R+L=J v.21

[imany]

From the book:

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like...”

There is only one way Ned can answer that question from Robert.

The thing that makes me curious about Wylla is that she must have been pregnant, or recently pregnant, and then pregnant again at the time of Edric Dayne's birth, if she was a wet nurse. So was she married? Or like Pia? Or having an affair with someone, or some such? Wylla must have had to sacrifice something to agree to this.

[Ygrain]

The thing that makes me curious about Wylla is that she must have been pregnant, or recently pregnant, and then pregnant again at the time of Edric Dayne's birth, if she was a wet nurse. So was she married? Or like Pia? Or having an affair with someone, or some such? Wylla must have had to sacrifice something to agree to this.

To become a wetnurse, she only needed to get pregnant once, and not stop nursing ever since.

[Lady Octarina]

To become a wetnurse, she only needed to get pregnant once, and not stop nursing ever since.

Yeah, and I was under the impression Ned Dayne is around 12 when Arya meets him; isn't that the average age of squires? So, he'd only be three years older than Jon, it's not impossible she was nursing from the same pregnancy.

[Screaming Knight]

From the book:

There is only one way Ned can answer that question from Robert.

The thing that makes me curious about Wylla is that she must have been pregnant, or recently pregnant, and then pregnant again at the time of Edric Dayne's birth, if she was a wet nurse. So was she married? Or like Pia? Or having an affair with someone, or some such? Wylla must have had to sacrifice something to agree to this.

Do you think wylla is jon's mother? Me, being of the R+L=J opinion, thinks he was answering like this: He did know the woman Robert was talking about, Wylla. I just think that's the lie Ned tells people and to me doesnt matter how he answers or if he is lying. This lie is a part of upholding the promise he made to lyanna. Wylla could've been pregnant with anyones baby. She has milk and Jon and edric dayne were nursed by her making them milk brothers. That's just an opinion obviously. I assume that initially Ned told Robert this woman wylla was his bastards mother so he's just corrorborating what Robert already thinks. Edric did confirm wylla is alive right? Because Ned talks about her in the past tense and at first I thought she was dead. Like many other people, hearin what she has to say would open or close an entire other can of worms.

[Ygrain]

Yeah, and I was under the impression Ned Dayne is around 12 when Arya meets him; isn't that the average age of squires? So, he'd only be three years older than Jon, it's not impossible she was nursing from the same pregnancy.

Yup, but... whom was she nursing meanwhile? I mean, she probably took care of Jon for some time, but unless Edric was born just around the time when Ned sent Jon to Winterfell, we have a gap there, unless she took up nursing another Dayne baby.

[imany]

Do you think wylla is jon's mother?

I am just saying that it is a loaded question and Ned can only answer one way. It could be true, and it could be a fabricated lie. The earlier quote left out that Robert directly asked who the father of Ned's bastard was, which is NOT the same thing as just asking who his 'common girl' was.

Edit: and ah, I thought you would ... run out of milk after awhile. I guess you could feed at least 3 years and 11 months based on a google search. That would account for the age difference between Jon and Edric, I think, if Wylla kept nursing some other kids. How old is Darkstar :o

[Screaming Knight]

I am just saying that it is a loaded question and Ned can only answer one way. It could be true, and it could be a fabricated lie. The earlier quote left out that Robert directly asked who the father of Ned's bastard was, which is NOT the same thing as just asking who his 'common girl' was.

Edit: and ah, I thought you would ... run out of milk after awhile. I guess you could feed at least 3 years and 11 months based on a google search. That would account for the age difference between Jon and Edric, I think, if Wylla kept nursing some other kids. How old is Darkstar :o

I was just curious what your prediction was. I never try to look at scientific facts to prove or disprove any of the really debatable topics. When the time comes to reveal it, whatever would need to be written in to give it beyond a reasonable doubt proof can be written in. We don't know enough about wylla to say who or how many times she was pregnant in a certain amount of years. Just making assumptions based on what I feel will be the end result.

Woman

You

Live to

Lie

About

I think this is how Ned came up with her name.

[Ygrain]

I thought that Wylla may have been derived from Willow, which would quite make sense as a female name, and it needn't be region-specific.

[Screaming Knight]

I thought that Wylla may have been derived from Willow, which would quite make sense as a female name, and it needn't be region-specific.

There's no acronym for Willow though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There's no acronym for Willow though.

... I'd be shocked if Wylla was an acronym at all or anything other than a real woman's name.

[Screaming Knight]

... I'd be shocked if Wylla was an acronym at all or anything other than a real woman's name.

Not as shocked as I would be. Didn't think I had to clarify that as a joke.Unless you were also joking. Ned isn't known for much of a sense of humor. Don't think he'd be creating acronyms for his diversion.

[Lady Octarina]

Yup, but... whom was she nursing meanwhile? I mean, she probably took care of Jon for some time, but unless Edric was born just around the time when Ned sent Jon to Winterfell, we have a gap there, unless she took up nursing another Dayne baby.

Maybe she was the official wet-nurse at Starfall and kept breastfeeding all the babies that were born there? lol

Poor woman, but maybe she had a baby already, slightly older than Jon, a year, perhaps? I do wonder if GRRM will remember to explain this problem...

How old is Darkstar :o

I assumed he was older than Arianne, no?

[Alia of the knife]

To become a wetnurse, she only needed to get pregnant once, and not stop nursing ever since.

OMG. :o

[Alia of the knife]

Maybe she was the official wet-nurse at Starfall and kept breastfeeding all the babies that were born there? lol

Poor woman, but maybe she had a baby already, slightly older than Jon, a year, perhaps? I do wonder if GRRM will remember to explain this problem...

I assumed he was older than Arianne, no?

He's either a little older, or right around her age.

[corbon]

I am just saying that it is a loaded question and Ned can only answer one way. It could be true, and it could be a fabricated lie. The earlier quote left out that Robert directly asked who the father of Ned's bastard was, which is NOT the same thing as just asking who his 'common girl' was.

<Sigh> Go back and read it properly. You quoted the full passage, you ought to be able to read it. Robert's reference to "You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" is actually a statement, not a question despite the question mark. Adding a question mark to the statement (you know the one I mean) just makes it refer directly to the previous question (what was her name, that common girl of yours).

Robert has asked a question, and appended several statements to it.

The question is, "what was her name?" The appended statements are "that common girl of yours" and "your bastard's mother". Both are assumptions of Robert as he attempts to clarify who the question is about. The assumptive statements lead Ned to know who Robert means, even if the statements are incorrect. So Ned answers the question that Robert asked, ignoring the false statements. Honestly, this is Truth at All Times (If Possible), TAT(IP)101.

"You told me once" refers to the name of the woman, Wylla. It does not imply that Ned ever told Robert directly that Wylla was Jon's mother, just that once, as now, Ned told Robert Wylla's name, possibly using the same technique as now when Robert made some false assumptions.

It is possible that Ned once told Robert flat out that Jon was his bastard and Wylla was the mother. But we have no actual evidence of any such thing.

It is also possible, perhaps probable (since if fits both characters better and how we have seen them interact on this subject), that Robert merely heard Ned was keeping a common girl with a child, jumped to conclusions and made similar statement where Ned again (well, for the first time) merely told him that the woman's name was Wylla.

We don't know for sure. But we do know that Ned did not, during the conversation we saw, give Robert any actual information other than the woman's name that Robert was trying to remember was Wylla (and he would sooner not speak of her).

Maybe she was the official wet-nurse at Starfall and kept breastfeeding all the babies that were born there? lol

Poor woman, but maybe she had a baby already, slightly older than Jon, a year, perhaps? I do wonder if GRRM will remember to explain this problem...

Why is it a problem. She is a minor character. Any kids she had are even more minor, so minor as to be totally unimportant. There is a high infant mortality rate in Westeros (given historical similarities) so any lack of children is easily explained. And it is easy enough for a woman to keep nursing if the nursing doesn't stop (especially if she was initially chosen as a naturally good nurser) - and even if it does stop for a short while it can be continued by self-nursing (squeezing milk out) for a while (say when another birth is expected within a few months). There simply isn't any problem here except the ignorance of a few readers.

How old is Darkstar

I don't believe we have any indication (but I am not sure of this).

I thought he was one of Arianne's growing-up companions, but it appears that was only Spotted Sylva and the river-boy. Darkstar seems to have attached himself to her faction relatively recently, which means we really have no actual clues. Could be anywhere from 20-30ish - one assumes that as the most dangerous man in Dhorne if he was around during Robert's rebelliion we would have heard of him, and he must have had a few years of adulthood to get that rep. But it's pretty much still just a guess.

[Jem]

Re the wet nurse thing: some women hired themselves out as professional wet nurses after having a baby of their own. Potentially an adolescent girl/woman could have a baby and then go on to provide wet nurse services continuously until she reached menopause (and apparently there are some reported cases of women breast feeding long after menopause). It was a great career opportunity for a poor woman. Not only could she make good money out of it, she would be well housed and cared for and, most importantly, she would be fed really well.

[corbon]

Re the wet nurse thing: some women hired themselves out as professional wet nurses after having a baby of their own. Potentially an adolescent girl/woman could have a baby and then go on to provide wet nurse services continuously until she reached menopause (and apparently there are some reported cases of women breast feeding long after menopause). It was a great career opportunity for a poor woman. Not only could she make good money out of it, she would be well housed and cared for and, most importantly, she would be fed really well.

Yeah, its a pretty cushy job considering some of the medieval alternatives...

[imany]

<Sigh> Go back and read it properly. You quoted the full passage, you ought to be able to read it. Robert's reference to "You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" is actually a statement, not a question despite the question mark. Adding a question mark to the statement (you know the one I mean) just makes it refer directly to the previous question (what was her name, that common girl of yours).

Uhh, while I don't appreciate having my reading comprehension insulted, I'm going to answer this anyway. I pulled the quote directly from the book. As it reads, Robert spit out a whole paragraph of questions, the last of which specifically asked about the bastard. Regardless of Jon's parentage, Ned only had one answer for that question--true, or not. I don't know how else to say it so that you understand.

Edit: the answer to this question would have been the same regardless of whether or not "your bastard's mother?" had been tacked on, in all likelihood. However, it DOES ENSURE that Ned and Robert are referring to Jon's mother, and not, say, Ashara Dayne, who others say he had a fling with. This means nothing more or less than Ned had an answer ready for who Jon's mother was for Robert (and probably anyone else who would ask, who he would be obligated to answer.)

[corbon]

Uhh, while I don't appreciate having my reading comprehension insulted, I'm going to answer this anyway. I pulled the quote directly from the book. As it reads, Robert spit out a whole paragraph of questions, the last of which specifically asked about the bastard. Regardless of Jon's parentage, Ned only had one answer for that question--true, or not. I don't know how else to say it so that you understand.

Sorry you thought it was an insult, I didn't mean it that way. I assumed you were just reading lazily/quickly, rather than actually not comprehending it after careful reading. I've just been over this many times before.

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

The first question:

And yet there was that one time... what was her name, that common girl of yours?

The question is "what was her name". "That common girl of yours" is a claritive statement Robert appends to his question so that Ned is clear who he is talking about.

Becca?

The same question. 'Is that the name of the girl I am talking about?' But then Robert answers it himself.

Yours was... Aleena? No.

Again, same question still, but Robert answers it himself.

You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

Another claritive statement, The girl Robert means is Ned's bastard's mother, as identified by Robert, not Ned.

This has a question mark, but it isn't a question itself - there is no question there, only a statement*. The question mark shows that it is a(nother) claritive statement to the question under consideration (still "what was her name")since Robert has rambled somewhat.

“Her name was Wylla,”

And Ned replies to the only question so far asked. "What was her name?"

*An alternative interpretation, though it doesn't fit the natural flow of conversation well, is that Robert is actually asking here if Ned knows the one he means. But even here, "your bastard's mother" is a claritive statement not the question itself.

And Ned doesn't answer this at all anyway. He answers only the first question, since the answer he gives isn't an answer to the possible second question, though it does provide an indirect answer.

There simply isn't any way to interprete "your bastard's mother" as a question be Robert here.

[Jem]

This whole Wylla thing is just another example of how tricksy GRRM is.

We think Ned has said that Jon's mother is Wylla.

We think that Barristan Selmy said that Ashara slept with a Stark at Harrenhal

We think that Varys lied to Kevan at the end of ADWD

None of these things are true. They are all just written in a way that makes us connect the dots in an incorrect way. We make assumptions and we swear black and blue that X said Y, but if you read the text, it's not true.