From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

[Elba the Intoner]

Just a few pages back there I was going on about how we're moving away from the Sandor intensive book, now it looks like we'll be talking about Sandor more than ever :lol:

(Anyone who has a problem with this, take it up with George RR Martin)

So, I just got back from my daughter's middle school musical - they did Beauty and the Beast. How obsessed am I that I just could not help but think of Sandor and Sansa through the whole thing?! I know I know, I'm hopeless.

[Grail King]

1. My (perhaps incorrect) reading of the scene was that Cersei was never consciously trying to get Sansa drunk so much as dealing with stress and extreme fear of the moment (when her beloved son is in danger and all may come crashing down upon her) by freaking out and consuming alchohol excessively to deal with the stress.

On small side comment: A few have argued that this scenario shows Cersei as clearly a dim bulb, and that anyone who objects to the ultra, super stupid Cersei in AFFC must not have read it.

I am going to have to respectfully beg to differ. I love Sansa and have read all her chapters, and have always thought this chapter shows her as wise, cool, and canny far beyond her years.

However, in this scene I see Cersei acting incredibly stupid under a moment of extreme stress and emotional turmoil. She acts impulsively. If one pays attention to books one through three, she is actually (in terms of perception and accuity) of slightly above average intelligence. (Though by no means a Littlefinger or Tyrion-- or, perhaps, and adult Sansa. :laugh: ) IMO, she is fairly intelligent, save for moments involving great emotions-- whether it be anger, fear, or sadness-- where she acts impulsively and stupidly.

IMO, this is not so much what we see in AFFC. The issue that I and a few others have with that book is that Cersei acts with incredible stupidity throughout the duration of novel-- not just doing stupid things during times of stress, but forming elaborate, careful (stupid) plans, waiting ages, rubbing her hands together, and making one stupid decision after another. While Cersei is not a genius in books one through three and her emotionally driven reactions at times make her a questionable ruler, her behavior in AFFC is ridiculous. She goes from slightly above average to making Hodor look like a genius.

That said, I agree that this scene is one where Sansa's supperior political skills are shown. It also showcases in micro how generally fucked over Westerosi women are in times of crisis/ war. The common born ones are really and truly fucked (Shae et. al.)*, and the claims of the noble born ones to having it much better is pretty tenuous. Sansa is (apparently) finding a way to survive in this environment that doesn't involve fighting (like figures such as Arya, Brienne, and Asha do.)

IMO, this is pretty much what Sansa's storyline is about, more than any others-- survival. (Of course, this is very much a generalized theme for many POV's, however, with other characters, other themes-- the search for love, the discovory of identity, the struggle for honor-- take more importance.)

Going back to the idea (as one poster mentions) that Cersei and Sansa represent two different modes of femininity; two different ways for highborn females to survive in a male dominated environment without taking up swords and becoming virtual males in many respects.** Clearly, Sansa is the "right" way, Cersei is the wrong way. And I agree with this...mostly. Sansa's kindness and compassion is indeed better than Cersei's cruelty. Sansa's wisdom and coolness under pressure is indeed better than Cersei's impulsive, reckless emotionalism. Sansa's generosity is far better than Cersei's selfishness.

Some things seem questionable, though. GRRM's clear message is (and posters here have already echoed this sentiment-- that Cersei's horrific, dastardly "feminine weapons" are simply stupid and shortsighted; sure to lead a woman to ruin, and degrading for the entire sex.

I would argue that GRRM seems to find one of these-- using sex to get ahead-- extremely threatening. And while its fair to argue that women who do this today are selling themselves short, the fact is that this has not always been the case. Historically, some of the most successful and prominant women have used sex-- often the promise of it and the withholding of it-- to gain power and posiition, to great success. Anne Boleyn, Elizabeth Woodville (who, contrary to constant claims on these boards, was not at all like Cersei, save for her ambition and promoting her sizable family), Madam de Montspan, Diane de Poitiers, Jeanne Antoinette Poisson, and many, many others. Not only was using sex to manipulate men in past patriarchal societies not always degrading for the woman in question, it was, in some cases, wildly successful.

Also, one questions as to whether or not women should not be entitled to use any damn strategy they can get their hands on in a society where all women are pretty much up for grabs as rape victims according to the spoils of war.

That said, Sansa certainly emerges the victor in the game of thrones wits between herself and Cersei. Especially interesting to me is when Sansa reflects it is unwise that Cersei is calling Joffrey in, because people may panic. Here Cersei is panicking and acting on emotion; Sansa keeps her cool enough to analyze the situation. This uncanny ability of hers is seen at an earlier point, when, during the jousting match in AGOT, Jeyne Westerling cries and is horrified by what she sees, but Sansa is able to keep her emotions under control. This ability to keep cool and seperate her emotions from her reason during moments of stress lends credibility to the theory that Sansa may come to play a role politically in the future.

*On a somewhat random note-- does Shae's ruthlessness, hardness towards Lolys and a few others become more understandable to anyone else in light of how, as a Westerosi common born girl, she was basically without rights? Despite the fact that GRRM appears to demonize her for using the "weapon between her legs" (and every single other girl, common or highborn, who consciously does likewise), does her relative heartlessness and desperation to ascend the social ladder in any way she can suddenly make a lot more sense to anyone else in light of the general treatment the serving girls and other common born females are doomed to get here?

**Not that there is anything at all wrong with this-- but, IMO, it would be ridiculous and unrealistic to expect every Westerosi female to become a kickass warrior maiden a la Brienne or Asha.

You meant Poole not Westerling I presumed.

I have no problem with women using their charms back then, they had very few options, but Shae is bitter, she lies to Tyrion ( and he deserves it), her treatment towards Lolly is vindictive and uncalled for as the poor girl was ganged raped, she shows the same cruelty when discussing Tysha with Tyrion and I think it shows her lying to herself she's on a power trip and willing to sacrifice anyone including Tyrion who in his misguided self treats her rather well, of course he's looking for a quasi wife and she's willing to play that game. Shae is also jealous of Sansa a 12 year old girl who is forced into a very bad position for survival and had no qualms in trying to force her way into the wedding feast.

[brashcandy]

@Queen Cersei, very well said, and I do mostly agree with you. Those three chapters that Sansa spent under Cersei's tutelage were fascinating for what they revealed about both women, and whilst at the time it was necessary for Sansa to reject Cersei's advice, if we can call it that, it's interesting how in her later arc we might see her having to utilize the same manipulative, feminine wiles that Cersei advocated in ACOK. We know that Cersei and Sansa are paralleled in many ways throughout the book, but of course what separates one from the other is that Sansa still retains a compassionate, innocent side that is seldom present in Cersei's interaction with others, at least genuinely. Cersei in my view, represents what Sansa could have become, a woman reacting against the constraints of gender, time and place, and completely determined to seize power no holds barred. Sansa on the other hand, has always wanted more of a familial existence, and power, if she gets it, will not be something she actively sought. There is no right or wrong here. Both positions are valid, but it will be the approaches that determine success.

As for the contrast between Cersei behaviour during the battle and later on in AFFC, I do agree that AFFC really characterized Cersei as completely incompetent and campy, but I would still argue that the early books do hint at an innate recklessness that could lead to mistakes if not checked.

And yes, Shae's behaviour is understandable in light of what these lowborn girls face, even without the threat of battle and pillaging. It's a fact that sex as a commodity is oftentimes the only thing these girls have to trade and bargain with and when we consider what happens to Alayaya in this current chapter, being whipped and scourged, one cannot blame them for the heartlessness and bitterness they may show towards the nobility and other women. Still, to bring this back to Sansa, there is something to be said for having kindness and empathy for others, especially ones like Lollys, who have been terribly victimized and cannot even articulate their suffering. This is the quality that Sansa has that truly makes her shine.

[Queen Cersei I]

You meant Poole not Westerling I presumed.

Fool! Can you not see that there was a tear in the space-time continuum, through which Westerling came hurtling out, raplacing her rival Poole?

Or else...yeah... totally wrote "westerling" while thinking "poole". Sorry. :blushing:

You meant Poole not Westerling I presumed.

I have no problem with women using their charms back then, they had very few options, but Shae is bitter, she lies to Tyrion ( and he deserves it), her treatment towards Lolly is vindictive and uncalled for as the poor girl was ganged raped, she shows the same cruelty when discussing Tysha with Tyrion and I think it shows her lying to herself she's on a power trip and willing to sacrifice anyone including Tyrion who in his misguided self treats her rather well, of course he's looking for a quasi wife and she's willing to play that game. Shae is also jealous of Sansa a 12 year old girl who is forced into a very bad position for survival and had no qualms in trying to force her way into the wedding feast.

I actually recall (unless I were mistaken) Shae's words about Lolly's being, "Why is she crying so much? A bunch of men just fucked her, that's all." Horrifying and callous though this was, it made me suspect that Shae may be no stranger to rape herself. And that rape was so unexceptional as almost to be par for the course, and "no big deal" to her.

That said, her attitude towards Lolys was pretty calous. (I recall at one point her calling Lolys a pig, and saying that all she does is eat and sleep all day, etc.)

However, when considering Shae's attitude towards Lolys and Sansa, it does help to look at things from her perspective. She has had to work her whole life (selling her body, being a maid, or what have you) for everything. Then she sees these women who seem to have it all (in her mind) and have done (in her eyes) nothing to earn it. (Believing that Lolys and Sansa have it made is obviously a wildly inaccurate perception on Shae's part, however, it is nevertheless a typical one from her viewpoint.) She seems to especially resent Lolys who does not work at anything active.

It is also worth saying that perhaps, in her attitude towards Lolys, Shae is merely imitating her employer in the hopes of gaining more ground with him. Compared to Tyrion's attitude (portrayed as funny/ witty rather than evil, for some reason) Shae's own is actually somewhat less callous. Tyrion actually makes jokes about the gang rape itself, referring to it at another point as Lolys having been "enjoyed."

As for Sansa, it makes sense in my eyes that Shae saw her as a rival. In Shae's very limited perception, Tyrion is her man (and main source of income) and is being stolen by some noble girl. It would make sense if Shae resented and envied Sansa for having noble birth, virginity, status, never having to have worked as a prostitute, ect.

Of course, these perceptions (especially of Sansa) are ridiculous. Nor does Shae's situation make up for her incredibly nasty attitude towards both Lolys and Sansa. However, IMO, these attitudes do seem to come from somewhere more than just blatant spite and cruelty on Shae's part.

Also-- IMO, Tyrion's attitude towards the two is hardly more enlightened. He finds Lolys foul and useless because he does not want to sleep with her. He makes several crass, unnecessary, cruel jokes about her and her lack of desirability following her gang rape.

Meanwhile, his "kindly" and "gentle" treatment of Sansa has also smelled somewhat less pure to me than others appear to see it. IMO, he was strongly sexually attracted to Sansa. He is thrilled to marry her, and clearly desires her sexually. However, his "concern" for the girl seems based in his desire for her as a beautiful sexual object, and his need for a love interest/ Tysha clone to project his idealized fantasies onto. Not for nothing in ADWD does Tyrion count Sansa (along with Shae and Tysha) as the girls who have "left" him. (Though he notes at the end that Tysha is by far the best of them, since she never really did leave him... he only thought she did.)

Still, to bring this back to Sansa, there is something to be said for having kindness and empathy for others, especially ones like Lollys, who have been terribly victimized and cannot even articulate their suffering. This is the quality that Sansa has that truly makes her shine.

Oh yeah, I agree. And as I noted above, IMO, something that is rarely mentioned about Shae is how closely morally she resembles her employer. (In some ways, I think Shae's one dimensional perception of Sansa was in some ways close to Tyrion's idealized/ fantasized perception of her. She was Tysha II, if you catch my drift.)

IMO, Sansa is clearly superior to both of them.

[brashcandy]

IMO, Sansa is clearly superior to both of them.

That's for sure. After reviewing Tyrion's first chapter of ASOS where he bitches and moans about how he's been eclipsed by his father and sister whilst he was recovering and then contemplating having to whip Tommen to prove a point to Cersei, I was thoroughly perturbed. Contrast this with Sansa who has to worry that a trap is being laid for her when she goes to visit Marg and kneels to the girl without any pretensions, and it's easy to see who the better, more mature person is.

[Summerqueen]

:agree: Queen Cersei I—

And I think that we'll see Martin showing us that Sansa will find the successful way for women to have and use power, working from within the system (however un-/desirable we may argue that system is). In contrast to Brienne, who plays the system in drag, as it were, and receives mostly scorn in return and is largely unable to affect change, Sansa is learning subtlety and manipulation. Unlike Arya, who is relegated to impacting the system from without it (as a renegade figure, No One), Sansa is learning how to take players off the board (without directly killing them herself) for her own advancement inside the system. Though the evidence is inconclusive, I really do believe Martin plans to take Sansa pretty far in the game.

[Fragile Bird]

That's for sure. After reviewing Tyrion's first chapter of ASOS where he bitches and moans about how he's been eclipsed by his father and sister whilst he was recovering and then contemplating having to whip Tommen to prove a point to Cersei, I was thoroughly perturbed. Contrast this with Sansa who has to worry that a trap is being laid for her when she goes to visit Marg and kneels to the girl without any pretensions, and it's easy to see who the better, more mature person is.

And you know something else about Sansa v. Cersei? I bet she never even once tried twist off Rickon's little fat pink mast!

[Morte]

First thanks for the great summery and analysis. :)

Just a few pages back there I was going on about how we're moving away from the Sandor intensive book, now it looks like we'll be talking about Sandor more than ever :lol:

(Anyone who has a problem with this, take it up with George RR Martin)

However, I am curious to hear what others thought about Tyrion in his first chapter. Do you guys agree or disagree with my reading?

Well, yes and no. ;)

Just as Fragile Bird said:

But much of this happens as a free agent. The further he gets into the Lannister role, he turns into, sonofagun, a Lannister. That may even be unfair to say. He starts acting like someone in charge, and those in charge start to think differently because they have to consider the effect of their decisions over all. But he started changing once he became Hand, and after BBW when he gets undercut by his father things start to go rapidly downhill.

Looking at things from his POV, he's a member of the richest family in Westeros, brother to the queen regent, uncle to the king, he's smart and knows he can add value, and he just hates the way his father treats him. He's a real person in a body that people treat with disrespect, and I started to feel sorry for him except for those thoughts of his about his position in life and what he thought he was entitled to. And we know things are not going to go well for him.

Tyrion is his father's son, and while he does keep some feelings toward his friends, he does act like a person in power. That I find most intersting about his conversation with Tywin is, that either his father is absolutly delusions about the abilities of his other children, or he simply does not want to admit to himself that Tyrion is a that good a player - to not give him credits for his plans for the battle of Blackwater.

In fact I think we see a glimps of why Genna is afraid of "Tyrion in family destruction mode": he is better in the game then even Tywin. We see this then it comes to LF - Tywin does let himself be blinded by social standing and heritage, this way not seeing LF as a threat at all, not even thinking about that this one might plan, while Tyrion does see LF as a dangerous player.

I found his bitterness understandable in this scene, but also quite heartbreaking, because it shows that all Tyrion does, he does to earn respect (mainly from his father, but also from the rest of the nobles of Westeros) - and he does not get it. It also remindes me of how abused children still try to get the love and affection from their abusing parents,.

I disagree that he does not show compassion for other in that scene, as he does: not only toward Alayaya, but also toward the Black Ears, who fought for the people in KL and were chased out the city as a "thank you".

Of all the people he brought, I think the Mountain Clans were the only truely loyal, and may play a major roll either in Tyrions own plotline, or in Sansa's, then she does flee LF.

About Sansa and the Tyrells:

I'm not sure if they did plan to frame her from the beginning, or if they truely wanted to marry her to Willas. From a House-strategic point of view, Sansa being married to Willas would be better for the Tyrell, as this way they would have a link to the claim of Winterfell (I don't think they care about Sansa being happy, they care for her claim, being second and last in line with all the other siblings expect Robb being presumed dead).

But when, putting the poison in Sansa's hairnet was something they agreed with, and as they did not know about LF's escape plan for her, by the time they made their move against Joff, they no longer cared about Sansa (maybe because they knew about Tywin's plans with the Boltons, and as the RW did succeed, Sansa was no longer of any value for them) , as if she had been caught, the hairnet would be the evidence against her and Tyrion.

The plan itself however was most likely Littlefinger's ("Trust me Lady Oleanna, I will see to a fitting suspect." :stillsick: ). This way he not only wanted to get rid of Tyrion, but also to put Sansa in a situation, in which she couldn't run away from him after being "rescued" - being accused for murder. The more I think about LF's plans the more disgusted I feel at him :ack:

[Lyanna Stark]

Late to the party here, but I hope that's ok.

I think that traditional logic has always been that Tyrion is different from the Lannisters - but focusing on this first chapter (so as to not jump ahead of the reread) he seems very much like them. His thoughts about not wanting to punish Tommen but if he didn't it would mean Cersei would win were classic Lannister - the need to pay debts sometimes simply just for the sake of paying a debt. (winning the game, not looking weak, etc)

Tyrion is different from the other Lannisters or at least thinks of himself as different, but as we have seen, he really thinks and acts like a Tywin Jr when put in a position of power. Despite his handicap, Tyrion has always lead a life of privilige. I think his journey to meet Dany was his journey to the bottom, and he needs to learn some important life lessons before he can come back. Perhaps not as New and Improved Tyrion, but as a wiser Tyrion and a smarter one. He's also been put in positions of powerlessness in a different way than he has before. Just like Sansa, he has been stripped of his title and any entitlement he had and I think it will prove important for him to learn that, just like it will prove important for Sansa to learn to be someone like Alayne Stone. So yes, Tyrion is very much a Lannister at this stage in the novels and imho, it culminates with him killing Tywin.

Anyways, I've also realised that in the three times Sansa mentions Sandor in this chapter, it's in a different capacity each time:

1st - she remembers him saving her during the riot - protection/the Hound

2nd - (wishing he was there) she has kept his cloak and he's not a craven - honoring - people think the Hound was a coward, but she knows the personal story of the man.

3rd- compares him to Loras Tyrell and refers to him as Sandor - romantic potential in that she compares him to a man she is wildly attracted to?

I've always been of the opinion that even if there are some romantic overtones in the Sandor/Sansa exchanges, what really stands out is Sandor as a replacement for Lady and the direwolf connection to the North. Sandow is tall, black haired, fierce, honest, roughspun and Not a Knight, which is a very...northern way of being. Far so than any of the pretty, foppish knights of the south. Almost every time she considers Lady or wishes Lady were there, he appears either in person, or in her thoughts shortly afterwards. The same thing with the cloak she wraps her with: it's first and foremost as a guardian or protector Sandor appears in her life. At this time at least, since even though Sansa is getting older and turning into a grown woman, she is not there yet.

From his point of view, when he talks about leaving her in KL, he seems to feel strongly that he failed her when he hears she married Tyrion. It also fits with the whole "Knight as protector" thing, even though Sandor denies it.

Interestingly, we have been told that GRRM thinks of all the Stark children as wargs, but with various degrees of skill at it. This means that even Sansa is to a degree a warg. It's interesting to note that Sandor is either referred to directly as "Dog" or as a rabid animal. I doubt Sansa's warging will ever be as prominent as Bran's or Jon's, but it raises interesting questions regarding mental/spiritual connections and what is possible in that realm. The Stark children seem to have prophetic dreams all of them (well, we don't get a Robb or Rickon POV, but the rest do), perhaps linked to their warging abilities? Sansa's abilities seem to be the weakest so far, which is only natural since she lost Lady, but Sandor does appear in her dreams, in the capability or advisor/protector.

[voodooqueen126]

I may be a trifle more sympathetic toward Tyrion in this chapter. I agree that he is, for the most part, very self-centered at this point, which is (as FB said) something of a departure from his behavior earlier in the series. However, I think it's understandable to be miffed that your father won't let you inherit his castle, even after he is dead and gone and presumably past caring. I don't see it as a power grab as much as wanting what should be his - what would be his, but for his father's crazy, image-focused obsession with his dwarfism, which is in no way his fault. And I can excuse his frustration at being reviled and overlooked for his role in planning and fighting in the battle. His tactics were ruthless and shortsighted, but he was undeniably brave to go through that gate and engage Stannis's men in the fire and chaos. He certainly did more for the city's defense than Cersei and Joff. And though he was seriously hurt in the fighting, he had to wrest the barest acknowledgement of his bravery and injury from his father. He didn't get a knighthood or a public acknowledgment of service to the crown; he was unceremoniously pushed aside from the Hand position and ignored until he was needed as a Lannister representative. Yeah, he has a right to be bitter and to wallow a bit in self-pity. That being said...

He lost me when he agreed to marry Sansa against her will. That goes beyond mere self-absorption and ignoring others' pain; it actively harmed Sansa, which was inexcusable. Even though he didn't mean to be a bad husband to her, he knew he would be forcing her into a marriage she did not want, and denying her the marriage she was happily expecting. That decision on Tyrion's part made Sansa's stay in KL all the more heartbreaking.

My partner were discussing the Mahabhatata, which is about the conflict between the Kaurava brothers (who are descended from the older brother) and the Pandava brothers. The Pandava brothers are the heroes and the rightful heirs to the throne, because the Kaurava brothers, though their father is older, have been passed over in succession because their father is blind.

This decision is valid, because you can't have blind king, nor the sons of a blind king.

[Lyanna Stark]

Double post since the edit function seems borked at the moment.

:agree: Queen Cersei I—

And I think that we'll see Martin showing us that Sansa will find the successful way for women to have and use power, working from within the system (however un-/desirable we may argue that system is). In contrast to Brienne, who plays the system in drag, as it were, and receives mostly scorn in return and is largely unable to affect change, Sansa is learning subtlety and manipulation. Unlike Arya, who is relegated to impacting the system from without it (as a renegade figure, No One), Sansa is learning how to take players off the board (without directly killing them herself) for her own advancement inside the system. Though the evidence is inconclusive, I really do believe Martin plans to take Sansa pretty far in the game.

Cersei is such an interesting character and set up as a paralell to Sansa. It's also nice to see a woman so bitter and angry with a patriarchal society as Cersei, but of course, she goes about getting the upper hand in a completely arse about face way! The Queen of Thorns has clearly managed to play the Game despite being female, simply by being more shrewd than most, while Cersei uses her looks, birth and riches as LF points out. He also (I think correctly) says "but only one of those is really her own" and he also states she wants power, but doesn't know what to do with it.

With LF training, Sansa can surely become more like tQoT than Cersei. She's already learnt to see through people, now she just needs to learn how to gauge what they're really after, and then find a method to move them through this. So a woman playing inside the system. I agree that GRRM has plans for Sansa, with the way she was presented as a vapid, shallow creature and then being put through the grinder completely. She goes from being starry eyed and naive to being guarded and reflective, but still avoids becoming bitter and cynical like Cersei. It's also always interesting to see a female character in a more traditionally female role be both interesting and show some massive character growth.

[Raksha the Demon]

Late to the party here, but I hope that's ok.

Tyrion is different from the other Lannisters or at least thinks of himself as different, but as we have seen, he really thinks and acts like a Tywin Jr when put in a position of power. Despite his handicap, Tyrion has always lead a life of privilige. I think his journey to meet Dany was his journey to the bottom, and he needs to learn some important life lessons before he can come back. Perhaps not as New and Improved Tyrion, but as a wiser Tyrion and a smarter one. He's also been put in positions of powerlessness in a different way than he has before. Just like Sansa, he has been stripped of his title and any entitlement he had and I think it will prove important for him to learn that, just like it will prove important for Sansa to learn to be someone like Alayne Stone. So yes, Tyrion is very much a Lannister at this stage in the novels and imho, it culminates with him killing Tywin.

I've always been of the opinion that even if there are some romantic overtones in the Sandor/Sansa exchanges, what really stands out is Sandor as a replacement for Lady and the direwolf connection to the North. Sandow is tall, black haired, fierce, honest, roughspun and Not a Knight, which is a very...northern way of being. Far so than any of the pretty, foppish knights of the south. Almost every time she considers Lady or wishes Lady were there, he appears either in person, or in her thoughts shortly afterwards. The same thing with the cloak she wraps her with: it's first and foremost as a guardian or protector Sandor appears in her life. At this time at least, since even though Sansa is getting older and turning into a grown woman, she is not there yet.

From his point of view, when he talks about leaving her in KL, he seems to feel strongly that he failed her when he hears she married Tyrion. It also fits with the whole "Knight as protector" thing, even though Sandor denies it.

Interestingly, we have been told that GRRM thinks of all the Stark children as wargs, but with various degrees of skill at it. This means that even Sansa is to a degree a warg. It's interesting to note that Sandor is either referred to directly as "Dog" or as a rabid animal. I doubt Sansa's warging will ever be as prominent as Bran's or Jon's, but it raises interesting questions regarding mental/spiritual connections and what is possible in that realm. The Stark children seem to have prophetic dreams all of them (well, we don't get a Robb or Rickon POV, but the rest do), perhaps linked to their warging abilities? Sansa's abilities seem to be the weakest so far, which is only natural since she lost Lady, but Sandor does appear in her dreams, in the capability or advisor/protector.

Good points, L.S. I would add only that Sandor seems to have been far more successful in his role as Sansa's protector and advisor than he has been as a potential lover. It was Sandor who advised Sansa to continue to sweet-talk Joffrey, when Sansa wondered (at the end of AGOT) what Joffrey wanted from her; and it was Sandor who has always spoken to her honestly, and who has saved her physically from the rioting mob. Sandor has (so far) failed as Sansa's love interest because Sansa is much too young and Sandor himself is too emotionally damaged to even accept that he could be worthy of her love. But there's no denying that Sandor has exerted a profound influence on Sansa and that she misses him and feels that she still needs him.

There's also King Robert's remark to Ned about getting Sansa a dog; right before (I think) Sandor turns up near Sansa. Perhaps Sandor is something of a spirit-guardian to Sansa, someone whose influence can help her in her thoughts after he is gone, especially since she is going to need other voices in her head besides Littlefinger's....

[Thrice the Hound]

Of all the people he brought, I think the Mountain Clans were the only truely loyal, and may play a major roll either in Tyrions own plotline, or in Sansa's, then she does flee LF.

The plan itself however was most likely Littlefinger's ("Trust me Lady Oleanna, I will see to a fitting suspect." :stillsick: ). This way he not only wanted to get rid of Tyrion, but also to put Sansa in a situation, in which she couldn't run away from him after being "rescued" - being accused for murder. The more I think about LF's plans the more disgusted I feel at him :ack:

Do you think that the mountain clans would still see Tyrion as a kind of leader of theirs and recognise Sansa as Tyrion's wife? Would that be a shocking twist, that Sansa fulfills Tyrions promise to the clans that they will become the rulers of the Vale so long as they help her escape or take the Iron Throne. I know I'd be stunned.

I agree with you on the plan being Littlefinger's, he used the Lannisters and Tyrells to keep Sansa for himself. I think this was in the works the moment he saw Sansa at the tourney and threw his Catelyn replacement plan into action.

I liked Tyrion's chapter I only took his outbursts to scourage Tommen as angry bluster I don't think if it came down to it he could do it even if it meant Cersei won.

I think he was sympathetic to others too as others have noted about Yaya. I would be angry too if I had put my life on the line for the city and family and got no thank you for it and then pushed into the background once my more handsome and full sized daddy arrived.

I don't mind either that he agreed to marry Sansa as I have mentioned before it could have been worse for her and that marriage was going to offer her some protection in the mean time. I think people get carried away a little too much on her not having a say, no woman really has a say in westeros and as Sansa is a ward of the crown that's the way it is so I don't think it is fair to judge Tyrion based on something he has no control over when it comes down to it. It would not have served anyones interest if he just outright refused just because, it would not have been believable in this story. Tyrion's ideas are more progressive than most of the characters in this series but for him to totally refuse based on Sansa being a maiden would have been hard to swallow. I doubt Jamie for example would have defied his father when told to do his duty if Jamie had been in Tyrions place or anyone else for that matter.

[brashcandy]

Great posts Lyanna Stark. I won't get into too much on Sansa's dreams etc as they come later on, just to add that when she dreams of him (or has a fantasy) it is not in his role as her protector, although I agree that Martin does establish him as a replacement for Lady.

Anyways, what I found interesting is how random Sansa's remark was in this chapter concerning Sandor: "I wish the Hound were here." At that point she has already accepted Marg's letter, she's realised that no one can save her but Florian (Dontos) and she's mindful that she has to bide her time until Joff's wedding night to escape. Wishing then the Hound were there seems at least in the most part, to be a personal desire for his companionship.

@Morte- I loved your post as usual :) But with regard to the Mountain clans - they had gone about terrorizing the KL people from the time they arrived in the city. The people were perfectly right to have no love for them, and Tyrion had ignored the reports of their rampaging. I thought what Tywin told him about seeing the need to have beasts around to your bidding was quite apt. Tyrion wants to keep men like the Mountain Clans and Bronn there for his dirty work, but still wants to act as though they are harmless.

[brashcandy]

Note: I know it's tempting to jump ahead and discuss the marriage and all that, but please be mindful to stick to the current chapter everyone :)

[Lyanna Stark]

Great posts Lyanna Stark. I won't get into too much on Sansa's dreams etc as they come later on, just to add that when she dreams of him (or has a fantasy) it is not in his role as her protector, although I agree that Martin does establish him as a replacement for Lady.

Anyways, what I found interesting is how random Sansa's remark was in this chapter concerning Sandor: "I wish the Hound were here." At that point she has already accepted Marg's letter, she's realised that no one can save her but Florian (Dontos) and she's mindful that she has to bide her time until Joff's wedding night to escape. Wishing then the Hound were there seems at least in the most part, to be a personal desire for his companionship.

Ah the board ate my post!

And I need to respond to from the bottom up, too :)

Regarding Sansa's comment about how she wishes Lady were there, at this point in the novels she often substitutes wishing for Lady with wishing that Sandor was there, and that bit, I think, is more a straight forward wish for a guardian/protector/advisor in a very hostile environment. I'm not sure she is really at a stage where she appreciates his companionship, or at least not consciously. Sandor gets to be stand in both for Sansa's family and for her wolf, in this sense. It also doesn't carry any romantic overtones, like her later dreams so it feels more straight forward and less ...ambiguous?

How he appears in her dreams I think is twofold: firstly he again takes on the role as advisor/guardian (especially when he advises her to smell out the lies) and secondly she does project her own awakening sexuality onto him, although it's still ambiguous, fairly blurred and still nowhere near a stage where she thinks or feels about this as a grown woman would. (As a sidenote, I think few people would be as shocked by this as the target himself, LOL).

I will try and not get ahead of the reading though, my apologies for getting ahead of schedule. :blushing:

[Thrice the Hound]

Regarding Sansa's comment about how she wishes Lady were there, at this point in the novels she often substitutes wishing for Lady with wishing that Sandor was there, and that bit, I think, is more a straight forward wish for a guardian/protector/advisor in a very hostile environment. I'm not sure she is really at a stage where she appreciates his companionship, or at least not consciously. Sandor gets to be stand in both for Sansa's family and for her wolf, in this sense. It also doesn't carry any romantic overtones, like her later dreams so it feels more straight forward and less ...ambiguous?

:agree: she is really insecure about meeting the Tyrells alone not knowing what to expect. She has come to recognise the Hound as a protector and so probably wants him there to ask his advice and have him present to draw some confidence and security from his presence.

[brashcandy]

Ah the board ate my post!

And I need to respond to from the bottom up, too :)

Regarding Sansa's comment about how she wishes Lady were there, at this point in the novels she often substitutes wishing for Lady with wishing that Sandor was there, and that bit, I think, is more a straight forward wish for a guardian/protector/advisor in a very hostile environment. I'm not sure she is really at a stage where she appreciates his companionship, or at least not consciously. Sandor gets to be stand in both for Sansa's family and for her wolf, in this sense. It also doesn't carry any romantic overtones, like her later dreams so it feels more straight forward and less ...ambiguous?

How he appears in her dreams I think is twofold: firstly he again takes on the role as advisor/guardian (especially when he advises her to smell out the lies) and secondly she does project her own awakening sexuality onto him, although it's still ambiguous, fairly blurred and still nowhere near a stage where she thinks or feels about this as a grown woman would. (As a sidenote, I think few people would be as shocked by this as the target himself, LOL).

I will try and not get ahead of the reading though, my apologies for getting ahead of schedule. :blushing:

I agree on the usual ambiguity of her thoughts on him, and I guess the reason this one strikes me as so unusual is precisely because it's such a straightforward expression of a desire! We hardly ever get these from Sansa when it comes to him. :) She goes on to say that sometimes she stays up at night wondering if she should have gone with him, which indicates her appreciation of how he may have protected her and obviously is no longer around to do so. And she cannot explain why she has kept the cloak..

[Morte]

Do you think that the mountain clans would still see Tyrion as a kind of leader of theirs and recognise Sansa as Tyrion's wife? Would that be a shocking twist, that Sansa fulfills Tyrions promise to the clans that they will become the rulers of the Vale so long as they help her escape or take the Iron Throne. I know I'd be stunned.

Yes, I do think that the clan will play a role in at least one of the plotlines (if not both, because Tyrion and Sansa will meet later). Actually it would be possible for Sansa to run into the clans if she does escape with Sweetrobin - and maybe she can convince them to help her and Robin because 1. she's Tyrion's wife and 2. (she'll be able to put one and one together when she meets the clans) because Robin is Timmets relative.

This will be a very interesting topic when we reach the chapters in the Vale.

I liked Tyrion's chapter I only took his outbursts to scourage Tommen as angry bluster I don't think if it came down to it he could do it even if it meant Cersei won.

I think he was sympathetic to others too as others have noted about Yaya. I would be angry too if I had put my life on the line for the city and family and got no thank you for it and then pushed into the background once my more handsome and full sized daddy arrived.

I agree. Tyrion is not able to hurt Tommen, he is - horrible enough, but still something different - just thinking about how Cersei had infact already won, simply because he can't hurt his neph.

I don't mind either that he agreed to marry Sansa as I have mentioned before it could have been worse for her and that marriage was going to offer her some protection in the mean time. I think people get carried away a little too much on her not having a say, no woman really has a say in westeros and as Sansa is a ward of the crown that's the way it is so I don't think it is fair to judge Tyrion based on something he has no control over when it comes down to it. It would not have served anyones interest if he just outright refused just because, it would not have been believable in this story. Tyrion's ideas are more progressive than most of the characters in this series but for him to totally refuse based on Sansa being a maiden would have been hard to swallow. I doubt Jamie for example would have defied his father when told to do his duty if Jamie had been in Tyrions place or anyone else for that matter.

Not long and we will be able to discuss this in full. :)

@Morte- I loved your post as usual :) But with regard to the Mountain clans - they had gone about terrorizing the KL people from the time they arrived in the city. The people were perfectly right to have no love for them, and Tyrion had ignored the reports of their rampaging. I thought what Tywin told him about seeing the need to have beasts around to your bidding was quite apt. Tyrion wants to keep men like the Mountain Clans and Bronn there for his dirty work, but still wants to act as though they are harmless.

Thank you, I think this is a good moment to thank you all for this great re-reading thread. :)

On the Clans and Tyrion:

Of course the people of King's Landing have a completely different view on the clans - but Tyrion does care for them, because, even if they were savage, they did accept him. I think it would not be fair to compare them to the Mountain or the Mummer's - simply because while they are savage and cruel, they are not sadistic and psychotic.

And because I think that Tyrion does keep them not only for his dirty work (of course they are usefull for this) but also because of affection - he counts them as his friends.

It's the same with Bronn, being the reason why Tyrion reacts almost jealous on Bronn being knighted by his father - and why he is hurt then Bronn does go his own way later.

However, while I think he is almost completely delusious about his relationship with Bronn, the Mountain Clans do respect him and would be up to fight for him again - or for a girl telling them that she is not only the last relative to the Lord of the Vale, but also the Imp's wife.

[Fire Eater]

Sansa's isolation in the Red Keep is pretty much a reversal of the life she once knew. The warm, gentle and caring maternal figure of her mother who held duty over desire was replaced by the cold, cruel and unsympathetic Cersei who is greedy, and puts her desires first. She sees the different method of politics, realpolitik, the Lannisters use compared to the honor of the Starks. The only benefit is that she learns how to survive in an unforgiving world. Both methods the Starks and the Lannisters use end up failing; while the Starks have the problem of dealing with enemies they realize don't play by the same rules they do like the Freys and the Lannisters while the Lannisters, as Haldon Halfmaester said "make enemies easily but seem to have a harder time keeping friends." The dam the Lannisters built to block the flood of enemies is breaking, and they'll find themselves drowning.

Overall, I think Sansa will learn to find the balance, the middle ground between the two methods, that will be the best way to govern.

When will the next chapter and analysis be up?