa's pov when she leans about the RW, it would be sad as hell. I'm glad that Tyrion told her "offscreen"

I wasn't, I thought it would have given us everything we need to know about how Sansa deals with stress and grief we never get her point of view when she finds out things. I think Martin deliberately does this so we cant see how her head works fully and that gives me some hope toward her becoming a strong player.

[Elba the Intoner]

Reading how LF may have had tyrion killed twice (dagger issue and the ser moore affair which I had never thought about) made me come up with the theory that when tyrion returns to westeros he will want to revenge himself on LF and then he will not only free sansa of LF’s grasp but also annul his marriage to sansa..?

The dontos part showed me that he obviously knew what the stones are, but when he says that they mean home, why don’t we get as others have mentioned a remark from her regarding bran and rickon’s death and winterfell being put to the torch? What’s home for her now? Riverrun with her mother?

Yes, I have been thinking for a while now that Tyrion has a lot of reason to hate LF. I've thought for a while that if it's not Sansa who takes down LF, then it will be Tyrion (assuming he manages to get back to Westeros). He knows that LF was behind the dagger that was used in the attack on Bran, though I don't think he suspects LF of paying off Mandon Moore, which I guess is speculation on our part as well. I wonder what his reaction will be if/when he finds out that LF took Sansa away after Joffrey's assassination. I think he would be ticked as hell, not so much because he's in love with Sansa and wants to stay married to her, which I don't really think he wants. But I think Tyrion would realize that LF was somehow behind framing him to look like he was the one who killed Joffrey.

I too have wondered why we don't get Sansa's or Jon's reactions to the news of the deaths of Bran and Rickon and later Robb.

[Summerqueen]

Also it seem that LF has twice tried to have Tyrion killed now. Once with the dagger implication and also with Ser Mandon Moore (possibly). Then he sets up Penny and Groat to rile Tyrion into making a scene. Both Sandor and LF seem to have a deep loathing of Tyrion and personal vendetta. The question is why?

Perhaps LF thinks of Tyrion as a sane and relatively non-selfish stone on the board. Neither his complete family loyalty (to Cersei-promoted folly or Tywin-promoted pride) nor well-meaning interference at the service of a greater sense of justice can be depended on. LF may simply find him too complex to be a pawn and not ambitious enough to be a player. It may not be that LF hates Tyrion but that he wants to remove him from the board as an unpredictable element.

[brashcandy]

I've recently moved away from the idea that Sansa will grow to be a fully realised player in the Game. Despite her increasing awareness and knowledge of how things work, she simply lacks the required amorality and practicality. At her core, she's still that naive little girl that loves bard songs and lemon cakes.

But isn't that a facet of human nature generally? That yes we get older, become more mature and intelligent, but there's an essential part of us we never lose? Sansa has already shown remarkable growth in just the space of two books, with two more to go in our analysis, and 2 left for GRRM to write. I see no reason why she can't develop into a player and still keep that love of lemoncakes and bard songs. Those are the things that make Sansa Sansa.

[jarl the climber]

Yes, I have been thinking for a while now that Tyrion has a lot of reason to hate LF. I've thought for a while that if it's not Sansa who takes down LF, then it will be Tyrion (assuming he manages to get back to Westeros). He knows that LF was behind the dagger that was used in the attack on Bran, though I don't think he suspects LF of paying off Mandon Moore, which I guess is speculation on our part as well. I wonder what his reaction will be if/when he finds out that LF took Sansa away after Joffrey's assassination. I think he would be ticked as hell, not so much because he's in love with Sansa and wants to stay married to her, which I don't really think he wants. But I think Tyrion would realize that LF was somehow behind framing him to look like he was the one who killed Joffrey.

I too have wondered why we don't get Sansa's or Jon's reactions to the news of the deaths of Bran and Rickon and later Robb.

Jon was beyond the wall during this time and when he finally gets the news he has to worry about holding the wall against Mance Ryder so he doesn't get a lot of time to dwell on it. I remember Sansa fantisizing about having children with Wilas Tyrell and naming them Eddard, Rickon and Brandon and raising them to hate Lannisters. Jon also expresses a desire to kill Lannisters in a conversation with Sam, we know he never liked Theon to begin with, I think he is a little confused because he saw Brans wolf at Queenscrown, him and Bran had a mindmeld in ACOK, and in aDWD he is certianly aware that Shaggy,Summer, and Nymeria are still alive and maybe deep down he realizes that there counterparts are as well.