From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

[Grail King]

I don't know if I subscribe to the warging or San/Dan BFF theories, but I have seen it kicked around repeatedly that the tapestries LF requested are dragon motifs from the time of the Targs' rule.

We have LF's mention to Sansa about the "War of the Three Queens." < SNIP for space>

Ok I remember that thread now, the actual living Queens with Danny, Cersei,Selyse, Margery and possible Jeyne Stark.

I didn't get to that part yet on my reread, so I'll read it closer when I get there.

[1234567]

Are you guys ready for the next chapter then, to get out of dangerous territory?

Next chapter will be up tomorrow evening!

[1234567]

ACOK – Sansa VII Summary

OK, so this chapter focuses a lot on Sansa’s maturity and compassion for others. IMO, these attributes are divided between the political and the personal. We get insight into what would make Sansa a better, more admirable leader than Cersei could ever be, and we also see how this strength and consideration affect her personal, private relationships, transforming a moment of crisis, to one of deeply felt connection. What’s remarkable about Sansa’s courage and dignity in these two central scenes is that her life was in credible peril during both of them.

Bit late in commenting on the thread….bought Skyrim at the weekend. :bowdown:

I think this chapter coupled with the last really build a sense of how far Sansa’s character has developed. In AGOT she cried over a stained dress and was petulant with Arya about it but now she is in danger of losing her life and yet she remains calm and supportive of others, even those who have directly been involved in her humiliation and indirectly in her beating such as Lancel and Cersei. Her composure and compassion are astounding as is her ability to take charge of the other panicked people in the hall, especially given how terrified she is. Cersei running from the room while Sansa walks, really highlights the difference between the two of them. Sansa possesses the characteristics that Cersei emulates when it suits her.

Btw, could this strong ability to sense danger be a facet of Sansa’s “warghood”?

GRRM has said all the Stark children are Wargs, but Sansa’s ability due to the lose of Lady and her naturally compassionate and empathetic nature may mean that she reads people better as she senses how they feel. In other words Sansa Stark is the Deanna Troi of Westeros. :lol:

This chapter struck me as presenting an extremely strong case for Sansa as the younger, more beautiful queen in Cersei’s prophecy.

Indeed. Sansa’s ability to keep her dignity and composure in almost unbearable situations at the age of 12 is remarkable.

n the way she tends to Ser Lancel, someone that is fighting against her family, and who previously showed no mercy to her when Joff had her beaten and stripped in the court.

A pet hope of mine is that we get a Lancel prologue in TWOW. I would hope given his new religious nature, that we will get to see his thoughts on Sansa and his behaviour towards her as we did in the Arys Oakheart Chapter.

Just where has Sansa learnt this skill before? And just how is she is able to prevent her own personal fears from taking over? Reading this chapter, she reminded me a lot of her half-brother, Jon, and how he confronts his challenges at the Wall (seems fitting then that she has to pretend to be a bastard later on).

She is very much a mixture of Cat and Ned and displays both the good and bad qualities of each. Her parents were loved and well respected and she must have learnt a lot from them. It would be interesting to see how her and Jon would react to each other if they meet again.

Her fear concerning what will happen when the night is over causes her to think of Lady again, and at the exact moment she whispers the dog’s name, Sandor’s hand reaches out as though he is answering the call. Later, when she glimpses his face in a flash of light, she notes his eyes, which were glowing like a dog’s. However, if Sandor is a replacement for her wolf, he’s capable of scaring her just as much as he would others.

I think this scene could have some foreshadowing and indeed there have been several occasions when Sansa thinks of Lady or indeed her father (in AGOT) in a protective way, only Sandor to appear.

In the last chapter she prayed for his rage to be gentled. The same song seems to have that effect here.

Was he there to rape her? Would he have raped and killed her had she not remembered the song? Personally, I don’t think he was there to rape her, and I don’t believe he would have, but I do think he posed a genuine risk to her life that night.

I agree that her life was more in danger than anything else, but the whole scene got a rapey vibe the moment he pushed her on the bed.

Then we have her wrapping herself in his cloak after she rises from bed. It’s another strange act that seems to belie the earlier terror she felt from him. It’s also an action that GRRM has obviously deliberately included here for a reason. So what is he trying to suggest? It adds to the earlier symbolism of him giving her his cloak to cover herself after she is beaten, except now she is actively choosing to pick his cloak up and use it for warmth and comfort. We later learn that she has kept it as well in her cedar chest beneath her summer silks. The cloak represents marriage and protection in Martin’s world, so is it performing the same signification here? Also, it’s a bloody (white) cloak, which has connotations of a young girl’s bloody marital bedding, taken as proof of her virginity on her wedding night.

Again this could be a foreshadowing of the Younger Queen. She is often given cloaks in the series. Sorry this is jumping forward a little, but she actively resists (as much as she is able to), Tyrion putting the cloak around her and similarly she is not exactly in a happy place when LF wraps his cloak around her. However she uses Selmy’s dis-guarded cloak to kneel on in the courtroom to protect her dress (symbolising perhaps the role of the Kingsguard in protecting her) and then again twice wraps herself willingly and actively in Sandor’s cloak. The fact that in this scene she rejects her featherbed and soft blankets for the yet again dis-guarded rough woollen cloak covered in blood and smoke on the floor is also symbolic. That Sandor took Selmy’s place and both men were the most honourable members of the KG again suggests that she is the one who is protected by the closest things to honourable men in the KG. The smoke and fire may also signify her future marriage to a Targ or Blackfyre depending on what Aegon turns out to be.

[brashcandy]

Rapsie, you said smoke and fire and I immediately began thinking of Azor Ahai - we have salt tears folks! :) sorry, don't know what has gotten into me and these crackpots :blushing:

[Yvonesan]

I am also sorry if i have posted some things that were bad according to the guys who shut down things. i just don't know what we aren't suppose to mention. i think we can't talk about future speculations about characters and their plot lines, or only romantic sort of speculations?

I still feel unclear about this too. We can speculate on the rest of the story but not speculate on any potential romances for Sansa or with Sandor in particular? Or, is it correct to assume that we can discuss it if a character is mentioned in Sansa's chapters but depending on what's suggested or mentioned?

As Raksha the Demon said, it is difficult to refrain from discussing Sansa and Sandor given what's written about them, just as it's difficult to refrain from discussing Sansa's major interactions with any other characters but I'm sure we're all aware that anything we speculate on is just speculation... we could all be way off the mark with our analyses by the time this story is done maybe even more easily than someone may come close to being right about something that will happen for a particular character, but is speculation the issue or is it something else? I'm not trying to be awkward about this, I'm just not sure where the exact line is that we can't cross and I'd prefer to be clear on the subject.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

well I am sure we will eventually get to her interactions with Tyrion

[childofsummer]

Her keeping that cloak...did Sandor sew his name on it or something? I think you SanSans get a bit ahead of yourselves sometimes. If anyone did find the gag-worthy cloak, that person would probably not assume A) that it was Sandor's, or B) if the puzzle of ownership was resolved, that her keeping it meant anything to her except that she didn't know what to do with a cloak that indicated grown men had been in her room or someone who helped her might need a KG cloak at some point. No one would assume a girl like her had feeling for the Hound (it's hard enough for me to get on board, and I know her inner thoughts).

Why does she hide the cloak?

1. She's fallen for a man who terrorized her (but no one even knows Sandor visited her).

2. People would think she is having an inappropriate relationship with a KG (we know she isn't adept at burning things she wants to get rid of).

3. Maybe Ser Dontos could use it to help her escape somehow.

4. There's more to the story we aren't getting and the cloak is testament to whatever it was.

Discarding the notion of a name lovingly inscribed in pink glitter on the cloak (which, Christina, was a fabulous image :) ), I don't think it would be that great a leap to conclude that it was Sandor's, and thus, to connect Sansa to him. It wasn't just a white cloak, it was an extra-long white KG cloak that was torn and stained with blood, vomit, and wildfire smoke. It had obviously been in the thick of the BBB. Sandor had been in the BBB wearing his KG cloak, and he had left. Joff and probably others would have remembered that he had never had Sandor beat Sansa, for whatever reason, unlike Ser Mandon, who also disappeared in the battle. I think if Varys had found the cloak among Sansa's things, he wouldn't have had to stretch too far to deduce that it belonged to Sandor, and he had given it to Sansa or left it with her the night of the battle, just before he left KL.

[Summerqueen]

Why would anyone trouble Varys? Why would he trouble himself? He probably knows where Sansa is already, and he may even know where Sandor is.

Serving women would take the cloak to Cersei. Who knows what irrational conclusion she would draw? I don't think she would guess that Sansa met with Sandor and...nothing happened. She'd definitely imagine the cloak was a testament to Sansa's deflowering or something. I highly doubt she'd imagine an attachment between the two, though she may conclude Sandor may have conspired with Sansa to escape. She might accuse Sandor and put a price on his head, at that. We know how little evidence means to her.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

If Cersei finds the cloak she will definitely be convinced of some conspiracy against her...because, after all, everything is a conspiracy against her.

the world revolves around her. She would somehow find a way to involve Tyrion into it as well.

She'll think he was Tyrion's spy and came back to kill Joff or help them escape.

I seriously doubt she would think it truly was.....just what it was

[Solaris]

I still feel unclear about this too. We can speculate on the rest of the story but not speculate on any potential romances for Sansa or with Sandor in particular? Or, is it correct to assume that we can discuss it if a character is mentioned in Sansa's chapters but depending on what's suggested or mentioned?

As Raksha the Demon said, it is difficult to refrain from discussing Sansa and Sandor given what's written about them, just as it's difficult to refrain from discussing Sansa's major interactions with any other characters but I'm sure we're all aware that anything we speculate on is just speculation... we could all be way off the mark with our analyses by the time this story is done maybe even more easily than someone may come close to being right about something that will happen for a particular character, but is speculation the issue or is it something else? I'm not trying to be awkward about this, I'm just not sure where the exact line is that we can't cross and I'd prefer to be clear on the subject.

I just wanted to note: I have just been made aware of the mod banning of discussions regarding San/San specific threads. I am not sure if it applies to this one since we are doing a character arc reread, and it would be almost impossible to do without discussing the things that transpire between them in their scenes together; or if it is just discussion that speculatively puts them together in more intimate ways that are inappropriate. In any case, I apologize if my previous post violated board rules, I was not aware that the topic of San/San had become a touchy one or that there were bans in place on certain types of discussion.

To Rapsie and Brashcandy, do we need perhaps to get the mods' approval to continue discussing this scene in context, or consider ending it and moving forward to the next chapter to avoid the thread being shut down? I would hate to think that something I posted contributed to the locking of our discussion.

I'd like to go on record as saying it is very difficult to avoid speculation on San/San shipping; because GRRM has set up a bond between the two characters, and in my opinion, tends to do more with it (if only to have them meet and talk again); and if we're rereading Sansa, it's darned hard to just not mention that she does have feelings for the man. I am not in any way advocating that 12-13-year-old girls take up with 25-year-old emotionally stunted/mixed up men. Sansa is way still too young, in AFFC, for any kind of sexual relationship with anyone. But Sansa is at an age, beginning around the time we are now in ACOK and continuing, where a girl starts to think about sexual matters and romantic dreams and sexual fantasies can start to be intertwined.

The mods are concerned with exploring tangents that are not textually supported, Xray said keep away from Fan Fic. Suppositions derived from pure speculation leads the thread into the realm of fan fiction rather than straight forward analysis/interpretation of the text. For example. The BWB scene inevitable winds up with opinions divided on what Sandor did and did not intend, we cannot strictly support or deny his intentions with the lack of his own POV or textual evidence in alternative POV's. It is then unreasonable to argue that he is a rapist for example which inevitably always occurs when a-someone-comes-a-trolling. The thread then degenerates as more ponderings based on user feeling/opinion rather than evidence then can result in heated arguments that are irrelevant to the thread/arc regardless of how interesting the coversation is. I am guessing that is what the mods are attempting to avoid.

I do not think the mods are attempting to stife muses or ban talk of San/San as it leads me to wonder why we haven't seen the shut down of numerous other threads to do with uncomfortable issues, what would have happened way back when LF took Jeyne Poole who is underage and people began to speculate what was going to happen to her considering we all know what LF does for a living? I cannot see that the mods would have a problem with uncomfortable specualtion as the majority of the subject matter is uncomfortable. Doing so would be counterproductive making the exercise of this forum a waste of time hence why I assume the issue appears to be with speculation based on no textual evidence to justify the discussion rather than issue with the characters themselves. I think if we were not allowed to discuss the possibility of San/San we would have been told outright to never mention it, that is not what happened.

Just my 2c :)

[Solaris]

Thank you.

[mod] In this case, IF this discussion only focuses on the two sisters, I think we can let it stay. Discussions of the Sandor-Sansa relationship itself, though, are currently off-limits. [/mod]

That said, I will be kicking this to the mod team for discussion. In the end, we may decide to end the conversation anyway.

I stand corrected as at a moment ago by X-ray (in another thread). San/San is a banned subject currently.

[Raksha the Demon]

The ban is, in my opinion, ridiculous. I will abide by it, under protest.

[brashcandy]

I thought we had resolved this topic. As this was a re-read thread which was started before the mod warning, I think we can have some leeway in discussing Sandor as he relates to Sansa's development. I have asked all thread posters to please respect the sensitivity of the issue, and to simply stick to discussing the chapter without loose speculation, interpretation or anything that can be misconstrued as fanfiction or shipping. I really can't explain it any better than this. It does not have to derail the thread, since we were always Sansa specific and we are moving away from the Sandor intensive book. Yes, he appears in her thoughts again, and yes, there will be room to discuss the significance of this, but if everyone is mindful of what we're operating under, then I see no need for any problems to arise.

If anyone else has any comments or questions on this please PM either me or Rapsie personally.

[Solaris]

Well at least you are now past the point of their interactions on the re-read. I agree with you all that it will be difficult to explore the nature of Sansa's development especially where it involves supplanted memories. This puts the brakes on exploring some parallels and shadowing in later chapters.

Where there is a will there is a way and there is always private messaging if you have ideas that would cause the thread to be locked I suppose.

EDIT - And what Brash just said.

[brashcandy]

Well at least you are now past the point of their interactions on the re-read. I agree with you all that it will be difficult to explore the nature of Sansa's development especially where it involves supplanted memories. This puts the brakes on exploring some parallels and shadowing in later chapters.

Where there is a will there is a way and there is always private messaging if you have ideas that would cause the thread to be locked I suppose.

No, it doesn't have to put the brakes on that. Focused analysis about the unkiss will be relevant in ASOS, but let's just be mindful to keep it focused.

[Solaris]

No, it doesn't have to put the brakes on that. Focused analysis about the unkiss will be relevant in ASOS, but let's just be mindful to keep it focused.

As you say, if leway is provided for the subject :)

If Cersei finds the cloak she will definitely be convinced of some conspiracy against her...because, after all, everything is a conspiracy against her.

the world revolves around her. She would somehow find a way to involve Tyrion into it as well.

She'll think he was Tyrion's spy and came back to kill Joff or help them escape.

I seriously doubt she would think it truly was.....just what it was

:agree:

[1234567]

I second Brash's previous statement. Any problems etc, please PM us.

[bgona]

_{Before leaving this chapter (my favorite), I must exposed the question that I alwys make: Why doesn´t Sansa leave with The Hound? She was anxious for leaving KL before the battle (pussing Dontos to escape), now she has the additional fear if battle is lost she will lose her head, and even that she didn´t escape! Why?}

_{And why if Ser Ilyan it´s there to execute her if battle is los he didn´t even show up when people was thinking that it was lost? Maybe waiting until an official reconigtion?}

_{Edit: small size letter.}

[adreamer]

Was there an actual offer? Well certainly there was something like, but it's a bit speculative. Besides after Sandor explained to Sansa how he can protect her (I guess that was the offer, right?), he tried to kiss her (probably). So the offer was like - I can take you with me, but you have to come like my girl. I don't think Sansa could made that commitment at that point. Not to mention that "north, somewhere, anywhere" doesn't sound like a plan, while Dontos was offering to take her home and was talking about a ship.

And Sandor was not quite consistent that night - first he threaten to kill her, then at some point came the offer (?), then again threaten to kill her, then he left ?!!!? :dunno:

So I think she actually didn't have much choice.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Hmm......run off with a completely WASTED DRUNK man who just deserted the KG, has no idea where he is going and what he is going to do, rambled nonsense and stuck a knife to her throat.

Yep....sounds like a plan!