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R+L=J v.21


Angalin

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I have another question. Why almost everybody in the kingdom thinks that Ned's bastard's mother is supposed to be Ashara, even Cersei makes such an assumption and Cat, too (Selmy thinks that she had a stillborn girl, though), but not Robert? Robert thinks it is Wylla, which is probably what Ned told him once. Robert is sure it is not Ashara, a highborn, which is more appropriate for Ned Stark, but some common girl, I presume because he knew that nothing happened between Ned and Ashara. Starfall is the only place where people think that Jon is Wylla's son, because they know the truth of what happened to Ashara and her child and because Wylla still works there and supports that theory. All this seem too complicated and twisted. My question is why lie to Robert about Jon's mother?

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I have another question. Why almost everybody in the kingdom thinks that Ned's bastard's mother is supposed to be Ashara, even Cersei makes such an assumption and Cat, too (Selmy thinks that she had a stillborn girl, though), but not Robert?

Do the math.

Ned disappears after the war.

Ned reappears at Starfall whereupon the young lady of the house commits suicide. Ned then leaves Starfall with a child, reputed to be his bastard.

Further, it is possible that the young lady suicide had rumours of dishonourment by a Stark (Ned or Brandon, but Brandon isn't at Starfall postwar acting, Ned is) at the great tourney at Harrenhal a few years back.

Everyone anywhere who doesn't know better does the math and comes to the same conclusion.

Robert? Robert's math = see available babe (common or noble), fuck available babe, forget the consequences. But he knows Ned doesn't forget consequences. So when he sees/hears Ned is trailing around a common woman with a babe, his math is different. Roberts view is; Ned -> see available babe, (finally!) lose control and fuck available babe, carry around the consequences.

And Robert was at Harrenhal. He might actually know if Ashara was with Brandon instead of Ned, so not automatically factor old Ashara-rumours into his thinking.

Robert thinks it is Wylla, which is probably what Ned told him once. Robert is sure it is not Ashara, a highborn, which is more appropriate for Ned Stark, but some common girl, I presume because he knew that nothing happened between Ned and Ashara. Starfall is the only place where people think that Jon is Wylla's son, because they know the truth of what happened to Ashara and her child and because Wylla still works there and supports that theory. All this seem too complicated and twisted. My question is why lie to Robert about Jon's mother?

Note that there is no evidence that Ned ever told Robert outright that Jon was his son. It is entirely ossible, even probably given the way these two intereact, that Robert made big, bluff, ribald, ignorant assumptions and Ned just didn't disabuse him.

Aside from the above, Robert might also assume it wasn't Ashara because he might assume Ned's honour would have demanded he marry her if that was the case (like Robb and Jeyne). But that Honour would not extend to the unthinkably low level of marrying a mere common woman, which is practically impossible.

Because if Jon's mother is Lyanna, then the father must be Rhaegar, which would put Jon's (and Ned and his family, for treason) life in mortal danger from Robert.

If the other was anyone else, not much of a reason at all.

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Do the math.

Ned disappears after the war.

Ned reappears at Starfall whereupon the young lady of the house commits suicide. Ned then leaves Starfall with a child, reputed to be his bastard.

Further, it is possible that the young lady suicide had rumours of dishonourment by a Stark (Ned or Brandon, but Brandon isn't at Starfall postwar acting, Ned is) at the great tourney at Harrenhal a few years back.

Everyone anywhere who doesn't know better does the math and comes to the same conclusion.

Robert? Robert's math = see available babe (common or noble), fuck available babe, forget the consequences. But he knows Ned doesn't forget consequences. So when he sees/hears Ned is trailing around a common woman with a babe, his math is different. Roberts view is; Ned -> see available babe, (finally!) lose control and fuck available babe, carry around the consequences.

And Robert was at Harrenhal. He might actually know if Ashara was with Brandon instead of Ned, so not automatically factor old Ashara-rumours into his thinking.

Note that there is no evidence that Ned ever told Robert outright that Jon was his son. It is entirely ossible, even probably given the way these two intereact, that Robert made big, bluff, ribald, ignorant assumptions and Ned just didn't disabuse him.

Aside from the above, Robert might also assume it wasn't Ashara because he might assume Ned's honour would have demanded he marry her if that was the case (like Robb and Jeyne). But that Honour would not extend to the unthinkably low level of marrying a mere common woman, which is practically impossible.

Because if Jon's mother is Lyanna, then the father must be Rhaegar, which would put Jon's (and Ned and his family, for treason) life in mortal danger from Robert.

If the other was anyone else, not much of a reason at all.

I was actually asking question because I think that Ned was hiding the truth from his friend Robert because it as you said "would put Jon's (and Ned and his family, for treason) life in mortal danger from Robert". I thought that Robert would knew whether Ned had anything with Ashara or not, and I actually think that if Ned dishonored Ashara, he would have married her anyway at any circumstances, like Robb did with Jeyne, but it didn't happen. So Robert knew it wasn't Ashara, while some think opposite. I presume Wylla was a cover story specifically for Robert and for those in Starfall, but not to the others, because most think it was Ashara, even Cat and Cersei, probably they knew that Ned wouldn't get involved with a common girl (that's just my assumption, though). All this just seem too complex.

Even if Ned was covering Ashara's honor (which is also a possibility), why would he lie to Robert, who is not a moralist, while the half of the kingdom think that they had an affair? It is probably rhetorical question. I am just writing my thoughts.

By the way I have always wondered why Daynes have so much respect for Ned, when he killed Arthur and presumable was Ashara's dishonor, Ned Dayne is even called in honor of Eddard Stark. It seems strange. I also think it is connected to this whole R+L=J story (which I believe is true).

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By the way I have always wondered why Daynes have so much respect for Ned, when he killed Arthur and presumable was Ashara's dishonor, Ned Dayne is even called in honor of Eddard Stark. It seems strange. I also think it is connected to this whole R+L=J story (which I believe is true).

Is it actually ever mentioned anywhere that he was called after The Ned? I don't think we have sufficient information abot the use of the nick in Westeros. Normally, it would go as a homely form of any Ed- name, such as Eddard, Edwyn, Edric, whatever, similarly as Albert, Alwin, Alistair and Alexander would be Al etc.

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Is it actually ever mentioned anywhere that he was called after The Ned? I don't think we have sufficient information abot the use of the nick in Westeros. Normally, it would go as a homely form of any Ed- name, such as Eddard, Edwyn, Edric, whatever, similarly as Albert, Alwin, Alistair and Alexander would be Al etc.

Yes, my bad. I just made an assumption because boy wanted to speak to Ned on the tourney in KL, but didn't know what to say. I am aware of short names, but it was Arya who said that her father was also called Ned and Dayne answered that he knows that (though, Ned Dayne = Edric Dayne). Plus we have many examples in the book when people are named in honor of somebody, but the name is not the same - just very similar.

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Is it actually ever mentioned anywhere that he was called after The Ned? I don't think we have sufficient information abot the use of the nick in Westeros. Normally, it would go as a homely form of any Ed- name, such as Eddard, Edwyn, Edric, whatever, similarly as Albert, Alwin, Alistair and Alexander would be Al etc.

No. And it could very well be the 'Al'- thing. Although we never hear Edmure called Ned, nor Edric Storm, nor other persons who have names starting with Ed.

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No. And it could very well be the 'Al'- thing. Although we never hear Edmure called Ned, nor Edric Storm, nor other persons who have names starting with Ed.

No, we don't. However, we do not know what Edric may have been called back at Storm's End, by people who loved him well.

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I'm ashamed to say I completely missed this theory when I read the books. It was only when I visited this forum for the first time that it all clicked into place!

I'm also a bit puzzled as to why the boy Arya speaks to was named after Ned. It could be connected to the R+L=J theory, but if it was would that imply that someone else knows what happened at the tower of joy? I thought it was only Howland Reed that really knows, unless I'm mistaken...

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I'm ashamed to say I completely missed this theory when I read the books. It was only when I visited this forum for the first time that it all clicked into place!

I'm also a bit puzzled as to why the boy Arya speaks to was named after Ned. It could be connected to the R+L=J theory, but if it was would that imply that someone else knows what happened at the tower of joy? I thought it was only Howland Reed that really knows, unless I'm mistaken...

I don't think he's really named after Ned. His full name is Edric, not Eddard. If anything the shared nickname is probably a coincidence or even a red herring.

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I don't think he's really named after Ned. His full name is Edric, not Eddard. If anything the shared nickname is probably a coincidence or even a red herring.

Thanks for clearing that up, it did seem odd!.

I think there is a strong possibility that the R+L=J theory is true and there are a few intentional red herrings around.

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I don't think he's really named after Ned. His full name is Edric, not Eddard. If anything the shared nickname is probably a coincidence or even a red herring.

Agreed completely.

But just in case it is an intended shared nickname...

The probability is that the Daynes have no beef at all with Ned.

Brandon is a higher odds chance for dishonouring Ashara than Ned when you look at the accumulated evidence after ADwD..

She may have looked to Ned for help afterwards (and possibly gotten it in some way, we have no idea).

Ned killed Arthur in war, nothing personal, but was then honourable enough to return the sword Dawn to the Daynes.

Oh, and Ashara probably never committed suicide either (faking her death and fleeing to Essos on a shop from KL with baby Aegon).

None of these items are confirmed facts, but all are reasonable odds of being true (though Ashara looking to Ned is fairly weak supposition).

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I don't think he's really named after Ned. His full name is Edric, not Eddard. If anything the shared nickname is probably a coincidence or even a red herring.

That's true, but I do find it funny that there are two Edric's who could have been named after Ned: Dayne and Robert's bastard. But I agree they're probably red herrings.

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That's true, but I do find it funny that there are two Edric's who could have been named after Ned: Dayne and Robert's bastard. But I agree they're probably red herrings.

Agreed. I don't think dayne being named edric had anything to do with Ned stark with regards to the daynes themselves but possibly Martin did it for some reason. Maybe for the reader to further solidify a connection between he and jon's "mother" or just Jon himself.
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I was soooooo proud of myself for coming up with this theory when I first read the books. Then I come here, discover that this thread is on v21, and so not only am I late to the party, but I forgot to bring a gift, too.

Here, have a drink :cheers:

Concerning Ned's nickname: I've just come across Ned Woods aka Noseless Ned in one of Asha's chapters - he's some scout or ranger, currently in Stannis' army. I didn't have the time to look for details, but it doesn't seem he's been named after The Ned :-)

BTW, is it just me, or is "Ned" felt as a sort of common name, which may be the reason why nobles would not use it as frequently?

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Anyone else pondering WHY Rhaegar went to the Trident?

I mean, he apparently had some sort of plan to retire his father and straighten out the kingdom. Why then, didn't he do it before he met the Usurper on the Trident? He could easily have placated Eddard by letting him see and talk to Lyanna, and perhaps Robert if Lyanna was able to talk to him. Plus, I have no doubt that the Targaryen army would have been in a stronger position with Kings Landing and the Rush close by. Something is missing from my perspective. Anyone care to explain this to me?

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Showing Lyanna to Robert would have been a terrible mistake. He would have killed Rhaegar and Lyanna in a fit of jealous rage, I guess. Ever talked to the jealous ex-boyfriend about his ex' new guy?

Also, it might well be that Lyanna was too far into her pregnancy to travel at that point. And the Starks and Baratheons would still have considered Rhaegar a man they could never follow once he became king.

Lastly, I don't think the rebellion was only about the abduction of Lyanna. Sure, it was the trigger that set it all off, but resentment towards king Aerys and the Targaryens was widespread even years before that.

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BTW, is it just me, or is "Ned" felt as a sort of common name, which may be the reason why nobles would not use it as frequently?

I think its just a matter of establishing a difference between life oop north where men are 'ard, and the poncy southern gits down in King's Landing :rofl:

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I agree with what theguyfromtheVale said, and I think Rhaegar couldn't start his reforms because there was a war going on, everyone was worried about something else, and if the Targaryens were seen fighting against each other maybe they would lose what support they had, because their position would be seen as weaker. He probably thought he could defeat Robert (remember he was a great knight), or maybe he thought he could calm him down, negotiate with him. It was foolish, to a certain extent, but there was little else he could have done.

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