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Angalin

R+L=J v.21

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From the last thread:

There was a good chance that they did know. My feeling is that Ned knew that there was something sensitive at the tower; otherwise, why did he only take six guys to rescue his sister, not his whole army. I also think that the Kingsguard were clued in to Ned's arrival; it seems that they were prepared for battle. I think that Ashara likely sent a raven to the Tower of Joy after talking with Ned, and I think that Ned expected a battle, but promised Ashara that he would talk them down. I think that the fight at the Tower of Joy was more about Jon's future than his life. The Kingsguard were fighting for Jon's rights as the King of Westros; they wanted him proclaimed king. Ned was willing to protect Jon, but he wasn't going to declare him the rightful king.

I don't think Ned knew about Jon until after the fight with the kingsguard. Because I believe his promise to lyanna was to raise Jon as his own. I believe he only knew that his sister was there and that the kingsguard were there for her. This would make sense as to Ned thinking he would find them at the other locations where the war was going on. He knew lyanna was there but based on his confusion about where the KG has been I don't think he knew they were protecting the heir.

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I believe Ned's remarks about looking for them in other places were testing comments meant to determine what intentions the 3 KGs had for the child and whether or not Rhaegar had let it be known that he had married Lyanna or legitimized her child. Ned couldn't have been sure of this before talking to someone about it, so I read that as his feeling the KG out on the subject.

The KG telling him that they were where they were supposed to be indicated that they considered the child to be the heir (therefore, Rhaegar either married Lyanna or legitimized Jon in some way). They did not consider the war to be over, and they would put Ned in the middle as either having to turncoat on Robert or become a kinslayer. Ned made another decision: raise Jon in relative obscurity (which meant that the KG had to die, as they wouldn't bend the knee).

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Could Lyanna really be sure that Ned wouldn't harm her and/or her child? We do not know what Ned did or didn't know about her affair with Rhaegar; if she went willingly and Ned learned once he returned to the north to call his banners, he might hold her responsible for Brandon and Rickard's deaths. If he didn't, he might hate Rhaegar with the same passion as Robert and want his child dead. Truly, predicting what Ned would do was no safe bet.

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Lyanna was not responsible for the way Brandon handled the situation, nor was she responsible for the way Aerys handled Brandon's rashness.

There were legitimate avenues open to House Stark that would not have had these results. Brandon or (much more likely) Rickard would only have had to petition the king for an audience on the matter. Instead, Brandon threatened the crown prince's life. Lya isn't at fault there, and Ned seems to put the blame squarely at Aerys's feet in his flashbacks. Why would she feel responsible? For all we know, she was forced to go with Rhaegar, and whatever the reality, that's the story that would have been bandied about. Ned does not even seem to blame Rhaegar. No, Lya couldn't have known that, but she does know her brother.

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Could Lyanna really be sure that Ned wouldn't harm her and/or her child? We do not know what Ned did or didn't know about her affair with Rhaegar; if she went willingly and Ned learned once he returned to the north to call his banners, he might hold her responsible for Brandon and Rickard's deaths. If he didn't, he might hate Rhaegar with the same passion as Robert and want his child dead. Truly, predicting what Ned would do was no safe bet.

It has probably been addresed by other posters, but I find it strange that Ned named his sons after his best friend (and king), his brother and his father, but hasn't named either of his daughters after his sister. This may indicate some level of resentment towards Lyanna, despite the fact that he loved her. I'm guessing this might be an indication that she eloped with Rhaegar and was not abducted. But whether he already knew of this at the time of the rebellion or he found out at the ToJ, I do not know.

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Lyanna was not responsible for the way Brandon handled the situation, nor was she responsible for the way Aerys handled Brandon's rashness.

There were legitimate avenues open to House Stark that would not have had these results. Brandon or (much more likely) Rickard would only have had to petition the king for an audience on the matter. Instead, Brandon threatened the crown prince's life. Lya isn't at fault there, and Ned seems to put the blame squarely at Aerys's feet in his flashbacks. Why would she feel responsible? For all we know, she was forced to go with Rhaegar, and whatever the reality, that's the story that would have been bandied about. Ned does not even seem to blame Rhaegar. No, Lya couldn't have known that, but she does know her brother.

If - IF! - she went willingly, she was responsible for what followed similarly as Sansa was responsible for what followed after she told Cersei of Ned's plans. Their actions set in motion something they can't have predicted but it was THEIR actions nonetheless. I do not blame them, and I believe neither did Ned, but Lyanna still may have felt guilty the way people do for such mistakes, and can't have been sure how Ned would respond. His principles versus his love for her had probably never clashed before, and definitely not to such an extent. She did fear something before he made that promise to her, which I read that she wasn't sure whether he would promise that or not.

It has probably been addresed by other posters, but I find it strange that Ned named his sons after his best friend (and king), his brother and his father, but hasn't named either of his daughters after his sister. This may indicate some level of resentment towards Lyanna, despite the fact that he loved her. I'm guessing this might be an indication that she eloped with Rhaegar and was not abducted. But whether he already knew of this at the time of the rebellion or he found out at the ToJ, I do not know.

Ah. I never thought about that... Though, it might be just due to the need for secrecy - if he named his daughter Lyanna, someone might naturally start looking after similarities in appearance, then, quite naturally again, look at the other children for comparison.... uh-oh. Also, since her end was so tragical, he might not want to name his children after her so as not to bring them similar fate.

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Ah. I never thought about that... Though, it might be just due to the need for secrecy - if he named his daughter Lyanna, someone might naturally start looking after similarities in appearance, then, quite naturally again, look at the other children for comparison.... uh-oh. Also, since her end was so tragical, he might not want to name his children after her so as not to bring them similar fate.

Well, one might argue that his brother and father also met a tragical end. And I don't think people would have found it strange if Ned named one of his daughters after his sister. She was supposedly a victim after all. And Jon has the Stark look, so he would hold up to scrutiny.

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Sansa didn't tell Cersei anything she wasn't already well aware of, though. She says this to Sansa to make her complicit, and therefore, more tractable. Ned says in the previous chapter that he expected Cersei to act quickly after Robert died, and he was not surprised that she had done so. We also know that LF has already betrayed him. You can't trust Cersei on the matter.

Was Jason responsible for the death of his children at Medea's hands? Like Lyanna, he may have done something to cause the reaction in Medea, but he is not responsible for her viciousness or insanity. Likewise, Lyanna is not responsible for the actions of a madman. Perhaps she may feel guilty anyway, but she certainly is not to blame for anyone else's actions but her own, IMO.

By your reason, the blame can be continually deferred in the equation:

X would not have done Y if Z. Z would not have happened if A had not done B to C.

And so on.

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Sansa didn't tell Cersei anything she wasn't already well aware of, though. She says this to Sansa to make her complicit, and therefore, more tractable. Ned says in the previous chapter that he expected Cersei to act quickly after Robert died, and he was not surprised that she had done so. We also know that LF has already betrayed him. You can't trust Cersei on the matter.

Was Jason responsible for the death of his children at Medea's hands? Like Lyanna, he may have done something to cause the reaction in Medea, but he is not responsible for her viciousness or insanity. Likewise, Lyanna is not responsible for the actions of a madman. Perhaps she may feel guilty anyway, but she certainly is not to blame for anyone else's actions but her own, IMO.

By your reason, the blame can be continually deferred in the equation:

X would not have done Y if Z. Z would not have happened if A had not done B to C.

And so on.

From an objective point of view you are correct. But people are not always objective and Ned Stark is a man that places honor above all else (usually). From his point of view Lyanna's eloping with Rhaegar while she was betrothed to Robert might not be considered an honorable action. So he might blame her, at least in part, for everything that's happened.

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It has probably been addresed by other posters, but I find it strange that Ned named his sons after his best friend (and king), his brother and his father, but hasn't named either of his daughters after his sister. This may indicate some level of resentment towards Lyanna, despite the fact that he loved her. I'm guessing this might be an indication that she eloped with Rhaegar and was not abducted. But whether he already knew of this at the time of the rebellion or he found out at the ToJ, I do not know.

From an objective point of view you are correct. But people are not always objective and Ned Stark is a man that places honor above all else (usually). From his point of view Lyanna's eloping with Rhaegar while she was betrothed to Robert might not be considered an honorable action. So he might blame her, at least in part, for everything that's happened.

It might not be blame, just that Lyanna looms too large in his memory. He may not have wanted to name his eldest daughter Lyanna so that he did not think of his sister every time he looked at her, he wants his daughter to be her own person.

The men he named his sons after were important to him too, but perhaps less overwhelming so. Besides the fact that the names Ned gives his son are not exactly the same as the person they are honouring; Robb and Rickon get variants, Ned probably called Jon Arryn 'my lord' and not 'Jon' during his childhood, and Bran has an old family name not specifically linked to Ned's brother Brandon.

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It has probably been addresed by other posters, but I find it strange that Ned named his sons after his best friend (and king), his brother and his father, but hasn't named either of his daughters after his sister. This may indicate some level of resentment towards Lyanna, despite the fact that he loved her. I'm guessing this might be an indication that she eloped with Rhaegar and was not abducted. But whether he already knew of this at the time of the rebellion or he found out at the ToJ, I do not know.

I always thought he didn't name any daughter after Lyanna because a new reminder of all that happened to her would be too painful, and he already had to look at Jon's face everyday and not tell him his story.

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Could Lyanna really be sure that Ned wouldn't harm her and/or her child? We do not know what Ned did or didn't know about her affair with Rhaegar; if she went willingly and Ned learned once he returned to the north to call his banners, he might hold her responsible for Brandon and Rickard's deaths. If he didn't, he might hate Rhaegar with the same passion as Robert and want his child dead. Truly, predicting what Ned would do was no safe bet.

That's why she made him promise to keep Jon safe. She couldn't be sure what Ned's intensions were, but as soon as he promised her to keep Jon safe/Jon's identity secret she could be sure that he will stick to his words. That's why all fear disappeared from her eyes when Ned made his promises. And since she was dieing already, harming HER wasn't an option for Ned.

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I find it hard to believe that Ned would have killed a family member, honor or no. Lyanna could have been doomed to a life of Silent Sisters, or something, but that he would execute her? Surely not.

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I always thought he didn't name any daughter after Lyanna because a new reminder of all that happened to her would be too painful, and he already had to look at Jon's face everyday and not tell him his story.

My theory is, of course, pure speculation. I'm afraid we will never find out Ned's feelings towards Lyanna and whether he blames her or not. There is a limit after all to what Howland Reed can tell us.

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I actually wouldn't be surprised if there was some small measure of resentment from Ned about Lyanna. She, on her death bed, made him promise to betray his honor and his wife and live a lie to possibly the end of his days. There was far too much at stake to even tell his wife the truth, much less his best friend. That's a lot of pressure on a person - puts a strain on a brand new marriage, has him raising a child that grows up hearing from the only maternal figure he's got that he's lesser and not worthy while in reality he's a king they all should be serving, has to look into this child's face every day and lie to him, etc. He basically has to live in fear and within a lie in order to fulfill this promise to a dying woman.

That is a huge, huge undertaking, especially for someone like Ned to whom honor is everything.

I'm sure he loved his sister a great deal but it'd be only human to have some sort of resentment/anger at her.

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Brandon would not have went to KL to kill rhaegar if lyanna didn't leave with rhaegar ( willingly or not). Aerys would not have killed Rickard if Brandon didn't go to KL. Ned and Robert and Jon arryn would not have called their banners if aerys didn't demand Ned and Roberts heads. The war would not have happened if Ned and Robert and Jon arryn call their banners. The war would not have happened if lyanna did not leave with rhaegar (willingly or not).

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The war would never have happened if Aerys hadn't have killed Rickard.

The war would never have happened if Brandon hadn't gone to KL.

The war would never have happened if Rhaegar never heard of TPTWP.

The war would never have happened if Rhaegar never met Lyanna.

The war would never have happened if the Targs never conquered Westeros.

And on and on.

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well my mom watched the series for the first time yesterday and she asked me if jon was really ned's son. that goes to show how obvious this is.

in regards to lyanna being responsible for the deaths, i believe aerys would have came up with a different excuse to kill them. he would have tortured and/or murdered the two for being traitors. he was the mad king, after all. and she's definitley not to blame for anyone's death if she was kidnapped.

if however, she wasn't , why wouldn't she just explain to everyone that she was in love with rhaegar and/or carrying his child? it couldn't have been THAT shocking to call off a betrothal. rhaegar was the prince, wouldn't he be entitled to whoever he wanted?

this has probably been discussed but i'm new :)

also, i think i've read somewhere that rhaegar was going to do something about aerys anyway. don't quote me on that though. if he wasn't, i think someone would have. somebody did something with joffrey.

sorry that i've gone off topic!

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Brandon would not have went to KL to kill rhaegar if lyanna didn't leave with rhaegar ( willingly or not). Aerys would not have killed Rickard if Brandon didn't go to KL. Ned and Robert and Jon arryn would not have called their banners if aerys didn't demand Ned and Roberts heads. The war would not have happened if Ned and Robert and Jon arryn call their banners. The war would not have happened if lyanna did not leave with rhaegar (willingly or not).

We can't know that for sure. I won't even go into the conspiracy theories, just mention that Rhaegar planned to do some reforms in Westeros, maybe even overthrow Aerys. Aerys was displeasing many of the lords with his madness, Varys was feeding him with information against half of Westerosi families, and against Rhaegar himself. The way I see it, it wouldn't take long anyway for Aerys to start a war on his own, that could have killed the same people that died in the course of events. Or, he could have disinherited Rhaegar, who could have started a war to have his right back. Or worse - he could have done nothing, Aerys could die soon (too much of a Nero to live that long), and VISERYS would take the throne, imagine what would have happened then!

The way I see things, Rhaegar and Lyanna actually saved Westeros from a really worse fate! :eek:

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if however, she wasn't , why wouldn't she just explain to everyone that she was in love with rhaegar and/or carrying his child? it couldn't have been THAT shocking to call off a betrothal. rhaegar was the prince, wouldn't he be entitled to whoever he wanted?

first of all, welcome ;)

I believe the shocking part was not actually calling off the betrothal but the reason. Not only Lyanna as a female was not expected to have a word on whom she was going to marry but having a relationship with the realm's prince who was also married with children, well this would be shocking even nowadays!!!!

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