From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

[bgona]

Hi! I´m back! I´m so sorry that I have miss some chapters, but I have very bussy. Anyway I will try to read your analysis of that chapters, sure that they are very instructives (as always and also in this chapter).

Somethings:

a).- The cousins Tyrell seems to me as a spiderweb that tried to trap Sansa. They tried to involve her, knowing how alone she must feel.

B).- Brashcandy I also got caught by the animals that Sansa and Margaery choose in their falconry. And I found so much information about the connection between medieval falconry and sexual desire. Really amazing! They are many author (not only Shakespeare, but in addition Chrétien de Troyes and Boncampagno da Signa). Also is a symbol of lust.

Also I found that hawks are guide animals as the wolf since ancient cultures.

But I realize that each one got a different bird of prey. Sansa animal is a Merlin a sedentary animal, who take care of their litter, that isn´t truely a hawk, it is bigger, related to eagles. Willas hunt with an eagle (as desire of being King? maybe?). Instead the Margaery´s hawk is a migratory hawk.

c).- Margaery keeping the idea of Loras protecting her shows that she doesn´t know nothing about the complot of killing Joff. That it is something of TQoT.

d).- Sansa doesn´t really trust yet her owns reasonings.

e).- Ser Dontos had give her already the hairnet so the killing had been decided before Tyrell´s decide about Willas marrying her.

f).- You guys got something about Sansa telling Ser Dontos about her marriage. She is the one that betrayed herself. Ser Dontos tells LF that she doesn´t want to leave, so he has to thwart the marriage so Sansa is again willing to leave KL.

g).- Ser Dontos said two truths: the Tyrell are Lannister with flowers and that they only want her for her realm.

h).- I love how Sansa brings puppies when she is dreaming with the perfect marriage. Her mind betrayes her. In addition, she wants children with her brothers and sisters that looks more of the North as The Hound.

i).- Sansa is desesperated to receive love.

j).- COS maybe is the opposite_> Sansa´s acceptance of Willas´age will lead to the acceptance of The Hound´s age.

[bgona]

Tywin tied Winterfell by the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion, instead he can play with the false Arya and the Boltons. So when he wants take control of Winterfell and the Boltons fight against him, he will have the truth inheritor of Winterfell.

This shows also that he already has plot the RW.

[Grail King]

I'm thinking Sansa may also be quite content to stay Alayne and live a nice quiet life OUTSIDE of the game.

Depending on how things go with the Lannisters and wars....Jaime is the KG commander now, after all, and may have the power to free Sandor of his empty KG duty plus clear his name of the Saltpans (Brienne knows it wasn't him)

Sandor may get Gregor's land and would have something to offer Sansa. I could see him becoming a kennelmaster and raising little furry hounds :)

He can take Ramsey's dogs :)

Willas....he may be all they say he is but as we are never introduced to him he may never come into play

I would not like that, give up your name, your family, stay hidden; no that's opposite of the internal view we see of her inner strength it's admitting that the Lannisters and Little Finger could and did take everything from her, I would be sadden if she lives anonymously especially when her family may really need her in the future.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

well at the moment they DID take everything from her :( Arya is a FM and essentially lost. Robb, Cat, Ned are dead. Jon may be dead. Bran and Rickon are presumed dead. The Boltons currently hold Winterfell.

For now, for today, they DID take all from her.

That isn't to say later on some of it couldn't be reclaimed and she couldn't come forward to her family. We can only go by the current circumstances :(

Damn you GRRM for making us wait!!!! auuuurrrrgggghhhhhhhh

[bgona]

That are "the hidden paths". Almost all the characters go thru a "hidden path": Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, The Hound, Bran, Rickon, Theon, ...

Edit: But after they have to get back to their own and true being.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I have unwavering faith that Sansa will try to reclaim Winterfell in the name of her family, for winterfell. It took Danaerys one book to decide she should seize the iron thrown. Sansa may change her mind in WOW and avenge her family. I will continue to believe that Sansa will be Queen in The North until proven otherwise in the novels

[Wouter]

a).- The cousins Tyrell seems to me as a spiderweb that tried to trap Sansa. They tried to involve her, knowing how alone she must feel.

I think they're quite genuine - at most they are guilty of only getting involved with Sansa because Margaery does and she is the leader (and the one they need to please, to some extent).

c).- Margaery keeping the idea of Loras protecting her shows that she doesn´t know nothing about the complot of killing Joff. That it is something of TQoT.

No, Margaery isn't worried about Loras and Joffrey because she already knows Joffrey is to be "taken care off" and he won't get a chance to touch her (and set Loras on the kingslaying path). Margaery cannot tell Sansa that though, so she lies about Loras to explain why she is not worried. Sansa impression that she couldn't believe Margaey and QoT couldn't see that, is correct.

e).- Ser Dontos had give her already the hairnet so the killing had been decided before Tyrell´s decide about Willas marrying her.

Not by the Tyrells - they first wanted confirmation. Litttlefinger had already made sure of his preparations, though (no doubt he was sure Sansa would confirm the truth or the Tyrells would get confirmation through other means - it was the truth, after all, and Joffrey wasn't subtle about humiliating and hurting Sansa).

[bgona]

Wouter I still keeping that impression of a spiderweb. No telling if it is made with plain consciousness or if they are being nice. But it is really a girlish way of making Sansa trust the Tyrell so she can give the information that they want to receive.

About Margaery not fearing it is truth! She lies Sansa.

I was not saying that the hairnet was give to Ser Dontos by the Tyrell (not at all). I just say that the hairnet is the one that carrys the Assai amatyst (so the poison). If it is already in Sansa power it means that the killing plot was set maybe previously to the idea of marry Sansa to Willas.

Anyway so I miss some of the chapters maybe this is already say it before and in a better way.

[Grail King]

I have unwavering faith that Sansa will try to reclaim Winterfell in the name of her family, for winterfell. It took Danaerys one book to decide she should seize the iron thrown. Sansa may change her mind in WOW and avenge her family. I will continue to believe that Sansa will be Queen in The North until proven otherwise in the novels

:agree: :agree:

[bgona]

Wouter I just realize know what you say! The killing plot was LF decided before, not by the Tyrell yet. Only after speaking with Sansa they decide to kill Joffrey.

Is this?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I realize this is skipping ahead a bit, but since the subject has been raised of Sansa remaining Alaynee (or disappearing with a different alias), I think we already know that her alias as Alayne is due to be exposed in quite short order; and probably before LF is ready for it to happen. When Sansa gets down the mountain and is reunited with LF, in the scene where he ultimately tells her of the arranged betrothal to Harry, Sansahas already been spotted by one bounty hunter, who would have to be an utter moron not to realize who she is (and he is obviously not stupid, since of all the people searching for Sansa, he has found her first).

Ser Shadrich/the Mad Mouse is one of the three hedge knights LF introduces Sansa to at the Gates of the Moon. He would have to be an utter fool not to have recognized her for who she is. He obviously deduced that the most likely place for Sansa to hole up is in the Vale with the only family she has left, and LF's story about a long lost natural daughter is so thin Hodor could see through it. Shadrich has been smart enough to hook up with two other hedge knights to provide a believable cover story for their appearance in the Vale, but he desperately needs the money reward for Sansa to cover the ransom he was forced to pay for himself after fighting on the losing side of the BWB.

It is an open question whether LF is already prepared to make his move in revealing Alayne as Sansa. I sincerely hope so, because otherwise he is playing a likely-to-be-fatal game with both his own life and Sansa's, by bringing her out of solitude and around so many people likely to put 2+2 together and realize exactly who she is. Shadrich probably already has his message to KL written and is just awaiting the chance to send it. Randa Royce is nobody's fool and she will realize very quickly that Sansa is obviously a wellborn and lady-reared young woman, not even close to the rougher, more experienced and worldly persona one would expect from a natural daughter raised more or less in exile. It remains to be seen which side Randa will come down on; as Sansa's friend and co-conspirator, or as a jealous young widow who will not appreciate being eclipsed and ignored due to Sansa's beauty and magnetism to men.

Again sorry for getting so far ahead of where we are, but it does have to make one wonder exactly how far back LF began his plotting and how many unavoidable eventualities he has foreseen and planned for; or if he is going to wind up having to plot on the fly to avoid disasters from numerous "pawns" who have refused to cooperate with his grand schemes.

[Wouter]

Wouter I just realize know what you say! The killing plot was LF decided before, not by the Tyrell yet. Only after speaking with Sansa they decide to kill Joffrey.

Is this?

Yes.

I mean, the Tyrells were surely planning the murder but could still have aborted if Sansa painted a very different picture. LF had reasons enough to assume that would not happen though.

[Yvonesan]

Again sorry for getting so far ahead of where we are, but it does have to make one wonder exactly how far back LF began his plotting and how many unavoidable eventualities he has foreseen and planned for; or if he is going to wind up having to plot on the fly to avoid disasters from numerous "pawns" who have refused to cooperate with his grand schemes.

Perhaps LF's lies are about to catch up with him, as they inevitably will I think. I'm not as far ahead in reading as you but I'm delighted to learn that Sansa may be on the brink of her false identity being found out, it does sound like it. I've recently met Shadrich and co and so far, I don't know what the point of his existence is in the story but a part in finding Sansa may well be his role. Of course, this probably doesn't bode well for Sansa at all, except that she can be her true self again. Please GRRM, don't be too cruel to her if you're about to bring her back to KL!

And Wouter, apart from the concern about Sansa's welfare if she can be herself once more, I do hope that she can ditch the false persona and thrive as Sansa Stark again.

[ElizaMartell]

Sansa wouldn't be able to get back to KL through the Vale (apart from ship) because its been snowed off from everywhere else.

[brashcandy]

With regards to how Cersei and Tywin found out about the Willas marriage plot, it's still unclear. It could have been due to Sansa telling Dontos, or the Tyrells might have confided in Littlefinger. The reason we can't say definitively is because of how the chapter is written. Except for the opening and closing, the chapter is told in retrospect, with Sansa filling us in what has been happening in her life since that fateful meeting. She's told Dontos at some point during these weeks since the plot was made, so it's possible that he could have been the one to pass on the info to LF. However, as noted, it could have also been the Tyrells confiding in LF. My belief is that the plan for Willas/Sansa might have been hatched by LF himself, ensuring that the Tyrells believed him to be an honest friend, and then double crossing them with the Lannisters, leading to more enmity and contempt between the Houses when the Lannisters snatched Sansa away.

[Maroucia]

With regards to how Cersei and Tywin found out about the Willas marriage plot, it's still unclear. It could have been due to Sansa telling Dontos, or the Tyrells might have confided in Littlefinger. The reason we can't say definitively is because of how the chapter is written. Except for the opening and closing, the chapter is told in retrospective, with Sansa filling us in what has been happening in her life since that fateful meeting. She's told Dontos at some point during these weeks since the plot was made, so it's possible that he could have been the one to pass on the info to LF. However, as noted, it could have also been the Tyrells confiding in LF. My belief is that the plan for Willas/Sansa might have been hatched by LF himself, ensuring that the Tyrells believed him to be an honest friend, and then double crossing them with the Lannisters, leading to more enmity and contempt between the Houses when the Lannisters snatched Sansa away.

Well that would certainly be well planed, especially since Littlefinger says himself that he works at his best in chaos. It would also show how twisted he can be, using every piece of the game he can.

Even though it’s only speculation, I like that idea!

[brashcandy]

Well that would certainly be well planed, especially since Littlefinger says himself that he works at his best in chaos. It would also show how twisted he can be, using every piece of the game he can.

Even though it’s only speculation, I like that idea!

Yeah :) It's an intriguing possibility. I mean, who better to fill in the Tyrells about what a gentle, trusting soul Sansa is, the ideal bride for their crippled Willas who doesn't need some pushy or experienced bride. And besides ensuring bad blood between the Tyrells and the Lannisters, Littlefinger could be doubly sure that Sansa would come to him thoroughly disenchanted with both Houses and grateful for his intervention.

[Elba the Intoner]

Hi all. I have hardly had any time to follow this thread the last few days and I can't believe how much I've missed! I don't have much time even now to respond (though things are finally going to slow down for me this week - phew) so I just wanted to quickly add a couple of things.

Regarding sympathy for Tyrion - I have to say I still found him sympathetic at this point. I agree with what Thrice the Hound said in post #333 and Morte said in #339. He fought bravely in the BBW, nearly lost his life for it, and his strategy with the chain was smart. I know I'd be bitter if I found out after waking up from a grave injury that no one would give me credit for anything I had done to help in the battle victory. And Tywin just treats him so cruelly that I just can't help feeling sorry for him here. And also I can't really blame him for marrying Sansa. Maybe this will change when we get to the reread of that chapter, but my first impression is that this is an accepted part of Westerosi culture and even Sansa knows that.

Child of Summer, you post from yesterday (#361) regarding all the components of a wedding being present in Sansa's mind was BRILLIANT!

[Elba the Intoner]

Brash your thoughts on LF regarding that he was behind the idea of Sansa marrying Willas - very intriguing! You really have this very well thought out. This had not even crossed my mind but it seems to be so fitting with what we do know. I wonder if we'll ever learn if this is true but sadly I highly doubt it.

[Maroucia]

Yeah :) It's an intriguing possibility. I mean, who better to fill in the Tyrells about what a gentle, trusting soul Sansa is, the ideal bride for their crippled Willas who doesn't need some pushy or experienced bride. And besides ensuring bad blood between the Tyrells and the Lannisters, Littlefinger could be doubly sure that Sansa would come to him thoroughly disenchanted with both Houses and grateful for his intervention.

Ha! And I could definitively see him trying to convince the Tyrells that this match would be perfect, using his infamous argument about how the best marriages are the ones between young women and older men…ugh!