From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

[Silverin]

Fragile bird:

If I rember correctly, when the Ironborne were attacking the Reach, it was mentioned that Willas made some pretty good assumptions about the attacks and strategical decisions so he definietly is among the smart Tyrell bunch. (Mace and Loras are not smart we can be sure of that even Olenna sais so. Marg is definietly smart, and I find Garland a mystery).

About why he is not married is more interesting. It can be because of more than one reason. I actually don't think it because he can't keep his hand off or something like that, since I am pretty sure there are more than one father ambitious enough to look past any kind of personality if it means his daughter marries the heir of Highgarden (Tywin wanted Cersei to marry him). I think it has more to do with the fact that he is the heir and he cannot marry anyone, his wife must be highborn and a suitable lady. But there are not many candidates and maybe for some parents the fact that he is a cripple might a turnoff. lets see the candidates we know of. Sansa and Arya from house Stark (so far a kids), Arianne (she is a Martell, I am not even sure they took her as a possibility. As far as I remember she was the one who considered marring him because of the choices her father give her, in order to piss him off), Asha (but she is a Greyjoy and she so far didn't have any marriage proposals), Myrcella and Shireen from House Baratheon (kids), there are no suitable girls from house Arryn or House Tully. So since most of the girls from the big houses are kids, they ight were waiting for them to grow up. And if they can't make a marriage allaince with a great house then it is not late to marry him to one of their bannermen's daughter. If I remember correctly Randyl Tarly has daughters, I dont't remember their age. I think they sould marry Willas with one of them. Randyl is said to be more than once a real threath, and if he were to support Aegon that would be a big loss for the Tyrell forces, that is why they should strengthen his loyalty.

[Aslerys]

The scene of Sansa with the Tyrell ladies is one of my favorites in the entire series; it is so well written. The sharpness of the Queen of Thorns, Sansa's fear and confusion and brave attempt to keep up her All-For-Joffrey facade only to finally lose it almost with relief and tell the truth, and the counterpoint of Butterbumps' singing The Bear and the Maiden Fair, really work well. Olenna and Margaery do a skillful bad cop/good cop number on Sansa; which does not reflect poorly on her, she's an isolated, friendless 12-year-old and these two are masters of manipulation. Again, we see how very much alone Sansa is; contrasted with the warm relationship of Margaery and her cousins and especially her wise and cunning grandmother. I did not think that Margaery was entirely faking her empathy and concern for Sansa; I think she genuinely pitied her and I think she did like her, but eventually dropped her as a friend out of political expedience (considering that Margaery was probably conspiring to murder her Lannister bridegroom-to-be, hanging out with his aunt-by-marriage might have been a bit dangerous anyway). They should have warned Sansa not to tell anyone about the betrothal to Willas.

:agree:

You said everything I wanted to say!

Btw I always loved this chapter not only because we see Sansa growing up but also because it is quite funny, some of QoT's lines are hilarious and after what happen in ACoK is good to read something in a lighter mood but of couse it was not meant to last...

[childofsummer]

And don't take Jaime - Sansa off the table yet. I have heard it said that the relationships between Stark and Lannister are so destroyed they will never be restored so many times my mind naturally turns towards it. And LF had that older man/younger woman speech (meaning himself of course) but it could foreshadow another May/December union. And finally, as Jaime tells his cousin Daven (and shades of LF!!!!) he found the older Tully girl intersting, but she was already engaged to some guy from up north. Wouldn't that be a bitch! Littlefinger dreams of Sansa, and Jaime and Sandor come riding into town, Sandor dies saving Sansa, and Jaime pledges himself to her.....on the orders of Stoneheart! :o

FB, I found your post very interesting, but:

JaimSan? nonononononononono!!! He pushed her brother out of the window, has three incestuous bastards by his evil twin sister (remember, it takes two to tango), injured and arrested her father, killed the guard captain she grew up with, and mentally cheered when Sansa was shackled to forced to marry Tyrion. Sansa might be good for Jaime, but Jaime would NOT be good for Sansa, IMO.

[childofsummer]

I found the contrast between the Tyrell clan and Sansa poignant in the extreme, because it highlighted how very, very alone Sansa was, and how much she had suffered for lack of a family to support her and sisters/brothers/friends to play, gossip, and be silly with. The contrast between Margaery's freedom to go riding and hawking, to say what she liked to her confidantes at night, to choose her servants, etc. and Sansa's lonely imprisonment must have pained Sansa greatly. It's a testament to her good nature that she doesn't resent Margaery and her family for being what she has lost, or treat the more naive girls with contempt (ref: Arya and the child with the doll) because they still believe in the fairy tales that have been so brutally shattered for Sansa. I wonder how differently things might have turned out if Margaery & co. had offered Sansa a place in their suite... at least, the Lannisters would not have been able to haul her off to be married.

[Elba the Intoner]

Yvonessen - thanks for the offer to do an avatar for me. That's so nice. I think I am going to try and see what I can come up with on my own now that I have some ideas of how to do it, and if I have trouble I'll let you know.

As for discussion of this chapter, I just wanted to say that I second what Lady of the North and Raksha said regarding the lost potential for Sansa to have been happy in Highgarden. Much as I love her relationship (or whatever it is that she has) with the Hound, I thought that her being given the chance to get out of Kings Landing and go to Highgarden had a lot of potential and I felt sorry when that got taken away from her too. I don't see the Tyrell's as all bad the way some others here do. I love Olenna and though her comments to Sansa seeming stupid were harsh, in that instance Sansa was kind of acting, well, silly if not exactly stupid, as she was fantasizing about marrying Loras when she knows he is in the Kingsguard and can't marry. I also don't think it's such a big deal that they are interested in Sansa's claim to Winterfell in and of itself, as that is a big part of Westeros tradition and like Raksha said above, I think they would have stuck up for her and protected her if she had become one of them through marriage, especially if Sansa would have tried to be a good wife and lady to Willas as we all know she would have done. Also, wasn't Garlan the one who tried to comfort Sansa at some point later in the book? Something about he asked her to dance and not look so unhappy - I can't remember off the top of my head exactly atm and don't have the book here. Anyway, I remember thinking that was nice of him and didn't get the sense that it was contrived or phony in any way. He seemed genuine in his concern for her.

[Elba the Intoner]

One other thing regarding the parallels between Willas and Sandor both having a bad leg but a good heart (I think it was Child of Summer's post) - that's a nice touch. I hadn't noticed it before. Of course I would have missed it on the first read since Sandor was not "lame" at this point so wouldn't have any reason to think of him when they are talking abut Willas being a cripple. (I put "lame" in quotes since it is still speculation at this point that Sandor is the lame novice on the QI and if so whether he is permanently lame). However, I did notice another parallel right away when reading this chapter even the first time, and that is between Willas and Bran. Sansa has her own brother who becomes a cripple but has a good heart and sweet temper. I think the similarity would have made Sansa sympathetic to Willas.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

maybe willas will marry Dany :)

:love: :spank: :smoking:

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Sansa wants puppies...

Sandor likes puppies and can give her lots of puppies (the human kind and the furry kind)....we shall see how the New and Improved, Rested and Relaxed Sandor is after his stay in rehab. He may emerge with a suntan, drinking a virgin pina colada and quoting Tolle

seems so many characters are rethinking their lives, thought processes and moral character. So many internal changes in so many different people.

[brashcandy]

Just a few pages back there I was going on about how we're moving away from the Sandor intensive book, now it looks like we'll be talking about Sandor more than ever :lol:

(Anyone who has a problem with this, take it up with George RR Martin)

However, I am curious to hear what others thought about Tyrion in his first chapter. Do you guys agree or disagree with my reading?

[Fragile Bird]

Just a few pages back there I was going on about how we're moving away from the Sandor intensive book, now it looks like we'll be talking about Sandor more than ever :lol:

(Anyone who has a problem with this, take it up with George RR Martin)

However, I am curious to hear what others thought about Tyrion in his first chapter. Do you guys agree or disagree with my reading?

I thought your analysis excellent as usual. I really liked Tyrion from the beginning, and then he starts this slow descent into a.............Lannister! A Tywin/Cersei Lannister. In AGOT he's the only one who disciplines Joffrey, he says wise things to Jon Snow, he goes to the Wall to see things for himself (unfortunately not believing about the nasties on the other side), he helps Bran, he survives Lysa, he's relatively honest with Cat etc etc. He does all kinds of good things. Later, he tries to rescue Jaime, he loves his Shae, he continues to discipline Joffrey, he's politically astute, he tells Sansa he doesn't intend that she marry Joffrey if he can help it (and I don't for one moment think he intended her to marry him), he protects Sansa from Joffrey, so many decent things.

But much of this happens as a free agent. The further he gets into the Lannister role, he turns into, sonofagun, a Lannister. That may even be unfair to say. He starts acting like someone in charge, and those in charge start to think differently because they have to consider the effect of their decisions over all. But he started changing once he became Hand, and after BBW when he gets undercut by his father things start to go rapidly downhill.

Looking at things from his POV, he's a member of the richest family in Westeros, brother to the queen regent, uncle to the king, he's smart and knows he can add value, and he just hates the way his father treats him. He's a real person in a body that people treat with disrespect, and I started to feel sorry for him except for those thoughts of his about his position in life and what he thought he was entitled to. And we know things are not going to go well for him.

He does accept what is pushed on him by his father.

I just had to delete what I wrote because I was getting ahead of myself, but at this point in the novel I still haven't turned against him. But I will.

[childofsummer]

Just a few pages back there I was going on about how we're moving away from the Sandor intensive book, now it looks like we'll be talking about Sandor more than ever :lol:

(Anyone who has a problem with this, take it up with George RR Martin)

However, I am curious to hear what others thought about Tyrion in his first chapter. Do you guys agree or disagree with my reading?

I may be a trifle more sympathetic toward Tyrion in this chapter. I agree that he is, for the most part, very self-centered at this point, which is (as FB said) something of a departure from his behavior earlier in the series. However, I think it's understandable to be miffed that your father won't let you inherit his castle, even after he is dead and gone and presumably past caring. I don't see it as a power grab as much as wanting what should be his - what would be his, but for his father's crazy, image-focused obsession with his dwarfism, which is in no way his fault. And I can excuse his frustration at being reviled and overlooked for his role in planning and fighting in the battle. His tactics were ruthless and shortsighted, but he was undeniably brave to go through that gate and engage Stannis's men in the fire and chaos. He certainly did more for the city's defense than Cersei and Joff. And though he was seriously hurt in the fighting, he had to wrest the barest acknowledgement of his bravery and injury from his father. He didn't get a knighthood or a public acknowledgment of service to the crown; he was unceremoniously pushed aside from the Hand position and ignored until he was needed as a Lannister representative. Yeah, he has a right to be bitter and to wallow a bit in self-pity. That being said...

He lost me when he agreed to marry Sansa against her will. That goes beyond mere self-absorption and ignoring others' pain; it actively harmed Sansa, which was inexcusable. Even though he didn't mean to be a bad husband to her, he knew he would be forcing her into a marriage she did not want, and denying her the marriage she was happily expecting. That decision on Tyrion's part made Sansa's stay in KL all the more heartbreaking.

[brashcandy]

Yeah, I understand his frustrations with regard to Casterly Rock, but I felt his other issues with losing control of the gold cloaks, wanting to prove Ser Mandon worked for Cersei, getting upset that the clansmen were thrown out the city etc, were indicative of a new power hungry Tyrion who is blinded to the legitimate grievances of others. He's been injured and out of it for weeks, but he wakes up seemingly expecting the situation to be under his control, and as awful as Tywin Lannister is, he really did only send Tyrion to KL to be acting Hand.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I was thrown back by his attitude when he realized everyone (smallfolk) hated him when in his eyes, he was doing all these marvelous things. Thing is, nothing he did helped the smallfolk. Unleashing his thugs aka clansmen, on the smallfolk definitely made things worse!

He didn't think much of Sansa because he didn't view her as a person any more than any of the other Lannisters. When he "saved" her at the beating, it wasn't done for her benefit, but for how "foolish" Joff was acting. it was done as a reprimand towards Joff. he also has this insecure need to be loved and wanted by the beautiful princess he feels is his right and entitlement. If he LOVED shae as much as he claimed, then why was he trying to woo Sansa and wanted to bed her so bad? If I were Shae, I would view that as betrayal. Especially as she was Sansa'a maid. She had it rubbed in her face that she was literally NOTHING but a whore to him.

He doesn't love the woman. He loves the object that is a woman. Sansa wasn't an actual living being to him. Sure he felt sorry for her but he only gave her reprieve due to her age. Somehow I doubt he would've granted her reprieve if she had been older. Now if Sansa had been ugly, fat....Lollys! If he had been forced to marry Lollys...we wouldve seen a different side to him.

[brashcandy]

I think that traditional logic has always been that Tyrion is different from the Lannisters - but focusing on this first chapter (so as to not jump ahead of the reread) he seems very much like them. His thoughts about not wanting to punish Tommen but if he didn't it would mean Cersei would win were classic Lannister - the need to pay debts sometimes simply just for the sake of paying a debt. (winning the game, not looking weak, etc)

Anyways, I've also realised that in the three times Sansa mentions Sandor in this chapter, it's in a different capacity each time:

1st - she remembers him saving her during the riot - protection/the Hound

2nd - (wishing he was there) she has kept his cloak and he's not a craven - honoring - people think the Hound was a coward, but she knows the personal story of the man.

3rd- compares him to Loras Tyrell and refers to him as Sandor - romantic potential in that she compares him to a man she is wildly attracted to?

[Raksha the Demon]

Excellent analyses, BrashCandy! And right on to your points about Tyrion!

Tyrion is, sadly, in this chapter, showing more of his Lannister colors than that of the lovable misfit 'Imp' of AGOT. He lost me when he was seriously thinking that he would have had to have his eight-year-old nephew whipped for the evil acts of the child's mother. Of course, the Tywin/Tyrion confrontation is heartbreaking, because it shows so much of what shaped Tyrion, what has been holding him down and twisting him since he was a child - Tywin's hatred of him. What kind of monster hates his own son for having been born, and born deformed? It's not as if Tyrion wanted to be a dwarf or to have his mother die in giving birth to him! It's not as if Tyrion had any choice at all in those matters, and Tywin should understand that. But the stresses of being born Tywin Lannister's child and being a dwarf (looked down upon figuratively as well as literally by practically everyone) and growing up with both the Lannister arrogance and his father's contempt have only made Tyrion stronger and unfortunately much meaner.

I did feel kind of sorry that Tyrion had tried very hard to be a good Hand, and had helped win the Battle of the Blackwater, but was almost totally overlooked after the battle; but he should be mature enough to take it in stride.

Christina, I do think Tyrion felt sorry for Sansa when he saw Joffrey having her beaten and humiliated - as well as annoyed with Joffrey. If he hadn't felt sorry for her, he would not have not only had her brought to his rooms and looked after, but talked to her. He does romanticize and objectify Sansa quite a bit, but he treated her better than the Tyrells did. (that being said, and getting ahead of the reading, what he put her through on their wedding night was pretty bad) When Tyrion first speaks to Sansa, I think it was in ACOK, and promises that he is only a little lion and will not 'savage' her; I think he thought of her as a child, and Tyrion does seem to have compassion for children - though I don't think it's going to last.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Well Loras is a pretty picture but not a real man. He is a stranger.

Sandor is real. She knows the person beneath the visage.

[brashcandy]

Thanks Raksha! :) This chapter really highlighted those core strengths that Sansa's possesses - humility and courtesy. Sure, she can mess up sometimes when she doesn't have the full picture (Loras and Renly's affair), but when she knelt to Margaery and then made sure to not show how disappointed she was with the Willas offer (so as to not offend the Tyrells), it again underscored just how she has the right mix of qualities to be a future Queen and player. Obviously these qualities have to matched by greater insight and more cunning, but I don't think they should be underestimated in how they can help her to win the love and trust of others.

[Fragile Bird]

FB, I found your post very interesting, but:

JaimSan? nonononononononono!!! He pushed her brother out of the window, has three incestuous bastards by his evil twin sister (remember, it takes two to tango), injured and arrested her father, killed the guard captain she grew up with, and mentally cheered when Sansa was shackled to forced to marry Tyrion. Sansa might be good for Jaime, but Jaime would NOT be good for Sansa, IMO.

Hey hey hey....it's always good to shit disturb now and then.

Keeps the little gray cells working.

Edit: @ brashcandy

Hey little brashie! I wrote a song for Sansa and Sandor, #426 on the songs for the Red Wedding page. Thought you'd like it. Don't know how to link....

[brashcandy]

Cool, FB! I'll check it out :)

ETA: Very nice, Fragile bird, I did enjoy it ;)

[Queen Cersei I]

Continued thoughts on chapter (from Sansa II)

2 questions:

1.Just why was Cersei trying to get Sansa drunk again?

1. My (perhaps incorrect) reading of the scene was that Cersei was never consciously trying to get Sansa drunk so much as dealing with stress and extreme fear of the moment (when her beloved son is in danger and all may come crashing down upon her) by freaking out and consuming alchohol excessively to deal with the stress.

On small side comment: A few have argued that this scenario shows Cersei as clearly a dim bulb, and that anyone who objects to the ultra, super stupid Cersei in AFFC must not have read it.

I am going to have to respectfully beg to differ. I love Sansa and have read all her chapters, and have always thought this chapter shows her as wise, cool, and canny far beyond her years.

However, in this scene I see Cersei acting incredibly stupid under a moment of extreme stress and emotional turmoil. She acts impulsively. If one pays attention to books one through three, she is actually (in terms of perception and accuity) of slightly above average intelligence. (Though by no means a Littlefinger or Tyrion-- or, perhaps, and adult Sansa. :laugh: ) IMO, she is fairly intelligent, save for moments involving great emotions-- whether it be anger, fear, or sadness-- where she acts impulsively and stupidly.

IMO, this is not so much what we see in AFFC. The issue that I and a few others have with that book is that Cersei acts with incredible stupidity throughout the duration of novel-- not just doing stupid things during times of stress, but forming elaborate, careful (stupid) plans, waiting ages, rubbing her hands together, and making one stupid decision after another. While Cersei is not a genius in books one through three and her emotionally driven reactions at times make her a questionable ruler, her behavior in AFFC is ridiculous. She goes from slightly above average to making Hodor look like a genius.

That said, I agree that this scene is one where Sansa's supperior political skills are shown. It also showcases in micro how generally fucked over Westerosi women are in times of crisis/ war. The common born ones are really and truly fucked (Shae et. al.)*, and the claims of the noble born ones to having it much better is pretty tenuous. Sansa is (apparently) finding a way to survive in this environment that doesn't involve fighting (like figures such as Arya, Brienne, and Asha do.)

IMO, this is pretty much what Sansa's storyline is about, more than any others-- survival. (Of course, this is very much a generalized theme for many POV's, however, with other characters, other themes-- the search for love, the discovory of identity, the struggle for honor-- take more importance.)

Going back to the idea (as one poster mentions) that Cersei and Sansa represent two different modes of femininity; two different ways for highborn females to survive in a male dominated environment without taking up swords and becoming virtual males in many respects.** Clearly, Sansa is the "right" way, Cersei is the wrong way. And I agree with this...mostly. Sansa's kindness and compassion is indeed better than Cersei's cruelty. Sansa's wisdom and coolness under pressure is indeed better than Cersei's impulsive, reckless emotionalism. Sansa's generosity is far better than Cersei's selfishness.

Some things seem questionable, though. GRRM's clear message is (and posters here have already echoed this sentiment-- that Cersei's horrific, dastardly "feminine weapons" are simply stupid and shortsighted; sure to lead a woman to ruin, and degrading for the entire sex.

I would argue that GRRM seems to find one of these-- using sex to get ahead-- extremely threatening. And while its fair to argue that women who do this today are selling themselves short, the fact is that this has not always been the case. Historically, some of the most successful and prominant women have used sex-- often the promise of it and the withholding of it-- to gain power and posiition, to great success. Anne Boleyn, Elizabeth Woodville (who, contrary to constant claims on these boards, was not at all like Cersei, save for her ambition and promoting her sizable family), Madam de Montspan, Diane de Poitiers, Jeanne Antoinette Poisson, and many, many others. Not only was using sex to manipulate men in past patriarchal societies not always degrading for the woman in question, it was, in some cases, wildly successful.

Also, one questions as to whether or not women should not be entitled to use any damn strategy they can get their hands on in a society where all women are pretty much up for grabs as rape victims according to the spoils of war.

That said, Sansa certainly emerges the victor in the game of thrones wits between herself and Cersei. Especially interesting to me is when Sansa reflects it is unwise that Cersei is calling Joffrey in, because people may panic. Here Cersei is panicking and acting on emotion; Sansa keeps her cool enough to analyze the situation. This uncanny ability of hers is seen at an earlier point, when, during the jousting match in AGOT, Jeyne Westerling cries and is horrified by what she sees, but Sansa is able to keep her emotions under control. This ability to keep cool and seperate her emotions from her reason during moments of stress lends credibility to the theory that Sansa may come to play a role politically in the future.

*On a somewhat random note-- does Shae's ruthlessness, hardness towards Lolys and a few others become more understandable to anyone else in light of how, as a Westerosi common born girl, she was basically without rights? Despite the fact that GRRM appears to demonize her for using the "weapon between her legs" (and every single other girl, common or highborn, who consciously does likewise), does her relative heartlessness and desperation to ascend the social ladder in any way she can suddenly make a lot more sense to anyone else in light of the general treatment the serving girls and other common born females are doomed to get here?

**Not that there is anything at all wrong with this-- but, IMO, it would be ridiculous and unrealistic to expect every Westerosi female to become a kickass warrior maiden a la Brienne or Asha.