From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

[Raksha the Demon]

Her point POV chapters in KL offer us a view on the situation there and the interactions between other characters and Sansa herself but don't show us much inner dialogue, IMO. It would be normal for any person in her situation to think about the constant danger she lived in and the tragedy her life had become, but this is not the case, not to the extent we might expect, as if she didn't grasp all the horror she was witnessing and being subjected to. She doesn't even seem fully conscious of how dangerous her situation is, as a hostage when her jailers are at war with her own brother.

This may be a sign of PTDS, as denying a reality which makes the victim hurt too much is quite common in these cases.

I am not at all sure that it would be normal for a 12-year-old girl to frequently reflect on the danger of her situation, not unless she is constantly being told that she could be killed any day, or is always locked up somewhere. While Joffrey does have Sansa hurt; he has also told her that their future marriage is still going to happen, and he has commanded his Kingsguard not to damage her face; which would imply to Sansa that Joffrey will hurt her but not kill her.

Sansa's idea of the reality a hostage faces might be informed by having grown up at Winterfell with Theon, her father's "ward" who was actually a hostage but raised alongside the young Starks, someone whose status fell between squire and foster-son to Ned. There's no hint that the Stark children felt that Theon's life would ever be in danger due to his father's actions.

Sansa is also a highborn young girl who has been gently raised and taught that her status keeps her safe from harm, at least in civilized lands and places - such as the court of the King of Westeros. While she is certainly less naive at this point in the narrative, and no stranger to beatings and disapproval and isolation, Sansa still does not expect execution while in the hands of Cersei and Joffrey. Though a prisoner, Sansa's 'jail' is pretty comfortable, ample food, beautiful dresses, a place of honor as the apparent future wife of the king.

As a young girl whose life is fairly comfortable, except for the regular beatings, Sansa probably maintains considerable hope that she is going to be rescued, or at least that her current situation is not going to be permanent. Sansa has always naturally looked at life through rose-colored glasses, and perhaps with good reason. She seems to me to be someone who would concentrate more on the half-full aspect of life's glass than the half-empty alternative. And she does have the Dontos Plan as her backup; it's a longshot but she is clinging to the hope that Dontos will actually pull it off, and hoping that it will be soon.

Sansa is also devoting a lot of mental energy to keeping up appearances; it's one of the few ways she feels she can exert some control over a hostile environment - stay pretty, dress pretty, speak pretty words (to people who either don't care whether Sansa lives or dies or who have taken part in her beatings and abuse), placate and flatter, use the Courtesy Armor, don't show fear or give away the conspiracy with Ser Dontos, continue to fall back on the "I-love-Joffrey-my-father-was-a-traitor-I-am-loyal" line. After spending every day doing that, I think she might be so mentally drained that it's easy to understand why she doesn't reflect on the possibility of future rape, humiliation and death; I personally would have opted for a warm bath and some escapist literature and tried to empty my mind and get a good night's sleep, just for my own mental health. And we know that Sansa is a great fan of escapist literature!

There are certainly indications that Sansa worries about the dangers she faces and might face; the dream of the riot, her mention to herself of the tears she has been crying unavoidably - though these are just as likely to be caused by continued grief for her father and missing the rest of her family and home.

Actually, I think if Sansa allowed herself to fully and frequently reflect on the dangers of the situation she is in, she might shut down out of sheer panic and terror, as she shut down to a certain extent for a day or two after her father died.

[MaryaStone]

Well, Theon was a hostage as well, that's true, but a different kind of hostage than Sansa, because it was usual in medieval times (ASOIF resembles this historic period very much) to exchange noble boys to be fostered at their former enemies household after a peace treaty was sealed between the parties involved in the conflict, to ensure that the peace terms would be respected. These noble hostages couldn't be mistreated because this would lead to more tension and the peace could be broken again. This was Theon's situation and it wasn't unusual.

Ned Stark was an honourable man and treated the boy accordingly, but even in Winterfell, being fostered by the Starks ,who were honourable (nothing to do with Joff in particular or most of the Lannisters in general), Theon's situation was precarious, because if Balon started an offensive agaisnt the King or against the Staks, his son would be killed. This is Theon's irony and tragedy: he was disowned by his own father and treated kindly by Ned Stark, but he was never a son at Winterfell, he was treated right but he was a hostage, and he could never forget that if the Greyjoys attacked again, he'd pay it with his life. This boy must have had identity and belonging issues due to the terms in which he was raised.

He probably had the feeling that he didn't belong anywhere, and was called a turncloak for turning against the family who had raised him ( and they did that kindly), when that wasn't his family and he had been a hostage most of his life. They treated him right but he was a hostage and his life depended on Balon Greyjoy's respecting the peace terms. It must have been really hard for Theon to decide who he owed loyalty to, and how to act. I'm not saying his actions were right, I'm just trying to explain that his situation was far from easy and chosing which part he owed loyalty to a hard decision.

Sansa's situation is less ambiguous than Theon's. She's a war hostage and not a ward as a result of a peace treaty. There is a war going on between the Lannisters and the Starks, not a truce and however precarious peace may be sometimes, it's always much better to be a ward left to be fostered in foreign land during peace, that a hostage during war.

Sansa is mistreated and humiliated on a regular basis, her physical and psychological state are constantly threatened and damaged and she has seen her father killed in front of her own eyes, she's seen his head on a pike, and she knows her septa, Jory and many other northerners have been killed. As good as the food she's given might be, and as beautiful as her cage might be, it's clear she may be taken out of it and killed any time. Her life may depend on Joff's whims as much as her father's did and we all know what happened to Ned.

Her situation is horrible, it's terrifying: she must think very well whatever she says, whatever she does. Anything she does, anything Rob does or simply one of Joff's whims may lead to her death. Jaime's situation as a hostage didn't stop Joff from having Ned executed.

[brashcandy]

The role that memory plays in Sansa's arc will definitely be interesting to explore in the next chapter and in ASOS. She seems prone to do three main things: forget, embellish, or deny. The first of these is the least troubling as no one has a perfect memory and so for instance, when she calls Joffrey's sword another name, it's an understandable error. In AGOT we saw how she can deny the objective truth to fit a reality that she actively wants to create: Joffrey as the ideal prince not capable of hurting an innocent like Mycah. She can also lie as well as evidenced when she tells Jeyne that she dreamt Joffrey had taken the white hart, when it was only really a wish that she wanted to come true, again in order to facilitate her vision of Joff the true knight and hero. There is no doubt that Sansa has suffered for this mental blindness with regard to Joffrey. She has come to see for herself what he really is, and it's the one realisation that she isn't shy of expressing to herself. I'll have more to say on this tomorrow with the chapter review, especially with how it relates to Sandor. I do have to say though, she does display a potent memory when it comes to the connection she has with the North and Winterfell. Instead of weakening her bond with the people and places of her past, her imprisonment seems to have sharpened her mind to the reality around her, and made her cling all the more to what she has known from her family and home.

[brashcandy]

Actually, I think it's Arya who misremembers the name of the sword, calling it Lion's Paw instead of Lion's Tooth.

[bgona]

This is slightly off-topic, but I have a lot of trouble keeping the Kettleblacks straight, particularly in this chapter, where they're coming and going so much. Is Osney the KG one, or is that Osmund? Or Osfryd? Osmund was the one who later ended up in Cersei's bed, right? :bang: I wish their father had been more creative with their names!

Sansa's response to the Kettleblacks is interesting to me, too. As several posters have said, Sansa points out that they're well-liked, and common gossip seems to think they're superior warriors, but Sansa shrewdly thinks that if they were that good, they'd have more of a reputation.

We know they're LF's plants. Whichever Kettleblack helped escort Sansa to her wedding later on was kind to her. How much do you think LF told them of his plans? Do you think they were told to help protect Sansa? Or to make sure Joff didn't kill her but that her experience in KL was miserable enough to make her glad of LF's future protection?

I don´t believe that they are to protect Sansa, they aren´t so brave to risk the power they have in that moment. I see them more as informers of LF. And maybe as an ultimate weapon (as a knife at the back or things in that way).

[bgona]

Ra

I am not at all sure that it would be normal for a 12-year-old girl to frequently reflect on the danger of her situation, not unless she is constantly being told that she could be killed any day, or is always locked up somewhere. While Joffrey does have Sansa hurt; he has also told her that their future marriage is still going to happen, and he has commanded his Kingsguard not to damage her face; which would imply to Sansa that Joffrey will hurt her but not kill her.

Until he gets bore of her and decide to kill her. And I pretty sure that she knows at that moment that it could happen anytime.

------------

About the dismemory of Sansa. I don´t see yet that dismemory. The Micah death, she didn´t want to be positioned (that was more a diplomatic movement, as in the TV Show Ned explained to Arya). Sansa didn´t wanted to betray her fiance (Joffrey) cause she will have to still marry him.

The nodream it was just a lie, proving that she is able to lie, but these ones are silly lies.

About Joffrey first sword in my Spanish version I couldn´t find that she changed the name. It is used the same name in her POV as futher that I got.

What I see it is more as already have been said: that she keeps her feelings really inside, until she will be able to deal with them (IMO).

[bgona]

I can´t go to sleep until I say that I love all you have exposed as Sansa related to Jane Austen (sorry I haven´t read nothing of Rattcliffe).

I had similar thought days ago when people keep saying that Sansa POV are boring. That it is also what many readers say about Jane Austen books is that are boring cause it doesn´t happen nothing.

I see more: that GRRM has been able to create a POV thru Jane Austen novels.

[adreamer]

I think Sansa is suppressing her feelings. She adopted the behavior of looking, but not seeing not just for the moment when Jofrey was showing her fathers head, but actually from that moment on. It is something similar to Dany's - if i look back I'm lost (or something lke that). The bad think about that behavior is sooner or later you have to express your feelings, you can't hold them forever.

[Yvonesan]

I agree that Sansa is suppressing her feelings ...which makes me worry for her somewhat because it's as if there's more going on than we know yet ...what if there's something she hasn't revealed to us because it's so awful that she can't handle it herself and as a consequence, she misremembers things as a way of coping with whatever it is that's so troubling? Sometimes feel like we don't get the whole story with Sansa.

[adreamer]

Well. we've aalready seen her expresing her feelings after something awful happend to her, the mob scene. And she seemed quite stressed afterward and we know she was crying and all that, so I believe if anything that awful is there we'll know about it - flashbacks or other way. And I think you can suppress your feelings but to some limit.

[MaryaStone]

I agree that Sansa is suppressing her feelings ...which makes me worry for her somewhat because it's as if there's more going on than we know yet ...what if there's something she hasn't revealed to us because it's so awful that she can't handle it herself and as a consequence, she misremembers things as a way of coping with whatever it is that's so troubling? Sometimes feel like we don't get the whole story with Sansa.

:agree:

I couldn't agree more. This is something I've often thought about Sansa. She seems to keep everything inside and I always tend to think more horrible things might have happened to her and we don't get to know about them when we read her POV chapters. There seem to be voids, specially in scenes we'll comment in the future and, while I was reading them, this made me wonder what had really happened.

[bgona]

I don´t believe that something further happen unless it is not narrated in the moment. After a while it is when she could change her memories.

[voodooqueen126]

I can´t go to sleep until I say that I love all you have exposed as Sansa related to Jane Austen (sorry I haven´t read nothing of Rattcliffe).

I had similar thought days ago when people keep saying that Sansa POV are boring. That it is also what many readers say about Jane Austen books is that are boring cause it doesn´t happen nothing.

I see more: that GRRM has been able to create a POV thru Jane Austen novels.

Well Radcliffe's heroines went out of fashion because Jane Austen satirized them so much in Northanger Abbey.

[MaryaStone]

I don´t believe that something further happen unless it is not narrated in the moment. After a while it is when she could change her memories.

Yes, you're probably right, but when I read the BBB scene, for example, it was so strange and with so many ambiguous undertones that it made me wonder if I had understood well or if there had been something else going on.

After reading all the books and other characters' POVs, I tend to agree with you. What we got to know first hand was what really happened and she started fantasizing and making up things later, when she was recalling what had happened originally.

[Yvonesan]

That could be Marya and Bgona, but what if the thing we were told firsthand is not the full story or even not what happened at all? If Sansa never let us know. As someone pointed out to me the other day, there are some things mentioned in the books that are only hinted at or not explained fully at first ...we only discover the truth as time goes on (e.g. Lysa and LF's part in Jon Arryn's death and Lysa's letter to Catelyn about it for one thing). What if there is something bad that happened to Sansa already that we've yet to find out? I'm going to keep this in mind as I continue a re-read of her chapters to see if I can pick up on any little hints of what might have been going on with her, especially when she remembers things like a kiss when it never happened. If a kiss was just wishful thinking, well I couldn't blame her ;) and maybe it is just that ...but it's strange that she never considers anything but that it did happen. I know if i was imagining something from my past thinking it occurred, at some point I'd be asking myself if it was just in my (sometimes overactive) imagination and not actually real! Does this make sense ...or not?!

[bgona]

Well Radcliffe's heroines went out of fashion because Jane Austen satirized them so much in Northanger Abbey.

Just Northanger Abbey is the only book of Jane Austen that I haven´t read. It will be one of the next of my list.

And someone of Radcliffe just to be able to compare.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Makes perfect sense to me. Children are highly suggestible (and no matter what learning she has been forced to do so far, Sansa is most definitely still a child in terms of brain development). That is why they are conaidered unreliable as witnesses to most events. If they tell you that a brown horse just went galloping by, and you insisted to them enough that it was actually a white horse, in most cases their mind's eye will change the horse to white and they will then adamantly swear that it was a white horse, they know because they SAW it.

I think there is definitely some wiggle room between what is actually happening in some cases, and what Sansa is seeing/remembering/relating. We are not there yet, but one huge example to me is the ease with which LF gets Sansa to not only go along with, but quite convincingly relate (repeatedly and under duress), the manner of Lysa's death. If Sansa had been a few years older, I bet LF would have found himself having a much harder time getting Sansa to go along with his story, much less tell it convincingly to a group of people. who are looking for signs of deceit. But by the time people arrive to question what happened, I would bet that sansa would have a hard time accurately recalling exactly what really did happen, factually and in the proper order. She is old enough to not be so suggestible that she has completely forgotten the truth, but I bet her memory is a little hazy even so (also due to the simply horrific nature of the whole episode - who would WANT to remember that?).

When her mental, emotional and physical survival require so much deception, it is really inevitable that some of it spill over into self-deception. The only questions, which are going to be awfully hard to answer, are specifically what is she remembering clearly and what has she gone a bit fuzzy on. I personally believe that the Sandor kiss is a false memory, because Sandor does not use it to taunt Arya (he does taunt her with the fact that Sansa sang him a song, but never brings up a kiss, which - being the irritating bugger he is - I am sure he would have taken great delight in disgusting Arya with, if it had actually happened. So if Sansa is misremembering that, there is literally no telling what else we have "seen" from her POV that must be viewed through the lenses of a frightened and desperate young girl.

This is one of the things that frightens me about her growing relationship with LF. Because WE know he is slime, we desperately want to believe that Sansa sees it too; that something in her intuition is telling her there is something off about this guy. Unfortunately, I think what we are seeing in Sansa's POVs is a growing trust in LF as her savior, protector and surrogate father. That is what the frightened child needs to believe to have any shred of peace of mind, so what she is seeing in him is a protector, not a user or manipulator or even a murderer - even when she KNOWS that he is all of these things.

Sorry, did not mean to get so far ahead of where we are, it just seemed pertinent to the discussion of whether and to what extent Sansa is able to talk herself into seeing things as she wants/needs them to be, rather than what they are.

[Caro99]

i had never thought of the posibility that things happened to sansa without her letting us know about it, but it is a very possible option that can happen (or has already happened). i hope not cause unless it helps with the general plot line (like LF and Lysa being involved in killing john arryn) then i don't want to imagine sansa suffered even more horrible things while in KL or with LF in the eyrie later on. i can't quite grasp why she doesn't even allow herself the posibiltiy that the unkiss may just be a product of her imagination as Yvonesan pointed out, but i had so far always asumed that sansa's mind obeyed her when she wanted to believe something or change some incident, but there may be deeper meanings hidden here, so not sure what to think now...

[Caro99]

I think there is definitely some wiggle room between what is actually happening in some cases, and what Sansa is seeing/remembering/relating. We are not there yet, but one huge example to me is the ease with which LF gets Sansa to not only go along with, but quite convincingly relate (repeatedly and under duress), the manner of Lysa's death. If Sansa had been a few years older, I bet LF would have found himself having a much harder time getting Sansa to go along with his story, much less tell it convincingly to a group of people. who are looking for signs of deceit. But by the time people arrive to question what happened, I would bet that sansa would have a hard time accurately recalling exactly what really did happen, factually and in the proper order. She is old enough to not be so suggestible that she has completely forgotten the truth, but I bet her memory is a little hazy even so (also due to the simply horrific nature of the whole episode - who would WANT to remember that?).

i get your point here and agree since i've just finished reading AFFC and after paying a lot of attention to every single detail in alayne's chapters i remember that it says something along the lines of, "She sometimes wondered if she hadn't dreamed lady arryn's fall," so since it is very unpleasant for her to recall this, she is chosing to turn it into either a dream of LF's version of events.

*sorry for getting ahead of the re-read

[childofsummer]

Just Northanger Abbey is the only book of Jane Austen that I haven´t read. It will be one of the next of my list.

And someone of Radcliffe just to be able to compare.

Northanger Abbey is one of my favorites! It's absolutely hysterical. :) Voodooqueen, thanks for bringing up the parallel. Sansa does act incredibly like Catherine in being able to talk herself into believing the strangest things. However, Sansa almost inevitably convinces herself that things are better than they are, while Catherine is sure they are worse. Thus, I think their motivations for self-deception are quite different. For Sansa, it's about being able to survive and function without losing her mind. For Catherine, it's about a fundamental inability t o distinguish between fiction and literature until she is directly confronted with what she has been doing. Catherine creates her own Gothic tale of terror, while Sansa, trapped with monsters in the middle of a battle and threatened with death, humiliation, and torture, tries to escape hers.